Author Topic: Gaskets for lifter swap  (Read 578 times)

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Offline Ridgerunner

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Gaskets for lifter swap
« on: January 03, 2018, 08:00:10 AM »
'13 Roadking, under extended warranty had lifters changed twice. Now warranty is gone and 3000 miles later I have the same noisy sounding lifters as before.
I have a set of WFO Larry's lifters to replace them and as I look at the gaskets I'm wondering if I can reuse the same gaskets and O rings since they are only 3000 miles old.
I know this sounds like I'm a cheap azz but fixed income and meds for wifes medical issues causes me to ask this question.
I respect the advice from this board and I will follow that advice this time also.

Offline Pete_Vit

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Re: Gaskets for lifter swap
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2018, 08:03:03 AM »
are you sure its the lifters and not the rockers? maybe time for some rocker lockers...  :pop:

Offline Ridgerunner

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Re: Gaskets for lifter swap
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2018, 08:14:03 AM »
I already have a set on the bench ready to go, but they (rockers) are tight with no movement that I can detect. Was thinking not even using them but I probably will as it cant hurt. The rattle sound eventually quiets down after a few miles but not completely. Same as old ones but didn't when they were new.

Offline Ridgerunner

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Re: Gaskets for lifter swap
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2018, 08:16:36 AM »
Meant to say they didn't rattle when new, until they got a few thousand miles.

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Gaskets for lifter swap
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2018, 08:17:09 AM »
Actually what the rocker locker concept is, to hold the rocker shaft in place. When it rotates back and forth with the rocker arm, the shaft tapping against the bolt that holds the rockers and rocker plate down is where that tapping noise comes from.
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Offline Ridgerunner

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Re: Gaskets for lifter swap
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2018, 08:22:45 AM »
Ok, thanks. I will go ahead and install the lockers. Just in case. But i have the lifters out now so I will also replace them.
Care to offer advise on re-using gaskets and o rings? :teeth:

Online Hossamania

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Re: Gaskets for lifter swap
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2018, 08:24:38 AM »
I would not re-use the gaskets, you might get away with using the old O-rings.
Happiness does not buy money.

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Gaskets for lifter swap
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2018, 08:25:21 AM »
Ok, thanks. I will go ahead and install the lockers. Just in case. But i have the lifters out now so I will also replace them.
Care to offer advise on re-using gaskets and o rings? :teeth:

I personally always replace them.

I just don't like doing things twice. Push rod o-rings may be ok, everything else I would replace. But the push rod o-rings are cheap too...  soooo...   it's up to you, I understand being on a budget.
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Offline No Cents

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Re: Gaskets for lifter swap
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2018, 08:27:40 AM »
   I've re-used my lifter block gaskets many times. With the mileage you have on them and "if" they come off the case clean...I'd use them again. It seems most of the time the gasket usually sticks to the lifter block...but sometimes one will stick to the case. Same goes for the o-rings. Look at them closely and if they look okay...use them over again.
    :agree:   Brian is correct with what he said about the lockers locking down the shaft in the rocker arm supports. A lot of noise can come from that area. The lockers will definitely help out.
   Take a good look at the old lifters when you pull them out. Pay close attention to the rollers. Make sure one didn't go bad and cause any kind of damage to the cam.
   I've been using Larry's performance lifters that he sells...and they work great!  :up:
08 FLHX 124", wfolarry 110 heads, CR630i cams, Burns pipe, 158/152 sae

Offline Pete_Vit

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Re: Gaskets for lifter swap
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2018, 08:38:47 AM »
Ok, thanks. I will go ahead and install the lockers. Just in case. But i have the lifters out now so I will also replace them.
Care to offer advise on re-using gaskets and o rings? :teeth:

I personally always replace them.

I just don't like doing things twice. Push rod o-rings may be ok, everything else I would replace. But the push rod o-rings are cheap too...  soooo...   it's up to you, I understand being on a budget.
personally I've not had any luck reusing O rings  :crook:

Offline Ridgerunner

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Re: Gaskets for lifter swap
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2018, 09:00:57 AM »
Ok, I just installed the lockers for the front and I see what you mean. Thanks for pointing that out. I should have looked at the video closer.
I think I will go ahead and replace the gaskets based on most advice and have peace of mind.
No Cents I looked at the rollers very close because the first lifter replacement did require new cams. I didn't want that to happen again.
With low miles on these lifters I don't see any damage.
Thanks to all who commented I just needed a little push in the right direction

Offline koko3052

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Re: Gaskets for lifter swap
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2018, 09:25:52 AM »
You just mentioned that the first lifter replacement "did require new cams". Now I would think that a roller had caused that, generally meaning that the bearings had crapped or that the hard surfacing failed. Sounds to me like the engine could have used a good inside cleaning & wasn't done.
Sounds like who ever replaced the one's on warranty knew that doing it on the cheap would allow them to get out of warranty. :cry:

Online rigidthumper

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Re: Gaskets for lifter swap
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2018, 09:33:47 AM »
Since the lifters are out, it may be worth taking the time to inspect/replace the inner cam bearings, too- less than $20 for peace of mind on a known issue.
If you never measure your work, you can assume it's perfect.
Doesn't make it so.

Online kd

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Re: Gaskets for lifter swap
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2018, 09:35:35 AM »
If you disassemble the lifters and do a real close inspection for contaminates you may find out why you are getting such short service from the replacement lifters. Even if they are stock C lifters they should go farther. Finding any dirt in the lifter(s) will mean you MUST do a full cleaning of the crankcase and system.   How's the oil pressure when hot? If lower than it was it may also be an indication of contamination wear.

KD

Online les

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Re: Gaskets for lifter swap
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2018, 09:46:59 AM »
How many miles on the engine?  Does it have the lifter sound when you start it cold or after letting it sit for a couple of hours, then the sound goes away after it's hot?  If so, it might be carbon knock.  Carbon knock happens when the cylinders are short/cold and goes away after they expand and get hot.

Offline Ridgerunner

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Re: Gaskets for lifter swap
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2018, 10:00:47 AM »
31,000 miles on bike. Lifter sound when starting bike cold. Mostly gone after riding few miles. Always warm up before riding.
Got noisy around 23000 miles. New lifters installed with cams bearings etc. Noise went away.
5000 miles later noise back. New lifters installed. Noise gone again.
Now 3000 miles after that and noise is back.
I'm thinking lifters again. I'll find out.

Offline PoorUB

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Re: Gaskets for lifter swap
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2018, 10:01:28 AM »
I will reuse gaskets and o-rings, but I base the decision on price and how easy they are to replace if they leak. I will not reuse push rods tube o-rings or lifter block gaskets as the hassle out weighs the price.
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Offline No Cents

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Re: Gaskets for lifter swap
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2018, 10:08:08 AM »
31,000 miles on bike. Lifter sound when starting bike cold. Mostly gone after riding few miles. Always warm up before riding.
Got noisy around 23000 miles. New lifters installed with cams bearings etc. Noise went away.
5000 miles later noise back. New lifters installed. Noise gone again.
Now 3000 miles after that and noise is back.
I'm thinking lifters again. I'll find out.
  lifters are the best catching filter in your engine for catching debris.
If there is debris in your engine...it will find it's way into the lifters.
Did they replace the oil pump when this first failure happened?
08 FLHX 124", wfolarry 110 heads, CR630i cams, Burns pipe, 158/152 sae

Offline Ridgerunner

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Re: Gaskets for lifter swap
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2018, 10:16:20 AM »
Yes, oil pump was replaced.

Offline No Cents

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Re: Gaskets for lifter swap
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2018, 10:53:13 AM »
   for peace of mind I would be pulling the old lifters apart you just took out. Three sets of lifters in 8,000 miles isn't right. Something else is going on to cause lifters to go bad that quick. I would make sure there is no debris inside the old lifters.
If there is any debris...I'd be looking further into it, rather than just putting in another set of new lifters and thinking that will fix it.
Is there an oil cooler on your bike? Did they flush it out and the hoses? It probably wouldn't be a bad idea to drain the sump to see what comes out of it. Metal in the oiling system can and will reap havoc.

   added Later:
what all did they do to the engine when the lifter took the cam and oil pump out?
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 11:00:17 AM by No Cents »
08 FLHX 124", wfolarry 110 heads, CR630i cams, Burns pipe, 158/152 sae

Offline Pete_Vit

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Re: Gaskets for lifter swap
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2018, 11:01:05 AM »
   for piece of mind I would be pulling the old lifters apart you just took out. Three sets of lifters in 8,000 miles isn't right. Something else is going on to cause lifters to go bad that quick. I would make sure there is no debris inside the old lifters.
If there is any debris...I'd be looking further into it, rather than just putting in another set of new lifters and thinking that will fix it.
Is there an oil cooler on your bike? Did they flush it out and the hoses? It probably wouldn't be a bad idea to drain the sump to see what comes out of it. Metal in the oiling system can and will reap havoc.
that reminds me of when my EVO ICB started to go south, I was thinking lifters+Arkansas heat, I cut the filter in half and found bearing particles in there, the entire system had to be flushed only good thing that came of it was a new set timken bearings a new set of lifters and an EV23 cam.   

Offline Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers

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Re: Gaskets for lifter swap
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2018, 12:29:13 PM »
The rocker arm shaft is steel, and the plate is aluminum, due to the difference in the coefecent of expansion between the two different metals the aluminum expands almost twice that of steel. So even though your shafts are tight when cold and need to be pressed in, they will fall out if you put them in the oven.
That being said usually if the shaft is rotating and hitting the bolt when it's cold, the noise will not stop when it warms up.
What kind of lifters did they use?
Yes using old gaskets is a gamble.
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Offline Ridgerunner

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Re: Gaskets for lifter swap
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2018, 03:25:10 PM »
No cents, PM sent.

Offline Deye76

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Re: Gaskets for lifter swap
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2018, 04:31:13 PM »
Yes, oil pump was replaced.

Was the oil pan dropped and flushed?
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Offline Maddo Snr

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Re: Gaskets for lifter swap
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2018, 04:32:31 PM »
I would not re-use the gaskets, you might get away with using the old O-rings.

This ^. However, If the last mechanic greased the gaskets they may come off intact. The OEM HD viton O'rings are pretty good quality. I reused them for my recent lifter upgrade, 6 years old parts...

The four gaskets I replaced, $10 delivered from the US to Oz. Pretty cheap.

Fully agree with posters saying something else is going on in the motor. Debris gathers in hydraulic lifters in every motor. I'd drop some Wynns (no other brand) engine flush into the motor and then drop the oil. Check for unusual residues.

Re-fill with fresh oil and filter and Wynns friction proof. I've used this regime on high HP pushrod engines for years and it definitely works.

Heavy plant mechanics on this forum will know about using chemical/detergent stripping additives at oil changes and how accurately the oil assessment can diagnose engine wear.

Here's hoping the OP gets to the bottom of it, three sets of lifters tells me it's not a lifter issue, something else is taking the lifters out.

HDs are so addictive to ride, lucky they're basically engineered.
I've never been involved with ANY machine where there's so many tricks-of-the-trade required to bulletproof the machine.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 04:49:27 PM by Maddo Snr »

Offline No Cents

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Re: Gaskets for lifter swap
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2018, 04:46:14 PM »
  my same lifter block gaskets have been off and on my bike at least a half dozen times. Never had one leak.
I just make sure they come off cleanly and they didn't stick or tear when I pull the lifter block up. I make sure the gasket surface is clean and dry and no oil is on the gasket when re-assembling them. Most times the gasket will stick to the bottom of the lifter block and they come off clean. Call me a cheap ass...because I got new gaskets and O-rings sitting on the shelf. If the old ones pass my inspection...I'll re-use them again on my personal bike. Hell...I bet my p/rod tubes have been off a dozen times...and I'm still using the same O-rings.
  Ridgerunner...I got your pm.  :up:
08 FLHX 124", wfolarry 110 heads, CR630i cams, Burns pipe, 158/152 sae

Offline PoorUB

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Re: Gaskets for lifter swap
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2018, 07:02:09 PM »
Sure, but Ray, unlike many of us, you love tearing your engine apart. I think you get a cheap thrill out of an oil leak!
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Offline No Cents

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Re: Gaskets for lifter swap
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2018, 07:12:09 PM »
Sure, but Ray, unlike many of us, you love tearing your engine apart. I think you get a cheap thrill out of an oil leak!
  I don't mind doing the wrenching when it's needed.
That's not what I get my thrills from. It's riding the results that give me the thrills.  :wink:
08 FLHX 124", wfolarry 110 heads, CR630i cams, Burns pipe, 158/152 sae

Offline sfmichael

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Re: Gaskets for lifter swap
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2018, 10:17:22 PM »
  my same lifter block gaskets have been off and on my bike at least a half dozen times. Never had one leak.
I just make sure they come off cleanly and they didn't stick or tear when I pull the lifter block up. I make sure the gasket surface is clean and dry and no oil is on the gasket when re-assembling them. Most times the gasket will stick to the bottom of the lifter block and they come off clean. Call me a cheap ass...because I got new gaskets and O-rings sitting on the shelf. If the old ones pass my inspection...I'll re-use them again on my personal bike. Hell...I bet my p/rod tubes have been off a dozen times...and I'm still using the same O-rings.
  Ridgerunner...I got your pm.  :up:
 

   :agree:

low miles - I re-use  :up:

I'm also suspicious of several sets of lifters in so few miles - might need to dig deeper

and like rigid said, if cams come out I'd do inner bearings with SE replacements or equivalent
Colorado Springs, CO.

Offline No Cents

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Re: Gaskets for lifter swap
« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2018, 05:09:39 AM »
  I told the OP in a pm yesterday that I would highly suggest for him to pull the old lifters apart that he just took out of the bike. I myself would have to take them apart to see if there is any debris in them. I also told him that it doesn't seem right to me that a new set of lifters would go bad as quick as they did, and there might be more to his situation than meets the eye. I suggested for him to cut his oil filter open too...and see what the media looks like.
  Is it possible that the lifters the dealership put in his bike are that poor in quality...sure...but I would be surprised that they are that sub par and they couldn't go 3,000 miles. I do hope for his sake that the old lifters are that bad in quality and there is no other problem.
08 FLHX 124", wfolarry 110 heads, CR630i cams, Burns pipe, 158/152 sae

Offline hotrodshovel

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Re: Gaskets for lifter swap
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2018, 06:15:59 AM »
Those lifter block gaskets are the only ones on the bike I would consider reusing if they come off in one piece. It always best to use new ones, sure,  but If you eye says try, go for it.  Chances are they will hold.

I'm just being redundant here but whats one more opinion worth, I'm sure your lifters are just the victims, not the cause.  Gotta find the cause.  I always look inside the breather gear. Debris also collects there and if I see some there then I know what I have to do.  PITA, yes but split cases and clean/flush everything.  That's the only way to get peace of mind, IMHO.

Best of luck and keep us informed.
John

Offline No Cents

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Re: Gaskets for lifter swap
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2018, 07:29:01 AM »
 the OP pm'd me this morning and he said he pulled the old lifters apart.
I told him in a pm yesterday how to pull them completely apart...even how to get the nose piece off the lifter valve body so he could check inside and make sure there was no debris around the check ball and spring. He had great news this morning and he said he found nothing inside any of the old lifters...except oil. I told him on his next oil change I would cut his oil filter open and take a peek at the media...just for peace of mind.
  His plan is to go ahead and proceed with a new set of Larry's lifters.
08 FLHX 124", wfolarry 110 heads, CR630i cams, Burns pipe, 158/152 sae

Offline Rockout Rocker Products

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Re: Gaskets for lifter swap
« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2018, 09:00:40 AM »
Larry's lifters  :up:
www.rockout.biz Stop the top end TAPPING!!

Offline Boe Cole

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Re: Gaskets for lifter swap
« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2018, 09:18:38 AM »
I'm a frugal person as well and hate spending $'s on stuff that is not needed.  My suggestion would be to go ahead and buy the gaskets and o rings and return what is not needed.  I always say that I'm going to return them but most of the time end up keeping the items for the next time - which seldom comes,,, :embarrassed:
We never really grow up, we only learn how to act in public.

Offline Ridgerunner

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Re: Gaskets for lifter swap
« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2018, 03:19:44 PM »
Finished up last evening with installing the new lifters. I had changed oil prior to starting this lifter change and still had old oil filter draining over on the drain pan. So I cut it open (what a mess that made) to see what it looked like inside. Using a magnet I couldnt see anything to cause concern at all. Some stuff on the media but no metal that I could find.
Took the bike out today to check it out and rode about 30 miles out and 30 back. The Larry's lifters are very quiet and the bike sounds so much better. I don't know if its just the lifters or the rocker locker bushings or a combination of both but it made me one happy Roadking owner.
One thing I noticed also was how quick it starts now. The bike always had that umph umph before it fired as though the battery was bad. But now starts right away.
Thanks all for your help and advice and Ray for your help on the lifter disassembly. Also thanks to whoever said to clean out the bolt holes. That probably saved me from a bad day. :dgust:

Offline No Cents

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Re: Gaskets for lifter swap
« Reply #35 on: January 06, 2018, 04:11:07 PM »
   :up:
that's great to hear!     :chop:
08 FLHX 124", wfolarry 110 heads, CR630i cams, Burns pipe, 158/152 sae

Offline Pete_Vit

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Re: Gaskets for lifter swap
« Reply #36 on: January 08, 2018, 06:07:17 AM »
 :up:

Offline hotrodshovel

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Re: Gaskets for lifter swap
« Reply #37 on: January 08, 2018, 06:45:06 AM »
Another success story.  :up: Reading these posts really make my day.  I read HTT over morning coffee and I am always inspired.  Great group here.
John