Author Topic: Back in the EVO game!  (Read 1989 times)

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Offline rageglide

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #75 on: November 16, 2017, 10:45:25 AM »
OEM studs are MORE than adequate.  ARP is a waste of beer money.   JW just get new OEM studs, and timesert the pulled ones.  Leave the other sleeping dogs lie.   Worst case scenario you have one or two that goes soft during install...   

Those studs sure looked nasty seems most likely the engine was running hot or maybe over heated at some point.  Those studs and head bolts were the nastiest I've seen.

So far no Crane 300 in my stash, but I do have a good looking 310.  I still have another place to look...

Offline JW113

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #76 on: November 17, 2017, 10:18:28 PM »
Yo dude, a 310 would be awesome. Yes, will pick up some -99 studs to replace the ones that pulled out. Still waiting on Roger to get the heads done. Hopefully before T-day!

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline JW113

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #77 on: November 22, 2017, 07:48:32 PM »
Bob-O dropped off a couple of Crane cams, a 300 and a 310. Both are great cams for a stock-ish Evo motor. So now the decision: 30 thou or 50 thou on the heads?  Really, a big difference? I want to get the CCR to around 9.5:1. Maybe 180psi ccp? Not looking for a high end power motor, lots of mid range torque. What ya think?

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Online thumper 823

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #78 on: November 23, 2017, 07:15:48 AM »
MAKE sure your heads have not been cut.  (should be stamped)
50 thou off on a stock casting is nothing.
Well, almost nothing.
Truly it depends on a lot of other configurations.
However, if you are just shaving heads and no other mods except a mild Cam it will be no problem.
Its a start!
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline jeffscycle

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #79 on: November 24, 2017, 02:10:03 PM »
   With the long legs, the 300 will be the stump puller you want. I'd bite the bullet & go for time serts now, the era of your cases isn't in your favor.
'01 FXDXT, '99 FXDL/XRD, '76 FLH

Offline JW113

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #80 on: November 27, 2017, 10:05:02 PM »
So the shop is going to mill the heads .050, and I've decided on a Crane FB310 that Bob gave me. Should be quite fine, tall gearing and all. Heck, they came stock with that gearing for a while.

You are probably right, should timesert the case now, but oh hell, I'm lazy. I red loctited the loose studs back in, and then stacked up some sockets & spacers and torque tested two of them to 45 ft/lbs. They held OK. Famous last words, yes I know, said it before and lived to regret it. On the bright side, I'll get to tear it all apart in a few hundred miles and timesert the studs! And if/when it comes to that, will do all eight of the bastards.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline JW113

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #81 on: November 30, 2017, 07:06:21 PM »
Picked up the heads/cyls on Tuesday. I had picked up a can of the Harley-Davidson textured engine paint to freshen them up. Only issue is that it's been kinda cold here, no higher than low/mid 60s during the day. Instructions on can say apply and cure at room temp, which I am assuming to be 72F. Well that ain't gonna happen, but it also said you can force dry it at 180F. So this afternoon, it was 67F, so I went ahead and shot the paint on, and fired up the barby to 180F. They're out there right now a-baking away. What they did not say on can was how long you have to bake.

An hour? A day? Anybody? Anybody?

I figure how can you over-bake, they're gonna get a hell of a lot hotter than that during operation. Will give it a few hours and call it good.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline rageglide

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #82 on: November 30, 2017, 07:40:53 PM »
As long as they don't catch on fire from the out gassing in that open flame env... 2 hours @180 should be adequate.

Glad to hear you got the parts back.   :up:

Offline JW113

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #83 on: November 30, 2017, 08:17:49 PM »
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Ding ding ding ding! The BBQ hogheads are done!

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline rageglide

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #84 on: November 30, 2017, 08:36:47 PM »
If it was warmer I'd say paint the bottom end too.   But that mass would need a lot of time to get up into the 60's ...  Maybe pull it and take the cases and primary into the house , set em on the kitchen counter near the oven.  Should be ready to paint by Saturday.    :hyst:  -V would love it.


Offline JW113

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #85 on: December 04, 2017, 09:02:49 AM »
Well it's all back together and I got to hear it run for a few seconds. Was smokin like a rastafarian from the assembly oil, and it was in the garage so I didn't let it run very long, just wanted to hear it fire up.

I spent a few hours chasing down an electrical gremlin in the starter circuit. I had it all ready to do, poured in a gallon of gas, and hit the starter button. All it did was a loud "CLACK", then nothing. I probed on the green wire on the starter, no signal. Hmm. OK, so working from the "what did you touch last" school of thought, I began to question if I screwed up when I wired in a set of 2000's controls to the stock '92 handlebar wires.

There is a black/red wire that comes from the starter button to the starter relay, through one connector between the tanks. So I figured I'd make sure the signal was getting from button to relay. I looked behind the oil tank at the fender flap where the relay should be mounted, and what the heck. There's the relay, with no connector on it! I didn't see the connector hanging back in there though. I followed the harness, and lo and behold, it lead up to a little plastic box next to the ignition module. I took the cover off, and there is a relay. It seems that sometime in the past, HD must done a starter relocation kit, with a wiring extension. It was plugged into the stock harness, and routed up under the seat.

I unplugged the relay and probed on the black/red wire from the button, nothing. Well crap, gonna have to pull the tanks I see, so I did. I checked the harness from handlebar controls, A-OK. I followed the signal from the frame connector to the starter relay, zero. Hmm. I unplugged the relay extension, signal was OK from frame connector to there. WTF? I checked the extension harness, and something is funny here. After looking back and forth at the wiring diagram, the harness, and finally the relay itself, I figured out that this new relay is not wired like what was supposed to be the stock relay. The start button signal (black/red) and the relay ground (black) are reversed on this relay! WTF?? OK, what ever, so now check the signal from the starter button, A-OK. I plug the extension back into the harness and put the relay back, turn the ignition on and hit the button. Rrr-Rrr-Rrr-Rrr.... Starter is cranking fine now! WTF????

By now it is late afternoon and I need to get the christmas light up, so spent a couple hours with that. Then got back to the bike, put the tanks on, hit the starter and it roars to life, filling the garage up with smoke. By now it was dark, so I'm done for the day.

So. All I can figure is that either I didn't get the controls harness connector pushed on correctly at the frame, OR that relay extension harness connector was not making good contact. One common theme on this bike is the amount of corrosion on the thing. It was a coastal bike, and from the looks of it, somebody in the past must have been storing it outside or under a car port, exposed to that wicked salt fog they get along the coast. The terminals in the main harness where the relay extension plugged in looks pretty nasty. So maybe unplugging, replugging clear the contacts?

I can tell you this, I HATE electrical gremlins! This era HD used those open AMP connectors, prone to weathering. And I found that with especially softails and sporties, with rigid mount motor, the connector pins seem to "loosen up" with age and don't bite very well due to the vibration. I'm thinking I'm gonna have a new wiring harness in my future....

Anyway, I got to hear it run. Will try to play hooky for a few hours this week and break in the new rings.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline Deye76

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #86 on: December 04, 2017, 04:29:00 PM »
Textured paint came out great JW. Glad you got it assembled. I hate wiring/electrics also.
East Tenn.
2014 CVO RK, 2015 RGS, 1992 FXRP

Offline JW113

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #87 on: December 05, 2017, 08:27:52 AM »
Yeah the paint looks nice, can't tell the diff between what I did on the heads & jugs compared to the rest of the parts. I'll snap a pic. Have to say that HD paint is good stuff, although 5x as much as the off the shelf stuff. Hard as a rock.

Well my little ring break in session went kind of odd. I rolled it out the street and fired it up, and holy smokes (pun intended) it's been quite a while since I seen so much smoke pour out of a motor like this. I thought it would dry up fairly quickly, but was not happening. Even a couple neighbors came out to see what the hell was going on!

I started to have some doubts, but in for a penny, in for a pound. I dropped it into 1st and headed down the street. At least there won't be too many mosquitoes in this neighborhood for a while. After a few blocks and some moderate throttle pulls through 1st to 3rd, it started to dry up a bit. By the time I got back home (maybe 2 miles), it had pretty much cleared up. I had been hearing a somewhat odd noise when letting up the throttle and coasting down, kinda like a transmission whine (sort of), so I didn't stay out long and headed back to the garage to check things out. I think it was maybe the new belt? I looked at the outlets of the exhaust pipes, both dripping wet with oil. Sheesh.

So this smoking business. I had given the cylinders a light coat of oil, and also the rings. That's about it. I put in a used Crane FB310 that Bob gave me, and a new set of tappets, and dumped about 1/4 (maybe 1/2?) quart of oil in the cam chest for some splash at start up. Maybe too much oil in the crankcase, with un-seated rings?

After I give it a once over check, will take it out again over to the freeway and give it sequence of full throttle pulls to really seat the rings, then see how the oil situation is doing.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline jeffscycle

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #88 on: December 05, 2017, 11:10:34 AM »
   With your extra oil, and what was in the crank already, may have just over loaded the rings. if it was an older case style PCV, it'd puke out, but newer style keeps it all in. It might be over full on the tank now, and or check to see if rocker breathers are doing their job.
'01 FXDXT, '99 FXDL/XRD, '76 FLH

Offline JW113

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #89 on: December 05, 2017, 01:46:30 PM »
It's a '92, so last year crankcase breather. Oddly, the heads and rocker boxes are cast for the head breather stuff, just not implemented. Looks like they were getting ready for the '93 change.

And also oddly, no oil puke out the breather hose.

 :scratch:

I had only put 2 qts of oil in the tank for just such case as this, knowing there was some oil in the motor. Also, I usually drain the oil and change filter 50-ish miles after an overhaul just to clear the early wear material out of it.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline jeffscycle

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #90 on: December 06, 2017, 11:47:30 AM »
   Did you hone & use new rings?
'01 FXDXT, '99 FXDL/XRD, '76 FLH

Offline JC 92FXRS

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #91 on: December 06, 2017, 12:55:10 PM »
It's a '92, so last year crankcase breather. Oddly, the heads and rocker boxes are cast for the head breather stuff, just not implemented. Looks like they were getting ready for the '93 change.

And also oddly, no oil puke out the breather hose.

 :scratch:

I had only put 2 qts of oil in the tank for just such case as this, knowing there was some oil in the motor. Also, I usually drain the oil and change filter 50-ish miles after an overhaul just to clear the early wear material out of it.

-JW

Yup, same as mine...case breather with '93 heads (head-breathers not plumbed in). Mine only throws oil (~250ml) if it's sat all winter. It will also throw a little if it's trailed or in the back of a truck for a significant distance (I assume it's the bouncing with the engine not running that drives oil past the check-ball).
Jeff
"never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence"

Offline tdrglide

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #92 on: December 06, 2017, 01:54:24 PM »
My 92 fxr is also set up that way (case breather with head breather heads and rocker boxes not setup) my understanding is all 92 evo's were made that way. The last guy into the rocker boxes before I got it went so far as to install the umbrella valves.  :nix:

Offline JW113

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #93 on: December 06, 2017, 06:12:00 PM »
Yes, honed the cylinders and new Hastings rings. The pistons looked great, very tight fit in the boars. (only 36K on motor)

One thing odd about this set of rings. Usually they have some nice instructions how to install the rings, like pictures of the 'dot' for the top side, or which way to put the bevels. This set, nothing. Zero, zip. The top ring was moly, and not marked. The second ring had a bevel, so I had to make a educated guess and put it on the top. Hope that was correct. Maybe need to call Hastings and ask? Nothing on their website, I used some instructions from a set of S&S rings to decide on the bevel direction.

Also, no info at all on ring gap. The FM also had nothing about ring gap other than 'not to exceed .030', no minimum. I measured these all around .015", which seemed fine.

One more little problem to address though. The pushrod tubes are leaking oil pretty bad, I think I know why. When I put the keepers in, it was all I could do go get them to snap into place. They are tighter than hell. I was thinking at the time probably not a good idea, but really wanted to just button it up to fire it up. These heads were milled .050", so I guess it stands to reason the pushrod keepers need to get cut down that much too. Oops...

Anybody else had this kind of oil spew problem? I've not popped it loose yet to see if it cut or ruined the O-rings, but guessing it did.

 :doh:

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #94 on: December 06, 2017, 07:23:49 PM »
Personally, i would throw Aunt Tillies street rings in the trash and get
a 12 lb pack.
Why waste power dragging 30 lbs?
I go through a 1/2 QT oil  in 2000 miles at 10 pounds.
That is a pretty good trade!
The power is not going out the pipe in heat and restriction.

http://www.totalseal.com/pdf/GAPCHART.pdf

https://www.hastingspistonrings.com/tech-tips-faqs/checking-compression-ring-gaps
https://www.hastingspistonrings.com/tech-tips-faqs/checking-compression-ring-gaps

D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline jeffscycle

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #95 on: December 07, 2017, 10:08:36 AM »
    I just looked at a set of Hastings std. V2 rings I stock when I do base gaskets on them regularly. The bevel on the second ring  goes DOWN, Mine do have a dot for top side also. Yes. the new packaging is rather generic with just pics, I'm assuming for international sales.
   
   Total seals are good, but should be used with a fresh hole (& seasoned cyl.), and the power difference is neglectable. I've been using Hastings for years for a fix for oil burners with stock cylinders. Stok Evo's cylinder are flexy flyers, and are rarely round. From what I've observed, sometimes the stock rings just don't seal, and kind of clean up the high spots. So once a new set is introduced on a honed cylinder, they seal up better than originals.
'01 FXDXT, '99 FXDL/XRD, '76 FLH

Offline rageglide

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #96 on: December 07, 2017, 10:30:13 AM »
John I've run milled heads on all my bikes and never an issue with the pushrod tubes leaking.  Sounds like a pinched top o ring. 

My first thought on the oil issue was that it sounds like you have rings in upside down.  (like jeffscycle is saying). 

I tried totalseal once... never again. 

Offline JW113

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #97 on: December 07, 2017, 05:51:07 PM »
This is all I had to go on, taken from an S&S piston ring installation guide:
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So I had case 7, figure one. No dot, inside bevel. I put it to the top of the piston. Guess I need to give Hastings a call and ask WTF.

So Bob, you're probably right, something up with the O-rings. But on all four?? And I'm telling ya, it came down to 99.9% not compressing enough to get the keepers in there. So those tubes are *real* tight. One last caveat, these are not stock HD pushrod tubes. The ones that came with the bike were rusty as hell. These are from Biker Direct (i.e. Taiwan Direct).

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline rageglide

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #98 on: December 07, 2017, 07:08:50 PM »
Close enough is Good enough...  or not.  Never had any issue at all with pushrod tub fit after milling heads. If they are too tight it sounds like a bad fit.  Maybe the inners are large enough they are making contact with the bore in the head which would be solid and not compress the o-rings.  Try the OEM inners.