Author Topic: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?  (Read 1827 times)

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Offline HV

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M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« on: October 20, 2017, 08:39:30 AM »
May have been talked about in the past but I havent seen it....




Any one having Issues with M8s Pinging noises around 3000 Roll on ?  Got one Trike and a Street Glide doing it....both 18s ....HD is scratching their Heads.....talked to 3 Different Guys at the Mothership so far ......done a $hit load of tests ...they are down to adding Octane Boost ......FFS they are brand new Bikes ! ...Ya a Customer is going to want to carry a can of Boost with him all over the Country  :banghead:
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Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2017, 10:44:46 AM »
Local guy here complains about the same on his 17 trike. He also says it is dead out of the hole. 100% stock

Offline HV

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Re: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2017, 01:30:38 PM »
Its pulling almost 5 Degrees out of the rear at times .....somethings not good..... :doh:
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Offline RXBOB

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Re: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2017, 03:57:34 PM »
My 17 RG was pinging I put on a PV did some data logging pulled some timing in identified areas smoothed out the timing and its sweet

I would imagine that any half descent Dyno operator should be able to sort it out

Offline HV

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Re: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2017, 04:37:51 PM »
My 17 RG was pinging I put on a PV did some data logging pulled some timing in identified areas smoothed out the timing and its sweet

I would imagine that any half descent Dyno operator should be able to sort it out


Not on a Brand New Bike ..... using only the HD Digital Tech Software  :wink:
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Offline Sunny Jim

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Re: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2017, 05:01:15 PM »
They will pull timing as the engine gets hot.

Offline Geezer_Glider

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Re: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2017, 06:25:42 PM »
Interesting. I've put 13K miles on my 17 Ultra, all running 87 octane swamp swill. Only get a momentary rattle if I crowd it real low rpm (<1600) in a too high of gear by accident. Nothing at 3K rpm, even snapped open at 3K in 6th. Will be interesting to hear what is found. Engine has been running good, 45mpg on average, stone stock except breathers to a catch can.
Just saying,
R Meyer

Offline thunderrat

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Re: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2017, 07:56:19 PM »
I demo'd a 2018 Heritage at Tomahawk in September. They always have a nice self-guided route where you can twist the throttle if you want.  That bike ran like  :turd:  detonated like crazy when I got on it.  The two other 18's I rode did not do that and ran ok.

Offline Bike31

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Re: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2017, 08:38:30 PM »
I demo'd a 2018 Heritage at Tomahawk in September. They always have a nice self-guided route where you can twist the throttle if you want.  That bike ran like  :turd:  detonated like crazy when I got on it.  The two other 18's I rode did not do that and ran ok.

What engines were they...107 or 114?
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Offline RXBOB

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Re: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2017, 12:46:18 PM »
My 17 RG was pinging I put on a PV did some data logging pulled some timing in identified areas smoothed out the timing and its sweet

I would imagine that any half descent Dyno operator should be able to sort it out


Not on a Brand New Bike ..... using only the HD Digital Tech Software  :wink:

Didn't have that problem here down under at my dyno Operator

Offline HV

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Re: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2017, 12:53:16 PM »
My 17 RG was pinging I put on a PV did some data logging pulled some timing in identified areas smoothed out the timing and its sweet

I would imagine that any half descent Dyno operator should be able to sort it out


Not on a Brand New Bike ..... using only the HD Digital Tech Software  :wink:

Didn't have that problem here down under at my dyno Operator


What I ment was we have no way of tuning a Bike using the Harley Computer ......you would need a Tuner of some kind ....PV SERT Etc ...these are new bikes with no tuners ...
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Offline BVHOG

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Re: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2017, 01:20:19 PM »
Interesting, I will be tuning an 18 trike this weekend and will be watching for detonation etc, awfully cool here to not sure if it's a legit test or not.
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Offline HV

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Re: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2017, 01:23:20 PM »
Was a bit cool here too ....so should be close....be interesting to see for sure
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Offline BVHOG

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Re: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2017, 01:54:59 PM »
Was a bit cool here too ....so should be close....be interesting to see for sure
I pulled the factory cal with PV, will take a close look at the stock timing tables.
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Offline HV

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Re: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2017, 02:42:50 PM »
Check around 3000 ....if you roll on...then off ...then Hit it at just below 3000 it will start
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Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2017, 03:25:03 PM »
There is a learning curve with dual plugs.

Offline thunderrat

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Re: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2017, 05:39:00 PM »
"What engines were they...107 or 114? "

They were all 107's

Offline PIRSCH FIRE WAGON

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Re: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2017, 05:10:58 PM »
Both the 107 and 114's have Knock Sensors. Perhaps something is defective?
Tom

Offline HV

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Re: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2017, 05:36:16 PM »
Update........after doing a lot of runs and saving them to the DT...we went through every reading we could find......Called the Factory a lot of times...sent them recordings...their answer /   Rider is not riding it properly..lol WTF .....I finally found the rear knock sensor had 0 Volts running......called the factory back told them to look at that part of the recordings....." OH thats not correct "   FFS   no $hit.....now the cold has set in...new Knock sensor back ordered....so it will be spring now before we see it that was the issue  :banghead:
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Offline Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers

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Re: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2017, 06:00:33 PM »
Update........after doing a lot of runs and saving them to the DT...we went through every reading we could find......Called the Factory a lot of times...sent them recordings...their answer /  Rider is not riding it properly..lol WTF .....I finally found the rear knock sensor had 0 Volts running......called the factory back told them to look at that part of the recordings....." OH thats not correct "   FFS   no $hit.....now the cold has set in...new Knock sensor back ordered....so it will be spring now before we see it that was the issue  :banghead:
Why is it always my fault :hyst:
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Offline Bike31

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Re: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2017, 06:51:35 PM »
Update........after doing a lot of runs and saving them to the DT...we went through every reading we could find......Called the Factory a lot of times...sent them recordings...their answer /   Rider is not riding it properly..lol WTF .....I finally found the rear knock sensor had 0 Volts running......called the factory back told them to look at that part of the recordings....." OH thats not correct "   FFS   no $hit.....now the cold has set in...new Knock sensor back ordered....so it will be spring now before we see it that was the issue  :banghead:

Was the factory voice Paki or Indian?
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Offline HV

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Re: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2017, 07:48:11 PM »
Good old USA ..... :smiled:
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Offline SLAATY

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Re: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2017, 05:16:02 AM »
HV, been following your thread w/interest. With KS’s there shouldn’t be any more than temporary knock, obviously. It’s strange that these are back ordered?? With GM, if it was a new vehicle down they’d pull parts off the line.

Might be interesting to see if KS’s now have an ‘A’ designation...

Offline HV

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Re: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2017, 07:54:40 PM »
Because this is now our Fall/Winter time...the Bikes are away till spring...so the MOCO likely sees to rush to send us parts......FYI we also have a Demo Bike that a customer reported pinging too.....its also stored so I cant even check the Voltages on it till Spring....all on Hold for now  :emoGroan:
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Offline Moparnut72

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Re: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2017, 06:39:01 AM »
If KD4's are on back order how in the hell are they building new bikes. Leaving them off?
Zkk
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Offline PoorUB

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Re: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2017, 06:45:49 AM »
If KD4's are on back order how in the hell are they building new bikes. Leaving them off?
Zkk

Factories can be funny. They will allot so many pieces for production, and so many for parts supply and the two do not cross. They will not pull parts from production to replenish parts supply.

Years ago I went on a tour through a Generac generator plant. The next day I was back at work and looking over back ordered parts. I had a part from Generac that was back ordered so I called to find out how long it would be. Three months I was told. The day before they were assembling the very same model on the factory floor. I asked the gent in customer service to do me a favor and walk down on the factory floor and pull the part out of production and ship it to me. He hesitated for a second and told me the part would ship that day!
« Last Edit: November 25, 2017, 06:51:04 AM by PoorUB »
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Offline Moparnut72

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Re: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2017, 08:07:56 AM »
I kind of knew that but was asking a rehtorical question. But it seems to me a couple of happy customers in the field are worth more than one in the bush. But as we all know a lot of companies don't think that way. Once they sell something to somebody get them out the door pronto and forget 'em. Not the way for keeping customers and selling them another new bike down the road.  I once bought a new model from a Chrysler Dealer. It was a new hot model and all the dealers I checked looking for a certain color had marked them up over list. One dealer had one in even a nicer color and knocked off $500. I told them others were marking it up a couple of thou. Salesman told me he wanted to sell me more through the years, not just this car. Great dealer, Denham Chrysler in Redding Calif.
kk
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Offline Nastytls

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Re: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2017, 08:20:18 AM »
That's a smart business. Too many dealers out there, particularly in the HD world, want to gouge you for every last penny. To me, thinking long vs. short is a much smarter play and will earn them more over time. The dealer I go to offered me a discount on parts without me even asking. They also don't charge the BS cash grab "setup and documentation" fees when you buy a bike ( new or used ). They are a smaller family owned shop, not one of the greedy corporate conglomerate owned shops. I won't buy parts from any other dealer now and if I ever buy a bagger it will be from them.

Offline rbabos

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Re: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2017, 11:00:51 AM »
That's a smart business. Too many dealers out there, particularly in the HD world, want to gouge you for every last penny. To me, thinking long vs. short is a much smarter play and will earn them more over time. The dealer I go to offered me a discount on parts without me even asking. They also don't charge the BS cash grab "setup and documentation" fees when you buy a bike ( new or used ). They are a smaller family owned shop, not one of the greedy corporate conglomerate owned shops. I won't buy parts from any other dealer now and if I ever buy a bagger it will be from them.
Good for him.  :up: How does he skirt the MoCo demands? They just about tell you how to breathe when you become a dealer.
Ron

Offline Nastytls

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Re: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2017, 01:50:09 PM »
Not sure what you mean?

Offline Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers

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Re: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2017, 12:57:13 PM »
Update on the Pinging M8 we have.......we installed a new Knock Sensor ...Voltage went from 0 to 2.5 ...same as the Front one...had a chance to ride it but it was a cool day......no pinging....so fingers crossed for the spring
Translated
Update on the Pinging M8 we have.......we installed a new Knock Sensor ...Voltage went from 0 to 2.5 ...same as the Front one...had a chance to ride it but it was a cool day......no pinging....so fingers crossed for the spring
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Offline HV

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Re: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2017, 01:12:52 PM »
Not sure what happened with that post  :banghead:
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Offline GoFastRKS114

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Re: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2018, 09:22:48 PM »
HV  I'm looking forward to an update. I am having the same issue with my 17 RKS. 107 with a Stage IV and dyno’d. V&H X-pipes. It sounds like gravel in the front pipe under load, with moderate throttle roll-on from 2500-3K in 5th or 6th. I took it out today for a 50* ride and it only did it once. I run Premium fuel only. Ran 1 tank of Octane Boost and it improved some. Bike did it during break-in before being dynoed. I rode very conservatively to avoid it. After 1k service and dyno, same issue. Took it back in, and different tech said the dyno map was too advanced in that RPM range. He backed it off some, but said that any more would cost me power. It showed 118 ft of torque on the initial dynojet test. Still does it consistently when the motor is warm, even in cool temps. Very interested to see if anyone finds the problem, and i’m wondering if I should be expecting more power from a Stage IV 114?

Offline PoorUB

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Re: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2018, 10:09:12 PM »
I question your Dyno operator's tuning ability. Plus, which tuner? A HD tuner will allow a change in tune just to certain limits. If your engine needs to be adjusted out of those limits, you're screwed. If the engine pings, you are loosing performance, so I don't agree with his comment.
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Offline Gordon61

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Re: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2018, 03:55:41 AM »
I logged my new 2018 Fatboy and it was pulling 3 or 4 degrees all over the place  :scratch:

It only had 200 miles on the clock before it went away for the winter - I asked about it somewhere else and was told that to run it for 500 miles because they were set up like that from the factory and needed a good few hundred miles to "learn"

There is a learning curve with dual plugs.

I've not heard this one before??
I know there are spark removal tables but they should be pretty much 0 under normal running should they not? ...well, if the spark tables are tuned correct anyway. Is there some other learning somewhere?

Offline No Cents

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Re: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2018, 04:11:26 AM »
  did you do a leak down test on it?
08 FLHX 124", wfolarry 110 heads, CR630i cams, Burns pipe, 158/152 sae

Offline Sunny Jim

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Re: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2018, 04:58:49 AM »
Mine consistently pulls timing / Knock señor count/ PV gauges. I have collected data regularly on the PV gauges ad downloaded it on MLV. I have removed timing and I still get a reading.
I am going to turn off the Knock Sensors.
107/ CR460/ street canons/ AC/ PV target tune.

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2018, 05:05:44 AM »
I logged my new 2018 Fatboy and it was pulling 3 or 4 degrees all over the place  :scratch:

It only had 200 miles on the clock before it went away for the winter - I asked about it somewhere else and was told that to run it for 500 miles because they were set up like that from the factory and needed a good few hundred miles to "learn"

There is a learning curve with dual plugs.

I've not heard this one before??
I know there are spark removal tables but they should be pretty much 0 under normal running should they not? ...well, if the spark tables are tuned correct anyway. Is there some other learning somewhere?

I was referring to the the learning curve of the people making the timing maps. Dual plugs and pent roof chambers require less timing and if the timing maps are written with the same curve that worked on performance TC's then the ECM will be pulling timing. The problem will be worse when free flowing exhaust, air cleaners and good cams are installed and do not get custom spark maps designed. One other thing that comes into play is the air flow curve of the new heads which is totally different from the HD norm so VE and cylinder pressures do not follow the traditional rpm curve.   

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2018, 05:09:37 AM »
Mine consistently pulls timing / Knock señor count/ PV gauges. I have collected data regularly on the PV gauges ad downloaded it on MLV. I have removed timing and I still get a reading.
I am going to turn off the Knock Sensors.
107/ CR460/ street canons/ AC/ PV target tune.

It can be you are not get spark knock, with no ion sensing the mechanical knock sensors pick up all types on noise and the ECM has to be program at the factory level to ignore this extra noise.

Offline Gordon61

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Re: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2018, 02:49:16 AM »
  did you do a leak down test on it?

If that was at me, no, she was wintered before the valve seat thing came to light ...but it will be first on the to do list come spring.  Mine also produces white smoke until it is warmed up  :crook:

I was referring to the the learning curve of the people making the timing maps.

OK I got ya.  So do you think the factory are still learning and the stock maps are a bit off then?

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« Reply #40 on: January 18, 2018, 05:33:11 AM »

I was referring to the the learning curve of the people making the timing maps.

OK I got ya.  So do you think the factory are still learning and the stock maps are a bit off then?

HD has been releasing bikes and then refining maps as they go starting with the first EFI bikes. With the big changes from TC to M-8 there is no reason to expect the maps to be more than a rough start at this point. Now add any of the aftermarket parts and it is is a total R&D situation.


Offline No Cents

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Re: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« Reply #41 on: January 18, 2018, 06:52:28 AM »
  I was actually asking HV...but it would be something that I would be checking if I owned an M8.
If one is leaking around the valve seat I would think it could cause all sorts of issues. Maybe even cause pinging.  :nix:
08 FLHX 124", wfolarry 110 heads, CR630i cams, Burns pipe, 158/152 sae

Offline HV

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Re: M8 Pinging / Detonation Sounds ?
« Reply #42 on: January 18, 2018, 08:05:39 AM »
That was one of he first things the MOCO asked us to check....it was well with in Spec.....  Knock sensor looks like its fixed it
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