Author Topic: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up  (Read 2163 times)

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Offline Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers

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Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2017, 06:29:22 AM »
I would also be curious as to what the oil looks like after 3-5 K. Carbon can do a lot of damage especially when it starts blowing by the rings.
Black oil = carbon in the oil.
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Online les

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Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2017, 08:05:00 AM »
(First, when I refer to carbon knock I'm talking about carbon on top of the piston hitting the head when the engine is cold, or when the cylinders have cooled down faster than the expansion of the rod.)

Wood, it's a little hard to tell from the photos, but the carbon does look like it's built up and potentially enough to hit the head when the engine is cold.  (Looks similar to what I've seen with my eyes.)

I recommend doing the procedure I recommended in posting #7.  It does not cost anything and you don't have to take anything apart.  Also, it's been a sure fire method for me to determine carbon knock or not (as I've defined above).

Finally, when I've done compression tests, they have always shown proper compression even if the engine is having carbon knock.

Offline Wood

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Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2017, 07:53:43 AM »
Finally, when I've done compression tests, they have always shown proper compression even if the engine is having carbon knock.

Well I finally got around to doing a compression test: 115 psi Front and Rear @ cold; 120 psi Front and rear @ ~250 F engine temp  :crook:.

MPG runs from 40-45 depending on how hard a twist the throttle.

Going to do the top end and take a look in the cam chest. Someone have a nice low-end torque cam for this 96?

Offline N-gin

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Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2017, 09:19:14 AM »
Doesn't anyone see that the pistons are melted?
There is no carbon anywhere. It's running way lean.
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Online Hossamania

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Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #29 on: November 04, 2017, 09:34:50 AM »
Doesn't anyone see that the pistons are melted?
There is no carbon anywhere. It's running way lean.

I didn't think there was much carbon there either, but I don't take motors apart very often. My pistons were black when disassembled with 25,000 miles on them to go big bore. I thought the pictures of these pistons showed them to be quite clean.
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Offline FXDBI

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Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #30 on: November 04, 2017, 09:39:30 AM »
Doesn't anyone see that the pistons are melted?
There is no carbon anywhere. It's running way lean.

Got to agree looks like its junk in there. One picture even seems to show a piece of ring where the top land is melted.   Bob

Offline tdrglide

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Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2017, 11:30:01 AM »
Time to pull the heads. Take a real look. Whatever the problem, Something is wrong.

Offline Moparnut72

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Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2017, 08:15:22 PM »
 I agree, those pistons are a mess. Extreme heat, most likely fuel mixture. That whole top end needs to be redone and the cause determined for sure.
kk
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Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2017, 08:59:29 PM »
My computer maybe showing different pistons because the ones I see posted have a thick layer of very hard burned carbon covering them and filling the valve reliefs. Looks much like the charbon you would find on the chamber side of a very high milage exhaust valve. The small chip in the carbon is exposing the only spot you can see the actual aluminium piston top.

Offline Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers

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Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #34 on: November 05, 2017, 02:21:53 AM »
My computer maybe showing different pistons because the ones I see posted have a thick layer of very hard burned carbon covering them and filling the valve reliefs. Looks much like the charbon you would find on the chamber side of a very high milage exhaust valve. The small chip in the carbon is exposing the only spot you can see the actual aluminium piston top.
Yes that is what I see. The plug would tell the story, what does it look like, carbon or melted aluminum on it.
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Offline hbkeith

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Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #35 on: November 05, 2017, 03:49:31 AM »
I like my scopes too. Look right at the valve w/o taking anything off but the A/C.
De-carbon would help, but he said that bike is using oil. That needs to be fixed if
you want to get to the root cause.

I just received by borescope ($22 Depstech, USB, Semi-rigid Endoscope Inspection Camera). Here are some pictures of the Front Cylinder. Please let me know what you think.
   are you saying you paid $22 for that camera ? nice and clear , got a link to that ?

Offline N-gin

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Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #36 on: November 05, 2017, 04:39:54 AM »
I like my scopes too. Look right at the valve w/o taking anything off but the A/C.
De-carbon would help, but he said that bike is using oil. That needs to be fixed if
you want to get to the root cause.

I just received by borescope ($22 Depstech, USB, Semi-rigid Endoscope Inspection Camera). Here are some pictures of the Front Cylinder. Please let me know what you think.
   are you saying you paid $22 for that camera ? nice and clear , got a link to that ?

I paid 19$ for mine and it looks up to my phone/tablet/computer, what ever has mini USB and USB. It also takes video and sound...
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Offline N-gin

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Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #37 on: November 05, 2017, 04:42:34 AM »
The very first picture tells me the story. If you look at the bore you will see the piston has chunks missing. The chunks reflect on the wall.

One other way to tell is look at the spark plugs.
Take a pic of those..
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Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #38 on: November 05, 2017, 05:12:11 AM »
The very first picture tells me the story. If you look at the bore you will see the piston has chunks missing. The chunks reflect on the wall.

One other way to tell is look at the spark plugs.
Take a pic of those..


Wood could verify for us but the second pic is a better representation.
Blown up here with the red arrow showing the actual aluminium piston surface where the carbon has flaked off, the rest of the piston has a very thick hard layer of carbon covering it.


The cylinders are oil glazed and the OP said the heads were removed, decarboned and resealed. now here it is sucking even more oil past the rings. It needed a total topend to begin with.

Added
If you look close the missing carbon chip goes from the edge of the piston right up to the edge of the valve relief. I would bet it was thick enough to be struck by the valve during overlap and that is what chipped the carbon off.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2017, 05:26:39 AM by 1FSTRK »

Offline Wood

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Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #39 on: November 05, 2017, 06:28:52 AM »
   are you saying you paid $22 for that camera ? nice and clear , got a link to that ?
[/quote]

Go to Amazon and enter:
USB Borescope, Depstech Semi-rigid Endoscope Inspection Camera 2.0 Megapixels CMOS HD Waterproof Snake Camera with 6 Adjustable Led Light - 16.5FT

Be careful as some only work with certain computers or phones. The one above works with my Mac computer using the "Photo Booth" application.

Offline Wood

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Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #40 on: November 05, 2017, 06:29:55 AM »
My computer maybe showing different pistons because the ones I see posted have a thick layer of very hard burned carbon covering them and filling the valve reliefs. Looks much like the charbon you would find on the chamber side of a very high milage exhaust valve. The small chip in the carbon is exposing the only spot you can see the actual aluminium piston top.

 :agree:

Offline N-gin

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Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #41 on: November 05, 2017, 04:02:18 PM »
The very first picture tells me the story. If you look at the bore you will see the piston has chunks missing. The chunks reflect on the wall.

One other way to tell is look at the spark plugs.
Take a pic of those..


Wood could verify for us but the second pic is a better representation.
Blown up here with the red arrow showing the actual aluminium piston surface where the carbon has flaked off, the rest of the piston has a very thick hard layer of carbon covering it.


The cylinders are oil glazed and the OP said the heads were removed, decarboned and resealed. now here it is sucking even more oil past the rings. It needed a total topend to begin with.

Added
If you look close the missing carbon chip goes from the edge of the piston right up to the edge of the valve relief. I would bet it was thick enough to be struck by the valve during overlap and that is what chipped the carbon off.


I can see that now.
Wow the silver really threw me off. I was thinking the piston was so melted that the ring was showing. But the ring did look a tad wide.....
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Offline Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers

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Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #42 on: November 05, 2017, 04:35:34 PM »
The very first picture tells me the story. If you look at the bore you will see the piston has chunks missing. The chunks reflect on the wall.

One other way to tell is look at the spark plugs.
Take a pic of those..


Wood could verify for us but the second pic is a better representation.
Blown up here with the red arrow showing the actual aluminium piston surface where the carbon has flaked off, the rest of the piston has a very thick hard layer of carbon covering it.


The cylinders are oil glazed and the OP said the heads were removed, decarboned and resealed. now here it is sucking even more oil past the rings. It needed a total topend to begin with.

Added
If you look close the missing carbon chip goes from the edge of the piston right up to the edge of the valve relief. I would bet it was thick enough to be struck by the valve during overlap and that is what chipped the carbon off.


I can see that now.
Wow the silver really threw me off. I was thinking the piston was so melted that the ring was showing. But the ring did look a tad wide.....

And I think it has a lot to do with the lighting of the bore scope, being reflected.
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Online les

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Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #43 on: November 06, 2017, 08:06:12 AM »
Finally, when I've done compression tests, they have always shown proper compression even if the engine is having carbon knock.

Well I finally got around to doing a compression test: 115 psi Front and Rear @ cold; 120 psi Front and rear @ ~250 F engine temp  :crook:.

MPG runs from 40-45 depending on how hard a twist the throttle.

Going to do the top end and take a look in the cam chest. Someone have a nice low-end torque cam for this 96?

Following up with a leak down test would show exactly where the problem is (rings, valves, head gasket).

Offline Wood

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Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #44 on: February 12, 2018, 07:42:54 AM »
Try this to verify if it is carbon knock or not:
- Run the bike until it gets totally very hot and the clank goes away
- Pull the bike into the driveway or car wash and take about 15 minutes to gradually mist spray the engine with cold water (not so fast as to harm the engine but not to slow either) until the cylinders are cool.
- Start the engine.

If it's carbon knock, the clanking will be the worst you've ever heard because the cylinders will have shrink much faster than the piston rod.
[/quote]




This test worked; the clanking was the worst I ever heard.
.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 08:34:27 AM by Wood »

Offline Wood

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Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #45 on: February 12, 2018, 08:09:50 AM »
Well I finally got around to pulling the heads and jugs and this is what I found.

Front Head:

Offline Wood

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Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #46 on: February 12, 2018, 08:14:49 AM »
Front Piston:

Offline Wood

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Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #47 on: February 12, 2018, 08:16:14 AM »
Front Piston:

Offline Wood

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Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #48 on: February 12, 2018, 08:25:22 AM »
Rear Head:

Offline Wood

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Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #49 on: February 12, 2018, 08:27:44 AM »
Rear Piston: