Author Topic: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up  (Read 2603 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Wood

  • Member
  • Posts: 23
  • Country: us
Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #50 on: February 12, 2018, 08:29:30 AM »
Rear Piston:

Offline Wood

  • Member
  • Posts: 23
  • Country: us
Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #51 on: February 12, 2018, 08:33:06 AM »
The cylinders were suprisingly good, so I just had them deglazed.

Also just cleaned up the pistons and installed new rings.

Had the heads rebuilt; new guides, springs, seals and a little porting. The stock valves and seats were good.

Didnít change lifters and did not crack open the cam chest.

Now have 300 miles on her. She is running strong, and is nice and quite at start-up.

Thanks for the input and feedback from everyone.



Offline koko3052

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5299
  • Country: ca
Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #52 on: February 12, 2018, 12:48:51 PM »
Gee, 80K & you didn't change the lifters on an '10. If just a deglaze & rings cured your oil consumption, you were very lucky...how long do you think that your luck is going to run? :scratch:

Offline 1FSTRK

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 7855
  • Country: 00
Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #53 on: February 12, 2018, 02:56:22 PM »
Gee, 80K & you didn't change the lifters on an '10. If just a deglaze & rings cured your oil consumption, you were very lucky...how long do you think that your luck is going to run? :scratch:

Check the OP
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

Offline Tynker

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 437
  • Country: us
  • Ride now, rest later
Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #54 on: February 12, 2018, 04:47:33 PM »
With 80 Kmiles and presumably the first set of lifters I suspect that one of the lifters lost its flow qualities. With engine oil at operating temperatures the defunct lifter bleeds down faster and when you start the cold engine the thicker oil fails to pump up the lifter fast enough hence the clanking noise. You might use a stethoscope to pinpoint the origin of the noise or use long wooden stick if you don't have acces to a stethoscope. Probably the lifters should be replaced and make sure your engine oil level is adequate.

Armin.


OP said lifters have been replaced several times....A re read might help.
Earl "Tynker" Riviere

Offline N-gin

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4092
  • Country: us
  • \,,/ (>.<) \,,/ Brraaaaap!
Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #55 on: February 12, 2018, 07:23:20 PM »
All that and you didn't replace the pistons? At least measure the ring lands? I hope it works out for ya. I don't think I could go through all that and not replace pistons, even if same bore was used.

It does seem like a lot of carbon. did you check or replace the breathers while you were in there?
I'm not here cause of a path before me, Im here cause of the burnout left behind

Offline Wood

  • Member
  • Posts: 23
  • Country: us
Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #56 on: February 13, 2018, 03:33:32 PM »
All that and you didn't replace the pistons? At least measure the ring lands? I hope it works out for ya. I don't think I could go through all that and not replace pistons, even if same bore was used.

It does seem like a lot of carbon. did you check or replace the breathers while you were in there?


Yes, new breathers installed.

Online les

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 2831
Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #57 on: February 13, 2018, 07:42:58 PM »
Try this to verify if it is carbon knock or not:
- Run the bike until it gets totally very hot and the clank goes away
- Pull the bike into the driveway or car wash and take about 15 minutes to gradually mist spray the engine with cold water (not so fast as to harm the engine but not to slow either) until the cylinders are cool.
- Start the engine.

If it's carbon knock, the clanking will be the worst you've ever heard because the cylinders will have shrink much faster than the piston rod.




This test worked; the clanking was the worst I ever heard.
.
[/quote]


I'm the one who developed this test and posted it.  I have some potentially bad news for you.  Depending on how long you've been pounding the pistons on the squish area of the head, you're crank bearings may already be in a state of rapid decline.

I found this out by getting stranded in Twin Falls, Idaho (a couple thousand miles from home).  When I left home, the engine sounded really great, and 5000 miles later in the middle of the wild west, the bottom end let failed.  Bottom end failure can and will take out the pistons and cylinders.

So, while you still have a good rebuilt engine, you may want to consider getting a new flywheel assembly and taking the trouble to put it in.

Offline Wood

  • Member
  • Posts: 23
  • Country: us
Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #58 on: February 14, 2018, 10:53:51 AM »
Try this to verify if it is carbon knock or not:
- Run the bike until it gets totally very hot and the clank goes away
- Pull the bike into the driveway or car wash and take about 15 minutes to gradually mist spray the engine with cold water (not so fast as to harm the engine but not to slow either) until the cylinders are cool.
- Start the engine.

If it's carbon knock, the clanking will be the worst you've ever heard because the cylinders will have shrink much faster than the piston rod.

This test worked; the clanking was the worst I ever heard.


I'm the one who developed this test and posted it.  I have some potentially bad news for you.  Depending on how long you've been pounding the pistons on the squish area of the head, you're crank bearings may already be in a state of rapid decline.

I found this out by getting stranded in Twin Falls, Idaho (a couple thousand miles from home).  When I left home, the engine sounded really great, and 5000 miles later in the middle of the wild west, the bottom end let failed.  Bottom end failure can and will take out the pistons and cylinders.

So, while you still have a good rebuilt engine, you may want to consider getting a new flywheel assembly and taking the trouble to put it in.
[/quote]

Thanks for the insight, unfortunately my very thin wallet prevents me from doing the flywheels. This Twin Cam is sucking way more money out of me than my Shovelhead. Have to come up with a plan 'B'.
.

Online les

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 2831
Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #59 on: February 14, 2018, 11:41:15 AM »
Got it about the wallet issue, and understood about not being able to do it now.  Plan B might be that you're aware that "possibly" your flywheel has been hurt by the abuse and maybe set your sights on something in the future.  Lot's of guys have take out flywheels that go for pretty cheap.  Keep your eye open for that great bargain.

I just know that before my out west trip, I rebuilt every damn thing in my engine and tranny (just to be stupidly safe) and the one damn thing I didn't re-do was the one damn thing that bit me.  Also, there was no indicator the bottom end was going until it did.

Offline 1workinman

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1003
  • Country: us
Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #60 on: February 14, 2018, 03:48:11 PM »
Got it about the wallet issue, and understood about not being able to do it now.  Plan B might be that you're aware that "possibly" your flywheel has been hurt by the abuse and maybe set your sights on something in the future.  Lot's of guys have take out flywheels that go for pretty cheap.  Keep your eye open for that great bargain.

I just know that before my out west trip, I rebuilt every damn thing in my engine and tranny (just to be stupidly safe) and the one damn thing I didn't re-do was the one damn thing that bit me.  Also, there was no indicator the bottom end was going until it did.
Bought a used  Harley not problems on the first one so Like a fool I bought a used one with 43k miles on it checked out ready to go at the dealer ship lol 1000 miles later crank out lol  . So I can say with certainty your right there .

Offline koko3052

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5299
  • Country: ca
Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #61 on: February 15, 2018, 07:54:12 AM »
Gee, 80K & you didn't change the lifters on an '10. If just a deglaze & rings cured your oil consumption, you were very lucky...how long do you think that your luck is going to run? :scratch:

Check the OP

With 80 Kmiles and presumably the first set of lifters I suspect that one of the lifters lost its flow qualities. With engine oil at operating temperatures the defunct lifter bleeds down faster and when you start the cold engine the thicker oil fails to pump up the lifter fast enough hence the clanking noise. You might use a stethoscope to pinpoint the origin of the noise or use long wooden stick if you don't have acces to a stethoscope. Probably the lifters should be replaced and make sure your engine oil level is adequate.

Armin.


OP said lifters have been replaced several times....A re read might help.

Ooops! I originally did read it....sorry. :embarrassed:
Wood...I hope that you overcome your "knocking" issue. Maybe ride the shovel while you tear down the twinkie & watch for a cheap crank. There are many take outs from new floating around & by doing it all yourself you will save a pile. :up:
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 08:02:36 AM by koko3052 »

Online les

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 2831
Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #62 on: February 15, 2018, 10:20:48 AM »
Gee, 80K & you didn't change the lifters on an '10. If just a deglaze & rings cured your oil consumption, you were very lucky...how long do you think that your luck is going to run? :scratch:

Check the OP

With 80 Kmiles and presumably the first set of lifters I suspect that one of the lifters lost its flow qualities. With engine oil at operating temperatures the defunct lifter bleeds down faster and when you start the cold engine the thicker oil fails to pump up the lifter fast enough hence the clanking noise. You might use a stethoscope to pinpoint the origin of the noise or use long wooden stick if you don't have acces to a stethoscope. Probably the lifters should be replaced and make sure your engine oil level is adequate.

Armin.


OP said lifters have been replaced several times....A re read might help.

Ooops! I originally did read it....sorry. :embarrassed:
Wood...I hope that you overcome your "knocking" issue. Maybe ride the shovel while you tear down the twinkie & watch for a cheap crank. There are many take outs from new floating around & by doing it all yourself you will save a pile. :up:

He has solved it by removing all the carbon build up.  But we don't know what damage the hitting of the pistons on the head has done to his crank.  The problem was carbon knock.

My engine (2011) still has a gremlin inside.  I think it's a defect in the heads.  Maybe there was a series around the 2010/2011 range.  My carbon knock started around 9000 miles on my brand new bike.  When I found out what it was and changed the pistons (went to a 103") the knock went away, of course.  Then it came back a 5000 miles.  So, I scraped the carbon off.  No knock.  Then 5000 miles, the carbon knock appeared again.  Again, I think it's a defect with the heads.  Maybe some oil coming around the valve guides, or a crack in the head letting oil through.

Offline koko3052

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5299
  • Country: ca
Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #63 on: February 15, 2018, 11:58:02 AM »
You can fix that quite easily... a drop in 124"! :wink:
Pulling the heads every 5K would get old pretty quick with me as I would have to do it midstream of my holidays. When you pull them to do the cleanup why don't you have them magna fluxed?

Offline kd

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5715
  • Country: ca
Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #64 on: February 15, 2018, 01:23:04 PM »
The cure is venting to atmosphere. As we all know, the carbon is a product of oil vapor introduced to the engine from the head breathers. If you don't like a simple tube to the ground, use a catch can. If that's not enough, route through a catch can and then back to the breather.

.....or you can start running the bag off it so carbon doesn't get a chance to accumulate.  :teeth:
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 03:03:34 PM by kd »
KD

Offline harley_cruiser

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1996
  • Country: us
    • Rocker Lockers
Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #65 on: February 15, 2018, 04:08:25 PM »
It's hard to tell from the photos but that doesn't look like oil carbon to me. Carb, or injected? How is your tune?

Offline Wood

  • Member
  • Posts: 23
  • Country: us
Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #66 on: February 15, 2018, 05:00:21 PM »
The cure is venting to atmosphere. As we all know, the carbon is a product of oil vapor introduced to the engine from the head breathers. If you don't like a simple tube to the ground, use a catch can. If that's not enough, route through a catch can and then back to the breather.

.....or you can start running the bag off it so carbon doesn't get a chance to accumulate.  :teeth:


I'll strongly think about venting to the atmosphere; thanks!

Offline Wood

  • Member
  • Posts: 23
  • Country: us
Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #67 on: February 15, 2018, 05:04:44 PM »
It's hard to tell from the photos but that doesn't look like oil carbon to me. Carb, or injected? How is your tune?

I thought the pictures were pretty clear, anyway it is oil carbon.

Being a stock FLTRX, it is injected.

PV tune, getting about 40-45 MPG depending on how I twist the throttle.
.

Offline harley_cruiser

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1996
  • Country: us
    • Rocker Lockers
Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #68 on: February 15, 2018, 05:08:14 PM »
It's hard to tell from the photos but that doesn't look like oil carbon to me. Carb, or injected? How is your tune?

I thought the pictures were pretty clear, anyway it is oil carbon.

Being a stock FLTRX, it is injected.

PV tune, getting about 40-45 MPG depending on how I twist the throttle.
.
:up:

Online les

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 2831
Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #69 on: February 16, 2018, 07:05:02 AM »
You can fix that quite easily... a drop in 124"! :wink:
Pulling the heads every 5K would get old pretty quick with me as I would have to do it midstream of my holidays. When you pull them to do the cleanup why don't you have them magna fluxed?

Bingo.  I'm about ready to drop in my 124" I've been working on all winter.  When I swap out the problematic 103", I will have the heads magna fluxed.  I have no proof, but I believe there was a series of flawed heads around the 2010-2011 timeframe.

Online les

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 2831
Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #70 on: February 16, 2018, 07:08:03 AM »
The cure is venting to atmosphere. As we all know, the carbon is a product of oil vapor introduced to the engine from the head breathers. If you don't like a simple tube to the ground, use a catch can. If that's not enough, route through a catch can and then back to the breather.

.....or you can start running the bag off it so carbon doesn't get a chance to accumulate.  :teeth:

Me too, thank you.

I'll strongly think about venting to the atmosphere; thanks!

Offline 1FSTRK

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 7855
  • Country: 00
Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #71 on: February 21, 2018, 04:33:39 AM »
You can fix that quite easily... a drop in 124"! :wink:
Pulling the heads every 5K would get old pretty quick with me as I would have to do it midstream of my holidays. When you pull them to do the cleanup why don't you have them magna fluxed?

Bingo.  I'm about ready to drop in my 124" I've been working on all winter.  When I swap out the problematic 103", I will have the heads magna fluxed.  I have no proof, but I believe there was a series of flawed heads around the 2010-2011 timeframe.

 :scratch:
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

Offline rbabos

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 13238
  • Country: ca
Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #72 on: February 21, 2018, 08:52:16 AM »
You can fix that quite easily... a drop in 124"! :wink:
Pulling the heads every 5K would get old pretty quick with me as I would have to do it midstream of my holidays. When you pull them to do the cleanup why don't you have them magna fluxed?

Bingo.  I'm about ready to drop in my 124" I've been working on all winter.  When I swap out the problematic 103", I will have the heads magna fluxed.  I have no proof, but I believe there was a series of flawed heads around the 2010-2011 timeframe.
Pretty sure you meant dye pen.
Ron

Online les

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 2831
Re: Loud clanking and noisy lifters at start-up
« Reply #73 on: February 21, 2018, 09:18:56 AM »
You can fix that quite easily... a drop in 124"! :wink:
Pulling the heads every 5K would get old pretty quick with me as I would have to do it midstream of my holidays. When you pull them to do the cleanup why don't you have them magna fluxed?

Bingo.  I'm about ready to drop in my 124" I've been working on all winter.  When I swap out the problematic 103", I will have the heads magna fluxed.  I have no proof, but I believe there was a series of flawed heads around the 2010-2011 timeframe.
Pretty sure you meant dye pen.
Ron

Yes, sorry.