Author Topic: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?  (Read 1326 times)

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Offline codyshop

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Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« on: October 18, 2017, 06:48:29 PM »
The old Fatboy is in need of a top-end job and I'm kicking around a few ideas.  One, rebore the existing cylinders with oversized Wiseco flat tops, Sifton 83" kit with Wiseco flattops that still uses an iron liner or the Rev. Performance 85" kit with Wiseco flat tops that has no iron liner...just a nickel-silicon coating on the aluminum bore.  Experiences?  I know BMW and others have been using the nikasils for decades but they have much shorter strokes.  Thanks

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2017, 07:18:04 PM »
Just say AXTELL.
Buy their cast iron units with the 10.5 pistons .
These will not walk around and leak like aluminium will.
Have them reshape your combustion chambers.
0.030 head gaskt.
Dial in 0.030 squish.
Double plug with Daytona twin tech.
Do a blended valve job .
Blended guides.
DM 530 Cam or equivalent.
I  can say 20K miles later This works!
Reliable and flat screams-  heavy, fast, whatever you like.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Online rigidthumper

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2017, 08:12:35 PM »
Ray, I wouldn't spend all that $ for a product that isn't popular/widely used?
Better off with boring your stuff .010" over ( or whatever is needed) and spending the extra coin on a new cam & headwork.
Properly bored, seasoned cylinders work well for a long time.  I'm a huge fan of Doug Coffee's system 85 kit.
If you never measure your work, you can assume it's perfect.
Doesn't make it so.

Offline prodrag1320

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2017, 04:22:35 AM »
we do 85" kits using your cylinders,ide stay away from the rev perf nikasil stuff

Offline Scott P

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2017, 04:26:55 AM »
Round/straight bores, say +.020", Wood 8 cam, 42 Mik, or S&S E with a T/jet, 10.75 cr, Thunderheader, Supertrapp 2/1 or even S/E slip-ons, get the heads re-worked, and a Dyna 2000i......let-r-rip.
90/90 with ease.
Otto Knowbetter sez, '"Don't mistake kindness, for weakness".

Offline 92flhtcu

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2017, 05:49:55 AM »
As someone that reps in the industry in Wisconsin, I see a lot of Rev Perf/ Millenial issues in this neck of the woods. i'm not bashing, just observing what I see. they had issues with their early nikasil stuff. I also see some success with some of their stuff as well, but not any nikasil
Need a bigger garage

Offline PoorUB

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2017, 03:25:13 PM »
Not that it matters but many of the imports run a high silicon aluminum alloy engine block, not nikasil. There is also a process to apply a high silicon aluminum alloy coating to cylinder walls. I don't believe nikasil is as widely used as many think.
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Online wfolarry

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2017, 11:30:48 AM »
Not that it matters but many of the imports run a high silicon aluminum alloy engine block, not nikasil. There is also a process to apply a high silicon aluminum alloy coating to cylinder walls. I don't believe nikasil is as widely used as many think.

Chevy tried that with the Vega back in the 70ís. Look what happened with that.
Just because something works in one application doesnít mean it will work in all.
Look at what Ford did with their new Coyote motor. Havenít heard anything bad about that. I thoug that process would trickle down to the Motorcycle market.

Offline PoorUB

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2017, 05:39:23 PM »
Not that it matters but many of the imports run a high silicon aluminum alloy engine block, not nikasil. There is also a process to apply a high silicon aluminum alloy coating to cylinder walls. I don't believe nikasil is as widely used as many think.

Chevy tried that with the Vega back in the 70ís. Look what happened with that.
Just because something works in one application doesnít mean it will work in all.
Look at what Ford did with their new Coyote motor. Havenít heard anything bad about that. I thoug that process would trickle down to the Motorcycle market.

My 2003 Yamaha R1 is a high silicon alloy block. I bought it with a blown rod, but the eBay engine that is in it now doesn't burn a drop of oil, not sure how many miles are on that engine, but i put 5,000 or more on it.

Pretty sure some of the newer BMW car engine are high silicon alloy too. I wonder how they made it work and other did not. Perhaps Chevy was before it's time and the engineering just was not up to speed.
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Offline aswracing

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2017, 06:04:41 AM »
The old Fatboy is in need of a top-end job and I'm kicking around a few ideas.  One, rebore the existing cylinders with oversized Wiseco flat tops, Sifton 83" kit with Wiseco flattops that still uses an iron liner or the Rev. Performance 85" kit with Wiseco flat tops that has no iron liner...just a nickel-silicon coating on the aluminum bore.  Experiences?  I know BMW and others have been using the nikasils for decades but they have much shorter strokes.  Thanks

My experience with them has been bad. And not just the plating issues they're known for. Specifically, the Evo Big Twin versions caused studs to pull out of the cases. Something about the way the cylinder was twisting and distorting as it grew with heat was causing it. Replaced it with an Axtell kit and the problem was solved. The Axtell cast iron cylinder is a rock solid piece that adds stability and strength to the whole engine assembly and maintains great ring seal as a result.

Listen to the people on this thread. They have experience. Just because nikasil works in one application, for which the motor was engineered for it, does not mean it works in another application in which it's been dropped into an existing design. Save yourself a lot of grief and get the Axtell kit or bore your stock cylinders.

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2017, 06:23:18 AM »
Porsche aircooled engines used Niky forever in their  cars.
No problems even in turbo aplications, with lots of boost .
I will just have to guess its a matter of manufacturing process.

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Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2017, 04:49:12 AM »
 Nikasil and other plated cylinder coatings depend on a stable cylinder design to support the coating. The harley cylinder depends on a thick cast iron or stronger steel liner to provide it's stability. If you over bore, or remove the liner from the Harley cylinder design before plating you now have neither a stable cylinder nor a stable liner.

Offline turboprop

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2017, 05:39:37 PM »
Good grief. RevPerf and their nikasil cylinders have been discussed extensively countless times on this forum. The subject should have its own section. I bet a simple search on this page will turn up many previous discussions. Would be great if the Admins here could simply lock new conversations and redirect to existing threads. At least that way everything would be in one spot.
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Offline codyshop

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2017, 09:55:32 PM »
Good grief. RevPerf and their nikasil cylinders have been discussed extensively countless times on this forum. The subject should have its own section. I bet a simple search on this page will turn up many previous discussions. Would be great if the Admins here could simply lock new conversations and redirect to existing threads. At least that way everything would be in one spot.

I did.  Two hits and none in "EVO 1340."

Offline turboprop

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2017, 06:22:34 AM »
Good grief. RevPerf and their nikasil cylinders have been discussed extensively countless times on this forum. The subject should have its own section. I bet a simple search on this page will turn up many previous discussions. Would be great if the Admins here could simply lock new conversations and redirect to existing threads. At least that way everything would be in one spot.

I did.  Two hits and none in "EVO 1340."

Go to the home page, search nikasil, there are five pages of hits. The 85" is not a big enough discriminator. Its all the same stuff.
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Offline thumper 823

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2017, 07:07:59 AM »
I will shorten it up for ya-
Nothing wrong with nikies.
However, there can be everything wrong with the vendor that sells it to you.
CHOOSE a business that KNOWS how !
I have used EBS B4 , no problems .
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline barrybasinger

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2017, 07:52:29 AM »
... Specifically, the Evo Big Twin versions caused studs to pull out of the cases. Something about the way the cylinder was twisting and distorting as it grew with heat was causing it...   
Thank you very much for that tidbit. We've had two instances of studs pulling (one on a brand new set of S&S cases) in the last year or so. Fixed 'em, but never thought that the jugs could be the source of the problem. Now I'm curious. Will have to check and see if we still have any info on those bikes.

Offline JW113

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2017, 05:36:21 PM »
Hmm, I would have suspected it more to be the grade/strength of the aluminum alloy in those evo castings. Near as I can see, twin cams have essentially the same construction as an evo, i.e. cast aluminum case, four studs per cylinder, and aluminum cylinders with iron liner. So why do twin cams seldom pull studs?

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Offline rageglide

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2017, 08:17:13 PM »
Like turboprop said, pretty well beat to death.  At least from a Twinkie perspective.  But I can't imagine an Evo is much different.  Both are fairly long cylinders that do a shimmy shake as they grow.  BMW air and oil heads have short cylinders, and probably same with the Porsche, so I'd guess they are much more stable.  All the sport bikes use high silicon alloy and are very stable thanks to water cooling.  So it's really not fair comparison.   Haven't heard anyone complaining about T-Man's nikasil cylinders so maybe he's got a better vendor.

Seems like an expensive and risky option if anything, with no overbore.  Screw it up and you're buying new.  Better to stick with tried and true.  IMO

Offline turboprop

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2017, 07:47:29 AM »
Like turboprop said, pretty well beat to death.  At least from a Twinkie perspective.  But I can't imagine an Evo is much different.  Both are fairly long cylinders that do a shimmy shake as they grow.  BMW air and oil heads have short cylinders, and probably same with the Porsche, so I'd guess they are much more stable.  All the sport bikes use high silicon alloy and are very stable thanks to water cooling.  So it's really not fair comparison.   Haven't heard anyone complaining about T-Man's nikasil cylinders so maybe he's got a better vendor.

Seems like an expensive and risky option if anything, with no overbore.  Screw it up and you're buying new.  Better to stick with tried and true.  IMO


No such thing. He puts his name on RevPerf cylinders. Aside from RevPerf and thier parent company, I know of no other facility in the world that is making nikasil cylinders for the harley application.
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Offline Ironheadmike

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2018, 03:46:45 AM »
It seems that all of the motors that you all are talking about  are liquid cooled . Could this be why the nik is not as good in an air cooled motor ?

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2018, 04:03:06 AM »
The old Porsche 911 engines NA and AA   used  Nikasil forever.
The turbos can be made to pump out way over 600 HP.
Again, its a matter of who does it.
 One has to start with a proper foundation B4 anything will stick to it.
I would call EBS racing and see if they still do them.

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Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline Scott P

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2018, 04:22:49 AM »
When in doubt, bore the cast iron out....
Otto Knowbetter sez, '"Don't mistake kindness, for weakness".

Offline kd

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2018, 05:49:33 AM »
I guess you have to ask yourself if your looking for a challenge or something that works every time.   :scratch:
KD

Offline turboprop

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2018, 07:05:56 AM »
And the circle of life continues. Good grief.
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Offline rbabos

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2018, 10:27:41 AM »
It seems that all of the motors that you all are talking about  are liquid cooled . Could this be why the nik is not as good in an air cooled motor ?
Aircraft industry would disagree with that statement.
Ron

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2018, 10:42:43 AM »
Ya think? LOL
There is no end to the experts in a forum....
Once in awhile the plating will fail on them too.
But seriously,  Like I have said so many times..it is not the material, it is the application.
Speaking of Franklin 210 HP...
i need some usable cylinders if you run across them.
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Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2018, 10:45:17 AM »
Pretty hard to pass judgment on the process when there is only one game in the harley biz don't you think?

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2018, 10:59:10 AM »
I just got off the phone with EBS.
Yes they still do them.
talk to -
Don Weaver.
EBS Racing
They do literally 10000s of all kinds of cylinders.
Every month.
They did my Porsche a long long time ago.
So without reservation i recommend EBS
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No more whining
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Offline turboprop

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #29 on: January 29, 2018, 11:18:51 AM »
I just got off the phone with EBS.
Yes they still do them.
talk to -
Don Weaver.
EBS Racing
They do literally 10000s of all kinds of cylinders.
Every month.
They did my Porsche a long long time ago.
So without reservation i recommend EBS
Don Weaver     1 775 673 1300

No more whining

Where would someone get an all aluminum/un-lined harley cylinder for EBS to plate?
'The Thread Killer' - Worn with pride.

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2018, 11:44:36 AM »
Ya think? LOL
There is no end to the experts in a forum....
Once in awhile the plating will fail on them too.
But seriously,  Like I have said so many times..it is not the material, it is the application.
Speaking of Franklin 210 HP...
i need some usable cylinders if you run across them.

New ones join every day then we have to go through the entire education process again.

Added
You should do a search on this subject in the different areas of this forum and read all the information already posted. HD cylinders have a unique design that adds some complications to the proven process of plated cylinders.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2018, 11:51:29 AM by 1FSTRK »

Offline rbabos

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2018, 12:30:33 PM »
Ya think? LOL
There is no end to the experts in a forum....
Once in awhile the plating will fail on them too.
But seriously,  Like I have said so many times..it is not the material, it is the application.
Speaking of Franklin 210 HP...
i need some usable cylinders if you run across them.
Sorry, I've been out of the loop for a while. Is that for a rotorcraft, possibly Hiller? 6V-335-B  210hp @ 3100 rpms.
Ron

Offline rbabos

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2018, 12:33:00 PM »
Ya think? LOL
There is no end to the experts in a forum....
Once in awhile the plating will fail on them too.
But seriously,  Like I have said so many times..it is not the material, it is the application.
Speaking of Franklin 210 HP...
i need some usable cylinders if you run across them.

New ones join every day then we have to go through the entire education process again.

Added
You should do a search on this subject in the different areas of this forum and read all the information already posted. HD cylinders have a unique design that adds some complications to the proven process of plated cylinders.
Not exactly a word I'd use. :wink:
Ron

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2018, 12:36:13 PM »
Ya think? LOL
There is no end to the experts in a forum....
Once in awhile the plating will fail on them too.
But seriously,  Like I have said so many times..it is not the material, it is the application.
Speaking of Franklin 210 HP...
i need some usable cylinders if you run across them.

New ones join every day then we have to go through the entire education process again.

Added
You should do a search on this subject in the different areas of this forum and read all the information already posted. HD cylinders have a unique design that adds some complications to the proven process of plated cylinders.
Not exactly a word I'd use. :wink:
Ron

I try to adhere to the HTT no foul language rules.

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2018, 01:39:42 PM »
Ya think? LOL
There is no end to the experts in a forum....
Once in awhile the plating will fail on them too.
But seriously,  Like I have said so many times..it is not the material, it is the application.
Speaking of Franklin 210 HP...
i need some usable cylinders if you run across them.
Sorry, I've been out of the loop for a while. Is that for a rotorcraft, possibly Hiller? 6V-335-B  210hp @ 3100 rpms.
Ron

Yes a Hiller You are right!
AND  it is the 210 version.
Bigger is better, in this case.and .I am not too picky.
they make a STC for slightly bigger version...
These are so old no one looks at much.

Also-If you ever run into a turbo charge system for one please let me know
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline rbabos

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2018, 01:43:57 PM »
Ya think? LOL
There is no end to the experts in a forum....
Once in awhile the plating will fail on them too.
But seriously,  Like I have said so many times..it is not the material, it is the application.
Speaking of Franklin 210 HP...
i need some usable cylinders if you run across them.
Sorry, I've been out of the loop for a while. Is that for a rotorcraft, possibly Hiller? 6V-335-B  210hp @ 3100 rpms.
Ron

Yes a Hiller You are right!
AND  it is the 210 version.
Bigger is better, in this case.and .I am not too picky.
they make a STC for slightly bigger version...
These are so old no one looks at much.

Also-If you ever run into a turbo charge system for one please let me know
Will do.
Ron

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #36 on: January 29, 2018, 02:03:43 PM »
Thanx!

Now back to the regularly scheduled   program
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Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #37 on: January 30, 2018, 05:16:46 AM »
I just got off the phone with EBS.
Yes they still do them.
talk to -
Don Weaver.
EBS Racing
They do literally 10000s of all kinds of cylinders.
Every month.
They did my Porsche a long long time ago.
So without reservation i recommend EBS
Don Weaver     1 775 673 1300

No more whining

Where would someone get an all aluminum/un-lined harley cylinder for EBS to plate?


Pretty relevant question.   :up:

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Offline thumper 823

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #38 on: January 30, 2018, 12:27:45 PM »
You guys like to fuss about much.
Nah nah I am right Your wrong, we are teenie boppers here, big blah blah blah!
I know more than you, like children
Why not Call them up ?,
 I did,
They said the could do it...why carry on like you have a bone to pick?
Go join a bingo club for gods sake.
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Offline Ironheadmike

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #39 on: January 31, 2018, 09:54:08 AM »
It seems that all of the motors that you all are talking about  are liquid cooled . Could this be why the nik is not as good in an air cooled motor ?
Aircraft industry would disagree with that statement.
Ron
I was just asking . Also an aircraft motor is running most of the time in cold temps . I was just wondering if the extreme heat had something to do with it .

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #40 on: January 31, 2018, 10:43:51 AM »
Again as I will often repeat myself -
 Look to Porsche for answers for engines.
Look to the military for answers to helicopters.
A helicopter recip is using lots of power at hover .
Yes, they have a fan to run air over the air-cooled cylinders, but they, however, they are air cooled.
They work way harder than any HD engine ever will and TBO is usually 1600 to 2000 HRS.
I have been on both teams , not an expert but I know a couple things.
Porsche has made 12 cylinder air cooled race engines way over a 1000 HP.
The flat 6 AA  is quite common to find on the street near 600p
Keep in mind the turbo  TQ COMES ON now.
The 911 / 930  ran all niky in the high-end stuff.
Again it is NoT the material.
It is the procedure that fails.
It happens but not often in the real world.
I am not sure who has been doing the Harley stuff you guys complain about, ,
 but transparently they are not doing it correctly if they all fail.
Remember what crazy is, -doing it the same way and expecting.................different results.
Move on .
« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 10:49:31 AM by thumper 823 »
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Offline rbabos

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #41 on: January 31, 2018, 12:32:10 PM »
It seems that all of the motors that you all are talking about  are liquid cooled . Could this be why the nik is not as good in an air cooled motor ?
Aircraft industry would disagree with that statement.
Ron
I was just asking . Also an aircraft motor is running most of the time in cold temps . I was just wondering if the extreme heat had something to do with it .
Aircraft engines are designed to run in extreme cold and extreme heat so I doubt there is a connection. What they do have is baffling to direct cooling air around the cyls so cooling is even and the fin mass is very equal around the bore. HD has uneven cooling around the uneven fin mass around the barrels so they can distort as a result. Oddly enough fan cooled engines like in helicopters seldom have warped cyls due to well thought out air direction around the cyls and they cannot be shock cooled. On a fixed wing, one can shock cool them that can screw them up. Climb out, then a long decent at idle will cost you some $$$ next annual inspection.  Some pilots are idiots with poor engine management skills.
Ron

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #42 on: January 31, 2018, 12:39:44 PM »
Perhaps Harley jugs just are not a stable platform?
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline rbabos

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Re: Revolution Performance 85" evo kit experience?
« Reply #43 on: January 31, 2018, 01:21:01 PM »
Perhaps Harley jugs just are not a stable platform?
I never thought so but what do I know. Run them, exposed to many heat cycles and the next hone/bore oversize they seem to retain shape better, at least the impression I got.
Ron