Author Topic: Back in the EVO game!  (Read 2988 times)

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Offline JW113

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Back in the EVO game!
« on: October 30, 2017, 05:49:28 PM »
Well hot diggity dog. I found myself a bike that I've been looking for, for a while now. Went and did a look-see last weekend, put a deposit on it, will go back on Friday to ride it home.

1992 Softail Heritage FLSTC, Turquoise and Cream, 36,000 miles.
 :baby:

I had a '91 Heritage, and sure have been missing it. This one is in pretty decent shape overall, a bit of nasty ding in the top of the front fender where some Bozo had mounted a tool bag to the passing lamp crossover bar and bottomed the front end over something. Other than that, the only major issue with it is a whole bunch of pose-astic crap bolted and glued all over it. You know that Live to Ride garbage on the gas caps, derby, yadda, yadda, and other functional stuff that's been replaced with chrome versions of. The tires are also worn to the point of needing replaced, which is a good thing, since I truly hate those pimpmoble white wall tires on a motorcycle. (no offense!!)  :SM:

So task one after getting it home is to de-posify it, then do a thorough inspection of all the mechanicals. No idea if the cam has been replaced, probably not. So at a minimum, swap the cam, push rods, tappets, and inner cam bearing. After 25 years, the charging systems is also likely ether gone or on the way out, so will deal with that also. The bike was on a charger when I showed up to see it, so figure the battery very likely shot. I bought a new one today to take up there and drop in so at least I can get the thing home under it's own power if the stator is fried.

Will post some pix after I get it home and cleaned up a bit.

cheers,
JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline packrat56

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2017, 06:08:12 PM »
 :up: :up:
Now I know, why some animals eat their young.

Offline Hossamania

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2017, 08:35:02 PM »
I've always been partial to the turquoise and creme color scheme.
Congratulations, have fun with that one!
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Offline Flhfxd

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2017, 04:46:03 AM »
Nice project  :up:
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Offline Deye76

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2017, 05:02:52 AM »
Way to go JW, can't wait to see what you do with it. I know it will be cool, and run good. :up:
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Offline Pete_Vit

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2017, 06:25:46 AM »
Well hot diggity dog. I found myself a bike that I've been looking for, for a while now. Went and did a look-see last weekend, put a deposit on it, will go back on Friday to ride it home.

1992 Softail Heritage FLSTC, Turquoise and Cream, 36,000 miles.
 :baby:

I had a '91 Heritage, and sure have been missing it. This one is in pretty decent shape overall, a bit of nasty ding in the top of the front fender where some Bozo had mounted a tool bag to the passing lamp crossover bar and bottomed the front end over something. Other than that, the only major issue with it is a whole bunch of pose-astic crap bolted and glued all over it. You know that Live to Ride garbage on the gas caps, derby, yadda, yadda, and other functional stuff that's been replaced with chrome versions of. The tires are also worn to the point of needing replaced, which is a good thing, since I truly hate those pimpmoble white wall tires on a motorcycle. (no offense!!)  :SM:

So task one after getting it home is to de-posify it, then do a thorough inspection of all the mechanicals. No idea if the cam has been replaced, probably not. So at a minimum, swap the cam, push rods, tappets, and inner cam bearing. After 25 years, the charging systems is also likely ether gone or on the way out, so will deal with that also. The bike was on a charger when I showed up to see it, so figure the battery very likely shot. I bought a new one today to take up there and drop in so at least I can get the thing home under it's own power if the stator is fried.

Will post some pix after I get it home and cleaned up a bit.

cheers,
JW
  :up: nice find, can't wait to see the pix, the ST Heritage is one of my favorite Softails 
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Offline Burnout

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2017, 07:48:53 AM »
The FXR is my favorite Softail!   :potstir:

I never could figure out how to get a softail turned without dragging the floor boards....
They don't call me Ironhead Rick just because I'm "hard headed"

Offline SixShooter14

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2017, 08:09:11 AM »
The FXR is my favorite Softail!   :potstir:

I never could figure out how to get a softail turned without dragging the floor boards....
Take'em off...duh  :hyst:

congrats on the new ride, JW.
 :wwp:
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Offline gryphon

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2017, 12:38:52 PM »
It really slays me when guys hang "ride to Live" stuff all over a bike they never ride. It seems like the more they hang on it the less they ride it. I did a crash repair for a guy just a few years back. He had bought the bike new about 5 years prior. It was covered with every available RTL foo-foo gizmo he could find (mixed evenly with skull stuff). While the repair was still going on he stopped by constantly and couldn't stop talking about how he missed "being in the wind" etc etc. After 5 years of owning the bike it had like 1300 miles on it. I finally had to ask him how much he actually missed those 22 miles a month he was averaging. After that he quit coming over until the job was finished.

Offline Pete_Vit

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2017, 01:01:39 PM »
It really slays me when guys hang "ride to Live" stuff all over a bike they never ride. It seems like the more they hang on it the less they ride it. I did a crash repair for a guy just a few years back. He had bought the bike new about 5 years prior. It was covered with every available RTL foo-foo gizmo he could find (mixed evenly with skull stuff). While the repair was still going on he stopped by constantly and couldn't stop talking about how he missed "being in the wind" etc etc. After 5 years of owning the bike it had like 1300 miles on it. I finally had to ask him how much he actually missed those 22 miles a month he was averaging. After that he quit coming over until the job was finished.
  :hyst: :hyst:
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Offline thumper 823

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2017, 03:15:30 PM »
It really slays me when guys hang "ride to Live" stuff all over a bike they never ride. It seems like the more they hang on it the less they ride it. I did a crash repair for a guy just a few years back. He had bought the bike new about 5 years prior. It was covered with every available RTL foo-foo gizmo he could find (mixed evenly with skull stuff). While the repair was still going on he stopped by constantly and couldn't stop talking about how he missed "being in the wind" etc etc. After 5 years of owning the bike it had like 1300 miles on it. I finally had to ask him how much he actually missed those 22 miles a month he was averaging. After that he quit coming over until the job was finished.
  :hyst: :hyst:

Those- those are the 45 MPH white knucklers plugging up the roads ...
Too stupid and too scared to look in the mirrors and get tahelloutof theway !

i used to think less of them cause they trailer their chrome trash everywhere.
Now i have arrived at the conclusion - that trailering is not plug up the roads.
Its a better ride for me ! (and everyone else as they are driving what they are more comfortable in.)
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Amateur engineering with bad math.

Online david lee

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2017, 07:54:35 PM »
the best thing i did on my fx shovel was to get rid of aftermarket running boards and went to stock controls heaps more comfortable

Offline Breeze

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2017, 04:58:18 AM »
It really slays me when guys hang "ride to Live" stuff all over a bike they never ride. It seems like the more they hang on it the less they ride it. I did a crash repair for a guy just a few years back. He had bought the bike new about 5 years prior. It was covered with every available RTL foo-foo gizmo he could find (mixed evenly with skull stuff). While the repair was still going on he stopped by constantly and couldn't stop talking about how he missed "being in the wind" etc etc. After 5 years of owning the bike it had like 1300 miles on it. I finally had to ask him how much he actually missed those 22 miles a month he was averaging. After that he quit coming over until the job was finished.

Maybe he was one of the guys in this video (about 1 1/2 min. mark). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUB2darr5mU
I'm starting to believe my body is gonna outlast my mind.

Offline nibroc

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2017, 06:32:55 AM »
thanks for posting that vid Breeze

Online david lee

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2017, 01:47:32 PM »
a mate of mine used to have a 1987 black and cream heritage which he couldnt kill.this trike im trying to buy of a stubbon owner has a rev tec motor which i will replace with a evo.can anyone give me some advice how to convince the owner to sell besides flashing cash at him. thanks all
« Last Edit: November 01, 2017, 01:56:42 PM by david lee »

Offline PoorUB

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2017, 04:54:40 PM »
this trike im trying to buy of a stubbon owner has a rev tec motor which i will replace with a evo.can anyone give me some advice how to convince the owner to sell besides flashing cash at him. thanks all

I am confused, you are trying to buy a trike that is not for sale?
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Offline JW113

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2017, 07:55:52 PM »
Pics are on the way, I'm headed up there at 0-dark-thirty tomorrow morning to get it. Forecast is rain for Friday through Sunday, and sure don't want to get stuck on a bike of unknown provenance in the pouring rain out on the freeway.

Yeah, live to ride, blah blah blah. 25 year old bike, 36,000 miles, that 120 miles a month. A real iron butt, eh? Anyway, I say more power to those guys. Means guys like me can find low miles old iron.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Online david lee

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2017, 10:59:56 PM »
this trike im trying to buy of a stubbon owner has a rev tec motor which i will replace with a evo.can anyone give me some advice how to convince the owner to sell besides flashing cash at him. thanks all

I am confused, you are trying to buy a trike that is not for sale?
he says he will sell it to me but when is the big question.

Offline hbkeith

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2017, 01:50:14 AM »
this trike im trying to buy of a stubbon owner has a rev tec motor which i will replace with a evo.can anyone give me some advice how to convince the owner to sell besides flashing cash at him. thanks all

I am confused, you are trying to buy a trike that is not for sale?
he says he will sell it to me but when is the big question.
   talks cheap , if you have not flashed cash at him , then you have NOT tried to buy it !

Offline Deye76

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2017, 05:32:11 AM »
For sure JW, safe travels.  :chop:
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Online david lee

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2017, 12:27:37 PM »
this trike im trying to buy of a stubbon owner has a rev tec motor which i will replace with a evo.can anyone give me some advice how to convince the owner to sell besides flashing cash at him. thanks all

I am confused, you are trying to buy a trike that is not for sale?
he says he will sell it to me but when is the big question.
   talks cheap , if you have not flashed cash at him , then you have NOT tried to buy it !
ive flashed cash $27000 crispy $100 bills which he even said is to much for the trike.he wants to enjoy it a bit before he sells it after re buying from the last guy he sold it to.he last sold it 4yrs ago for $25000 and re bought it for $20000. a mate said keep ringing him every 2 weeks until he cracks.thanks

Offline Hossamania

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2017, 12:52:22 PM »
Is that $27,000 American dollars? He's right, that's too much. Way too much.
But, maybe the market there is much tougher than here. Still, $20,000 for an old trike that you plan to pull the motor on seems steep.
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Offline PoorUB

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2017, 01:46:56 PM »
I guess you could hold a gun on him, but that might be a bit extreme.

The best way to get him to part with it is to buy a different trike. About the time you get it home he will call! :banghead:
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Online david lee

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2017, 02:11:11 PM »
this trike is registered.to find them and get them registered in australia is next to impossible they have to be engineered. i doubt the the trikes i see in the usa would pass regulations here.even to import them is to much drama and costly.im hopeing patience pays off. thanks

Offline Hossamania

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2017, 03:14:37 PM »
I hope it works out!
But now you bring up an interesting topic on trikes there. When you say they must be engineered, what is it that makes a stock Tri Glide unacceptable? How are they engineered to pass inspection?
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Offline John/1

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2017, 05:11:50 PM »
My first new Harley was a 1987 1/2  heritage softail FLSTC. She was bleu and cream a mid year special edition was a really nice bike. I paid 15,000 cnd for her really missed that bike
John

Online david lee

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2017, 05:58:56 PM »
I hope it works out!
But now you bring up an interesting topic on trikes there. When you say they must be engineered, what is it that makes a stock Tri Glide unacceptable? How are they engineered to pass inspection?
that could be alright {factory built) but a converted solo or one built from nothing needs engineering.also an imported vehicle has to have the headlights or headlight replaced as americans drive or ride on the opposite side of the road which makes the hi beam face the wrong direction.then there could be emissions drama. thanks

Offline Hossamania

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2017, 07:37:49 PM »
I understand now. I forgot that the one you are looking at is "homebuilt", or shop built, not a factory machine.
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Offline JW113

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2017, 08:12:14 PM »
Okey Dokey, the bike is home and in the garage. Was a bit of an adventure getting it home from Pacifica (to San Jose), about 50 miles, but hey isn't that what we do this for? The adventure?

So, let me tell a little about Pacifica, CA. It's the fog capital of the bay area, right on the Pacific Ocean, on the side of the Santa Cruz mountain. This set up is the ideal fog machine. People that live there (very expensive area btw) have a great view of the ocean. As long as you're STANDING in it! Anyway, today did not disappoint. Foggy and cold, maybe 40deg. Not ideal motorcycling weather, but not the point, read on.

So this bike is in what I'd call pretty good, but mechanically neglected condition. Nothing really major, but it's the little things that can put the adventure in a bike ride. For example, carb jetting. I don't know if the pilot jet is undersized, or is just partially plugged, but combine a VERY lean low speed jet with cold and fog and what do you get? POP-COUGH-POP-POP-POP-SNEEZE-SHUDDER.... you get the picture. It would run so-so OK with an accelerating throttle, but steady state, man alive that motor was not happy. Not to mention, I left the guy's place at 7:30am, right smack dab in the middle of rush hour. So a lot of stop/slow & go for quite a ways, the motor sounding a bag of Jiffy Pop in the microwave the whole time.

Maybe 10 miles later, I'm on the freeway and things calm down a little, since now it's got some throttle and pulling from the main jet. MOST of the time, still a POP-COUGH here and there. But then, rush hour, so quite a few back ups where I had to split lanes, and the lean pops were again going nuts. But, it made it home. Yay.

The other maintenance item is the clutch. Was pretty far out of adjustment, I had the lever against the bar and it would still creep at stop. Also would not very willing go into neutral, but used the "rev it up let off" technique, and could coax it into neutral most of the time.

So the one good piece of news. With rigid mount EVOs, aka Softails, the amount of perceived vibration tends to be all of the map. Some are like paint shakers, some are actually fairly smooth. My old '91 was the latter, fairly smooth. This one, to my delight, is probably the smoothest Softail I've ever been on. I had it up past 80, and the vibs were not objectionable at all. At 70 or below, smooth as glass. SMOOTHER than my TC Road King!

OK, picture time. Here it is as it landed in my driveway:

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Yes, loaded up with froo-froos and gee-gaws, and a little rough around the edges in places. Nothing I can handle. That dent in the top of the front fender is going to be a drag. I think a garage door came down on it, the visor on the headlight was all bent up as well.

So I spent maybe an hour doing some quick de-junking, and it already looks better. No more crash bar, handlebar tassels, visors, rear seat, luggage rack, or that really cool "Live to Ride" license plate frame.

[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

So either those white walls gotta go, or I need to get me a La CuCuRacha taco truck air horn. Eh, maybe not. Will get it some black Avons this weekend.

And one of the 'to do' items on my list was to put a 61T rear pulley and belt on it. I like that ratio for a freeway bike. In snooping around at the garage walls (my parts bin), I stumbled upon this:

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Wow, a 1-1/8" belt and 61T pulley! I think long ago I was going to fit a 150 rear tire to my '91 but never got around to it. Dang!

Will be a busy but fun weekend I think.

-JW
« Last Edit: November 02, 2017, 08:21:53 PM by FSG »
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline Hossamania

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2017, 08:19:26 PM »
Nice find! Still an eye catching paint scheme.
Count on the pilot jet needing a good cleaning at the least, replacing at most. Really, the whole carb needs a good cleaning, a rebuild, and good to go.
Good luck, hope it's a good machine for you.
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Online david lee

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2017, 08:37:22 PM »
what she cost ?

Offline JW113

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2017, 08:38:07 PM »
Yes indeed, you got that right. Will pull it apart, see how it's jetted, and throw it in the ultrasonic tank. 25 years of who knows what has to have found a home in it, so need to clear that crap outta there.

Oh, and those Supertrapp mufflers. Yucky-poo!! Looks like a snake swallowed a watermelon. Man it kills me that my two favorite exhaust systems, Khrome-werks and Cycle Shack, are both gone. I can't find anybody that makes the old traditional looking basic dual shorties for Evo softails anymore. About all I can find is high dollar "custom chopper hot rod OCC" crap that would look ridiculous on a mostly stock bike. I think Paughco might still make something along those lines, will have another look.

I think sometime in the past somebody posted that someplace is still selling off old Cycle Shack NOS inventory. Anybody in the know about that?

thanks,
JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline JW113

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2017, 08:39:27 PM »
Cost? $5K. Was the asking price on Craigslist, and I am not really the haggling type. It seemed fair to me.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Online david lee

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2017, 12:25:33 AM »
Cost? $5K. Was the asking price on Craigslist, and I am not really the haggling type. It seemed fair to me.

-JW
no bargains like that in australia.probably around $13000.what you going to do with the front guard, should knockout easy but i cant see you useing as youve said before a rattle can for paint.will you flip it or keep it

Offline Breeze

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #34 on: November 03, 2017, 05:50:58 AM »
Nice find!  I'm not a whitewall fan either, except on a Heritage, and your color scheme seems to work well with them. Hell, wear them out.  As for the front fender, remove it and let a "paintless dent repair" guy try his hand at it. I've seen some good results.
I'm starting to believe my body is gonna outlast my mind.

Offline Deye76

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #35 on: November 03, 2017, 06:00:57 AM »
Very clean bike JW. Agree the wide white walls have to go.  :up: Enjoy.
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Offline 72fl

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #36 on: November 03, 2017, 06:21:23 AM »
2nd on the paintless dent repair fender repai. Got a guy in Illinois that I have used and you can never tell where the dent WAS  :scratch:

Offline JC 92FXRS

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #37 on: November 03, 2017, 06:57:08 AM »
Nice find! I'll disagree with one thing though, I think white walls look very good on the two-tone cream Heritages.
Cheers and have fun with her, Jeff
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Offline JW113

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #38 on: November 03, 2017, 08:29:08 AM »
Hey I don't mean to be poopin' in anybody's pool over the white walls. Just not my thing. The rear one only has about 1K miles on it. You pay the postage, I'll mail 'em to ya!
 :SM:

Front fender: I already contacted "Dent Pro", he said dent too big, paint will crack. He clearly does not know about how HD used to lay down paint in the 90s, using the electro-static applied liquid process. It's like armor plating! Anyway I told him don't worry about that, just remove the dent. He says $300. Screw that, I had a guy in San Diego pull a dent out of my Indian's tank for $100. Will look for another paintless dent guy...

Flip it? HELL no!

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline Beave

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #39 on: November 03, 2017, 09:01:44 AM »
Great find. Beautiful bike.  My first new HD was a 1986 1/2 FLST Red and Cream.  Beautiful and bulletproof.  She sent many a shovel rider shopping for an Evo. From the Arctic circle in Alaska to the mountains of Mexico that machine always rumbled on. I sure miss that bike.  Oh, wait I still have it, and it is still a great ride!  The stock crank went south at 206K and it's now a 93" and coming up on 300K.  The stock 3.34 gears kick ass.  If your Heritage cruises smooth at 80 mph why would you gear it up?  I tried it, made her feel like a slug and didn't help a damn thing so I switched it back.  Good luck.
With speed comes stability.

Offline JC 92FXRS

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #40 on: November 03, 2017, 10:11:41 AM »
Hey I don't mean to be poopin' in anybody's pool over the white walls. Just not my thing. The rear one only has about 1K miles on it. You pay the postage, I'll mail 'em to ya!
 :SM:
-JW

Lol...not poopin' in my pool, just my thought on that style bike. Re: the offer...nope, whitewalls definitely won't do on my FXR  :smile:
Cheers, Jeff
"never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence"

Offline rageglide

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #41 on: November 03, 2017, 11:27:29 AM »
Congrats!   

I'll swing by later to check it out.  I'll look in my garage to see if I have a set of pythons or cycle shacks layin around, if so I'll bring em along. 


Offline Flhfxd

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #42 on: November 03, 2017, 12:41:28 PM »
Nice color. I always liked that combo. Agree...lose the Supertrapps. The white walls are a bit "out there" but they actually look better on that color combo bike than blacks. A bit of a throwback perhaps? IMHO that is. Leave em on it for a while and see if they "stick"?
"And the road goes on forever...... But I got one more silver dollar.....'

Offline jeffscycle

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #43 on: November 03, 2017, 12:42:58 PM »
    Keep the stock geared belt & go for a 6 speed (I had a rev tech in my old '87), best thing I ever did, best of both worlds. You couldn't give me a rev-tech now, but they worked if the power out put was reasonable, but the ultimas ain't that bad for a entry level tranny. Yeah, Yeah, Baker's are the best.

   When they came out with the 61 tooth drive in 1993 (European spec.) for the states, they created a dawg with stock power, not to mention hammer the lower end.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 12:49:33 PM by jeffscycle »
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Offline JW113

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #44 on: November 03, 2017, 01:02:03 PM »
Yes, it does OK at 80mph. But with the taller gearing, will feel like 70 when doing 80. They're just smoother if you can keep the cruising speed RPM to 3000. Also, for just general riding, 1st gear is purt near useless, you're shifting to 2nd at 15 mph. I get it, for better acceleration, 3.37 is better, but that's not what I need this bike for. And  certainly one of the beauties of the EVO platform, swapping the rear pulley and belt is a cake walk. If the 61T don't work out, no big deal to change to a 65T or back to 70T. I just ain't that worried about it.

61T (2.92:1) was standard gearing for 1993. In '94, it was about the same, 2.94:1 with a 65T rear pulley and the new primary drive ratio, right? Can't remember for sure, but at some point they stabilized on 3.16:1.

Yeah Bob, come on by! Exhaust pipes would be awesome. Don't happen to have a Heritage seat do ya?
 :SM:

see ya,
JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline rageglide

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #45 on: November 03, 2017, 02:00:46 PM »
'94 had 3.15 final drive and is the year they regeared the inner primary, back to 70T pulley.   95+ as I recall got a 65T and final drive was 2.93.   Baggers like your RK and my '05 Road Glide had 3.15:1.  New baggers are even taller than the 2.93 softail ratio.

I do have a heritage seat somewhere.  But you already have one, why do you need another?

Offline JW113

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #46 on: November 03, 2017, 04:13:16 PM »
The one that came with it is kinda shot, and I'm not sure it's a HD seat. It sat kinda weird, has no side brackets, and the pillion has "Saddleman" on it. I called HD this a.m. looking for one, none in stock anywhere. I think they make an alternate version, will check that out.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Online david lee

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #47 on: November 03, 2017, 07:59:49 PM »
being a panelbeater if anyone can knock that dent out without cracking the paint is worth every cent he charges

Offline JW113

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #48 on: November 04, 2017, 08:25:50 PM »
OK, so a little progress today and then a brick wall.

I pulled the wheels and had some Avon Cobras mounted, and went on a parts shopping spree. Since I had the wheels off, I figured what an ideal time to pull the primary and swap the 70T rear pulley and belt for the 61T that I have. All went well until I tried to get the compensator nut off. Holy crap, I have NEVER had a problem getting the comp nut off on anything. Except now. This freaking thing is so tight, or so overloaded with red loctite, that it feels welding on. I was using my 2 foot SnapOn breaker bar, with a shovelhead fork tube as a cheater, and I swear it was going to snap the breaker bar. I was giving it all I had, and it would not budge.

So I guess the next step is to fire up the oxy-acetylene and get it hotter then hell, and give it another try. Will likely swing by Harbor Fright and see what the largest 3/4 drive breaker bar they have also.

Why oh why do people do this to mechanical things?

On the lighter side...

I have a repair bill that the previous owner gave me, to show how it had been "maintained". He had it trailered to Dudley-Perkins Harley-Davidson (can I say that?), with a nail in the rear tire. He also complained that the rear break felt soft, and that the oil smelled 'gassy'. And it had also spewed out a bunch of oil one time when he fired it up. (this guy did not put hardly 1000 miles in 5 year on the bike)

So what did Dudley do? Sell him a new rear tire (existing one had 3500 miles on it), sell him a new carburetor to fix the gas getting into the oil, and replace the oil pump for the oil spew at start up. OK, so do any of you buy that?

Rear tire: hot patch the tire from the insie, replace the tube. DONE
Clean the carb, replace the float needle. DONE
Pull the oil pump check valve spring and ball bearing, clean the parts, give the ball a tap, re-assembly. DONE

I'm telling ya, the guy that owned this bike before me is the quintessential target market for the HD motor company. Big desire to "live to ride", at least down to the country club to show his golfing pals he's now a "biker", but no mechanical aptitude what-so-ever, so that the HD dealerships can mint money by selling him parts and service he doesn't really need.

And then there is me. Gotta get than damn compensator nut off.
 :doh:

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline rageglide

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #49 on: November 04, 2017, 09:52:25 PM »
Live to Pay, Pay to Live. The Auto and Moto industry makes more money on "fries" off these customers.   Exactly why I refuse to pay a dealer to do *anything*. I swear Corporate auto and moto service industries are just about the most corrupt services ever.


I was thinkin heat... and/or impact.   Not like you (and I) haven't rattled on a crank many times over the years. 


Offline thumper 823

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #50 on: November 05, 2017, 02:47:07 AM »
JW113-  quintessential
Yes, you nailed him and them!  Good term!
The 45MPH crowd that cannot go for a ride with without 45 other "BROS" plugging up the roads.
They sally up to ya(me ) and want to talk bike stuff....but the best they can do talk about the type of wax they use..
I always excuse myself from their wannabee bro crap .
Sometimes I explain if they do not know the difference between a primary chain and a cam chain we have nothing in common.
Other times i send a heat seeker and ask them a technical question.
 When the deer in the headlights expression arrives I also move on.
 I ant their bro
I am 65 years old and earned every mile i have ever road one way or another.
As I have said B4,  i am not so sure they even deserve to have a M/C
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline gryphon

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #51 on: November 05, 2017, 08:41:55 AM »
Thumper, I'm seeing fewer and fewer of those guys around here. They still come through in the summertime though. A few years back I read a post on this site by a very angry owner. Seems they bought a 20k+ motorcycle from their local dealer and joined the HOG. Then, either the dealership closed or they quit supporting the Owners Group (I don't remember which). The poster was furious that he had spent so much money on a motorcycle that was now "useless" because there was no HOG group to ride with. Another was mad because his bike had sat in the shop all summer long while Harley waited for a part to fix his radio. He lost an entire summer because he couldn't ride without his radio blasting. I sure did enjoy all the cheap zero mile parts that they put on ebay though.

Offline JW113

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #52 on: November 05, 2017, 08:47:30 AM »
Around here, what I often get is when I'm at a stop light, some 'bro' will be stopped next to me in a Lexus or BMW, put down his window and say something like 'man I gotta get out and ride' or 'I need to get into the wind' or other such nonsense. If I see other guys on Harleys, 99% of the time they just ignore me. Which is fine by me. Same is true if I happen to go down to the HD dealer for some parts, which I usually do on one my older bikes or Indian. Totally ignored. Then again, I don't exactly look like the typical Harley owner these days, and my bikes don't exactly look like the typical machine of the HOG crowd, so I can understand why.

From what I can see, these people don't buy motorcycles to ride, they buy them to WEAR. And in many cases, as an excuse to buy a whole new wardrobe that has Harley-Davidson printed on every piece of clothing they own. Ah such is life, and live and let live is my motto. Just don't call me bro!
 :sick:

Back to the comp nut.

Bob, I am seriously in doubt that a rattle gun will budge this thing, at least the one I have. Maybe a big ass 1" drive with 180psi of air behind it, but probably as likely to pull the threads right off the sprocket shaft! Heat is about the the only option at this time, and my worry there is taking the temper out of the nut, so likely will need to replace it. Will give a shot with some moderate heat and see how it goes. If no budge, then it's RED HOT time...  :crook:

(and I hope to hell that the clutch hub nut is not like this!)

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline Hossamania

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #53 on: November 05, 2017, 09:58:50 AM »
Not to be a wise ass, but are you turning it the right way? A couple guys in the past have torqued the wrong direction.
Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.

Offline JW113

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #54 on: November 05, 2017, 10:09:08 AM »
Counter-clockwise on the comp nut (RH thread)
Clockwise on the clutch hub nut (LH thread)

Good question to ask though!

So in the interest of working on other things that need more attention than an upgrade to 61T, am going to button the primary back up and save this project for a rainy day.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Online david lee

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #55 on: November 05, 2017, 01:01:08 PM »
OK, so a little progress today and then a brick wall.

I pulled the wheels and had some Avon Cobras mounted, and went on a parts shopping spree. Since I had the wheels off, I figured what an ideal time to pull the primary and swap the 70T rear pulley and belt for the 61T that I have. All went well until I tried to get the compensator nut off. Holy crap, I have NEVER had a problem getting the comp nut off on anything. Except now. This freaking thing is so tight, or so overloaded with red loctite, that it feels welding on. I was using my 2 foot SnapOn breaker bar, with a shovelhead fork tube as a cheater, and I swear it was going to snap the breaker bar. I was giving it all I had, and it would not budge.

So I guess the next step is to fire up the oxy-acetylene and get it hotter then hell, and give it another try. Will likely swing by Harbor Fright and see what the largest 3/4 drive breaker bar they have also.

Why oh why do people do this to mechanical things?

On the lighter side...

I have a repair bill that the previous owner gave me, to show how it had been "maintained". He had it trailered to Dudley-Perkins Harley-Davidson (can I say that?), with a nail in the rear tire. He also complained that the rear break felt soft, and that the oil smelled 'gassy'. And it had also spewed out a bunch of oil one time when he fired it up. (this guy did not put hardly 1000 miles in 5 year on the bike)

So what did Dudley do? Sell him a new rear tire (existing one had 3500 miles on it), sell him a new carburetor to fix the gas getting into the oil, and replace the oil pump for the oil spew at start up. OK, so do any of you buy that?

Rear tire: hot patch the tire from the insie, replace the tube. DONE
Clean the carb, replace the float needle. DONE
Pull the oil pump check valve spring and ball bearing, clean the parts, give the ball a tap, re-assembly. DONE

I'm telling ya, the guy that owned this bike before me is the quintessential target market for the HD motor company. Big desire to "live to ride", at least down to the country club to show his golfing pals he's now a "biker", but no mechanical aptitude what-so-ever, so that the HD dealerships can mint money by selling him parts and service he doesn't really need.

And then there is me. Gotta get than damn compensator nut off.
 :doh:

-JW
that hd dealer shore took him for a ride bro. sorry, mr jw

Offline FSG

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #56 on: November 05, 2017, 01:14:49 PM »
when you get back to it make sure you clean up the face of the socket and provide support to your socket/breaker bar




Online david lee

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #57 on: November 06, 2017, 02:56:14 AM »
a good rattle gun has never failed me

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #58 on: November 06, 2017, 03:18:02 AM »
I would not use a rattle gun on a crank for fear of bearing damage.
Never have I had a torch fail me with a cheater bar like the above pic.
With Real heat, nuts and bolts will generally start jumping off.
Personally, I like propane and oxy.
It is a LOT safer than acetylene.
It is just slightly slower and will do everything.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline guppymech

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #59 on: November 06, 2017, 05:52:33 AM »
Nice Bike!  Look at Paughco for a exhaust although they say they won't ship to Cal, maybe you can work around that.  I bought a set of their pipes for my Shovel and boy were they quiet.  Luckily the baffle ramp could be bent up to let more exhaust out. http://paughco.com/2008-catalog/indivpages/Harley-Davidson%20Evolution%20Exhaust%20Product%20Page.html
Also too bad about the money grabbing at Dudleys.  I bought two bikes there in the later 80's and they were nothing but great.  Tom Perkins (rip) was a super guy and his brother Jim ran the service dept.  I'm a mech by trade and they treated me as one of their own in the service dept while they de-smogged my bike before delivery.  A lot sure has changed from small dealership days.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 07:11:37 AM by guppymech »
'84 FXE, '02 883R

Online david lee

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #60 on: November 06, 2017, 12:51:26 PM »
I would not use a rattle gun on a crank for fear of bearing damage.
Never have I had a torch fail me with a cheater bar like the above pic.
With Real heat, nuts and bolts will generally start jumping off.
Personally, I like propane and oxy.
It is a LOT safer than acetylene.
It is just slightly slower and will do everything.
ive used oxy to with great success

Offline Burnout

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #61 on: November 07, 2017, 09:47:33 AM »
He wasn't talking about Oxycodone....


 :smiled:
They don't call me Ironhead Rick just because I'm "hard headed"

Online david lee

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #62 on: November 07, 2017, 12:15:36 PM »
He wasn't talking about Oxycodone....


 :smiled:
i meant the bottled flame stuff

Offline JW113

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #63 on: November 13, 2017, 03:03:01 PM »
Project update:

New tires & wheels, it's looking a lot better. The original wheels did not clean up very well, rust in the rims and the spokes were totally corroded. I had tried a set of those Ultima laced wheels on my Shovelhead, and thought they were actually pretty nice quality so opted to snag another set for this Evo.

Since I had to pull the wheels again, just kept turning wrenches until I had the primary off, and replaced the belt for the 61T rear pulley. That stubborn compensator nut came off with the help of a MAPP gas torch And after inspection, the culprit was clear: a TON of red loctite was used on this thing!

Next was to look at the camshaft situation. It had the stock pushrods, so had to pull the rocker tops and rockers to get the cam out. Low and behold, an Andrews EV-46. A bit too much cam for a stock compression motor if you ask me, will be looking for something a tad tamer. But since I had the rocker boxes off...

Hey, in for a penny, in for a pound. A few more twists of the wrench and bam! Heads and cylinders are sitting on the floor in a box. The pistons and cylinders showed almost no wear, so I'll throw a light hone on the jugs and a new set or rings and call it good. The heads looked to be oozing some oil past the guides, and the exhaust valves were bone white as if running really lean. Will have a basic valve job done, shave .030", and mild port.

So it's in quite a few pieces at the moment, hope to get it mostly back together by Thanksgiving weekend.

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-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline FSG

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #64 on: November 13, 2017, 03:28:23 PM »
Rocker Lockers while the heads are off and cut 50 thou off the Comp Nut

Offline Deye76

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #65 on: November 13, 2017, 05:29:07 PM »
You wasted no time JW.  :up:
East Tenn.
2014 CVO RK, 2015 RGS, 1992 FXRP

Offline Hossamania

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #66 on: November 13, 2017, 05:55:42 PM »
I had the 46 in my '95 Heritage, I liked it because of the top end power, but it is not for everyone. A 27 would work well. You could shave the heads a bit, plenty of clearance, and that would wake up either of those cams.
Good luck, it looks like you're having fun!
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Offline Reddog74usa

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #67 on: November 13, 2017, 06:54:11 PM »
Didn't take you long did it??? Good luck on the refresh  :beer: :up:
RIDE IT LIKE YA STOLE IT

Offline FSG

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #68 on: November 13, 2017, 08:02:09 PM »
Quote
You could shave the heads a bit, plenty of clearance,

in the old days we'd just cut them 50 thou without further checking and re assemble   :teeth:

Offline JW113

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #69 on: November 14, 2017, 11:43:57 AM »
No doubt there dudes, "new" old bike in the shop, no way I can keep the wrenches away from it!
 :SM:

Yeah, was probably over-thinking how much to shave the heads, .030 to .060, with the static C/R supposed to be increased 9:1 or 9.5:1. Considering it a rigid mount, and no plan to make it a hot rod, I wanted to start off more mellow and go from there. So, .030" it is for now. Since I geared it taller (2.92:1), a low/mid cam like EV-27 or Crane 300 would be better suited for that, plus neither need a lot more compression than stock to work well in the 2K-4K range. Don't want a ping-monster on my hands! So I'm doing the "baby steps" route, if this formula doesn't yield what I want, can always go back in and tweak the recipe some more.

The paint on the cyls and heads is pretty toasted and falling off in places. What do you guys use? I hear that HD texture black paint is pretty good, never used it personally.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline rageglide

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #70 on: November 14, 2017, 12:01:28 PM »
Two posts and not a peep about the pulled studs    :smiled:   :pop:

Offline Mark222

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #71 on: November 14, 2017, 12:06:15 PM »
Quote
You could shave the heads a bit, plenty of clearance,

in the old days we'd just cut them 50 thou without further checking and re assemble   :teeth:

I have always heard .050 was the best cut.  Bump Compression but no upset the angle to get a good intake manifold seal.

Mark

Offline JW113

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #72 on: November 14, 2017, 02:44:40 PM »
Two posts and not a peep about the pulled studs    :smiled:   :pop:

Oh.. um, yeah...that's right.  :dgust:

Three pulled cylinder studs. Would have bet a nickel that was gonna happen.  :banghead:

So, what to do? Loctite them back in, get the newer style with flange at bottom and loctite them in, and in both cases, tear it back down and TimeSert the threads after they won't take torque. Or just go ahead TimeSert the threads now. Decisions, decisions....

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline hbkeith

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #73 on: November 14, 2017, 02:55:01 PM »
when I pulled my 97 apart , EV27 , sent heads to WFO for 0.50 cut, bigger valves and port ( as long as heads need some work anyway  :nix:), used Pro pipe . Very happy

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #74 on: November 14, 2017, 05:26:30 PM »
Two posts and not a peep about the pulled studs    :smiled:   :pop:

Oh.. um, yeah...that's right.  :dgust:

Three pulled cylinder studs. Would have bet a nickel that was gonna happen.  :banghead:

So, what to do? Loctite them back in, get the newer style with flange at bottom and loctite them in, and in both cases, tear it back down and TimeSert the threads after they won't take torque. Or just go ahead TimeSert the threads now. Decisions, decisions....

-JW

Go ARP or better.
And like said 0.50 is EZ  to take off.
I think i have 0.80  off mine at last count...But  the combustion chambers cut for Hi dome pistons
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline rageglide

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #75 on: November 16, 2017, 10:45:25 AM »
OEM studs are MORE than adequate.  ARP is a waste of beer money.   JW just get new OEM studs, and timesert the pulled ones.  Leave the other sleeping dogs lie.   Worst case scenario you have one or two that goes soft during install...   

Those studs sure looked nasty seems most likely the engine was running hot or maybe over heated at some point.  Those studs and head bolts were the nastiest I've seen.

So far no Crane 300 in my stash, but I do have a good looking 310.  I still have another place to look...

Offline JW113

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #76 on: November 17, 2017, 10:18:28 PM »
Yo dude, a 310 would be awesome. Yes, will pick up some -99 studs to replace the ones that pulled out. Still waiting on Roger to get the heads done. Hopefully before T-day!

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline JW113

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #77 on: November 22, 2017, 07:48:32 PM »
Bob-O dropped off a couple of Crane cams, a 300 and a 310. Both are great cams for a stock-ish Evo motor. So now the decision: 30 thou or 50 thou on the heads?  Really, a big difference? I want to get the CCR to around 9.5:1. Maybe 180psi ccp? Not looking for a high end power motor, lots of mid range torque. What ya think?

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #78 on: November 23, 2017, 07:15:48 AM »
MAKE sure your heads have not been cut.  (should be stamped)
50 thou off on a stock casting is nothing.
Well, almost nothing.
Truly it depends on a lot of other configurations.
However, if you are just shaving heads and no other mods except a mild Cam it will be no problem.
Its a start!
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Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline jeffscycle

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #79 on: November 24, 2017, 02:10:03 PM »
   With the long legs, the 300 will be the stump puller you want. I'd bite the bullet & go for time serts now, the era of your cases isn't in your favor.
'01 FXDXT, '99 FXDL/XRD, '76 FLH

Offline JW113

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #80 on: November 27, 2017, 10:05:02 PM »
So the shop is going to mill the heads .050, and I've decided on a Crane FB310 that Bob gave me. Should be quite fine, tall gearing and all. Heck, they came stock with that gearing for a while.

You are probably right, should timesert the case now, but oh hell, I'm lazy. I red loctited the loose studs back in, and then stacked up some sockets & spacers and torque tested two of them to 45 ft/lbs. They held OK. Famous last words, yes I know, said it before and lived to regret it. On the bright side, I'll get to tear it all apart in a few hundred miles and timesert the studs! And if/when it comes to that, will do all eight of the bastards.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline JW113

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #81 on: November 30, 2017, 07:06:21 PM »
Picked up the heads/cyls on Tuesday. I had picked up a can of the Harley-Davidson textured engine paint to freshen them up. Only issue is that it's been kinda cold here, no higher than low/mid 60s during the day. Instructions on can say apply and cure at room temp, which I am assuming to be 72F. Well that ain't gonna happen, but it also said you can force dry it at 180F. So this afternoon, it was 67F, so I went ahead and shot the paint on, and fired up the barby to 180F. They're out there right now a-baking away. What they did not say on can was how long you have to bake.

An hour? A day? Anybody? Anybody?

I figure how can you over-bake, they're gonna get a hell of a lot hotter than that during operation. Will give it a few hours and call it good.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline rageglide

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #82 on: November 30, 2017, 07:40:53 PM »
As long as they don't catch on fire from the out gassing in that open flame env... 2 hours @180 should be adequate.

Glad to hear you got the parts back.   :up:

Offline JW113

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #83 on: November 30, 2017, 08:17:49 PM »
[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

Ding ding ding ding! The BBQ hogheads are done!

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline rageglide

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #84 on: November 30, 2017, 08:36:47 PM »
If it was warmer I'd say paint the bottom end too.   But that mass would need a lot of time to get up into the 60's ...  Maybe pull it and take the cases and primary into the house , set em on the kitchen counter near the oven.  Should be ready to paint by Saturday.    :hyst:  -V would love it.


Offline JW113

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #85 on: December 04, 2017, 09:02:49 AM »
Well it's all back together and I got to hear it run for a few seconds. Was smokin like a rastafarian from the assembly oil, and it was in the garage so I didn't let it run very long, just wanted to hear it fire up.

I spent a few hours chasing down an electrical gremlin in the starter circuit. I had it all ready to do, poured in a gallon of gas, and hit the starter button. All it did was a loud "CLACK", then nothing. I probed on the green wire on the starter, no signal. Hmm. OK, so working from the "what did you touch last" school of thought, I began to question if I screwed up when I wired in a set of 2000's controls to the stock '92 handlebar wires.

There is a black/red wire that comes from the starter button to the starter relay, through one connector between the tanks. So I figured I'd make sure the signal was getting from button to relay. I looked behind the oil tank at the fender flap where the relay should be mounted, and what the heck. There's the relay, with no connector on it! I didn't see the connector hanging back in there though. I followed the harness, and lo and behold, it lead up to a little plastic box next to the ignition module. I took the cover off, and there is a relay. It seems that sometime in the past, HD must done a starter relocation kit, with a wiring extension. It was plugged into the stock harness, and routed up under the seat.

I unplugged the relay and probed on the black/red wire from the button, nothing. Well crap, gonna have to pull the tanks I see, so I did. I checked the harness from handlebar controls, A-OK. I followed the signal from the frame connector to the starter relay, zero. Hmm. I unplugged the relay extension, signal was OK from frame connector to there. WTF? I checked the extension harness, and something is funny here. After looking back and forth at the wiring diagram, the harness, and finally the relay itself, I figured out that this new relay is not wired like what was supposed to be the stock relay. The start button signal (black/red) and the relay ground (black) are reversed on this relay! WTF?? OK, what ever, so now check the signal from the starter button, A-OK. I plug the extension back into the harness and put the relay back, turn the ignition on and hit the button. Rrr-Rrr-Rrr-Rrr.... Starter is cranking fine now! WTF????

By now it is late afternoon and I need to get the christmas light up, so spent a couple hours with that. Then got back to the bike, put the tanks on, hit the starter and it roars to life, filling the garage up with smoke. By now it was dark, so I'm done for the day.

So. All I can figure is that either I didn't get the controls harness connector pushed on correctly at the frame, OR that relay extension harness connector was not making good contact. One common theme on this bike is the amount of corrosion on the thing. It was a coastal bike, and from the looks of it, somebody in the past must have been storing it outside or under a car port, exposed to that wicked salt fog they get along the coast. The terminals in the main harness where the relay extension plugged in looks pretty nasty. So maybe unplugging, replugging clear the contacts?

I can tell you this, I HATE electrical gremlins! This era HD used those open AMP connectors, prone to weathering. And I found that with especially softails and sporties, with rigid mount motor, the connector pins seem to "loosen up" with age and don't bite very well due to the vibration. I'm thinking I'm gonna have a new wiring harness in my future....

Anyway, I got to hear it run. Will try to play hooky for a few hours this week and break in the new rings.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline Deye76

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #86 on: December 04, 2017, 04:29:00 PM »
Textured paint came out great JW. Glad you got it assembled. I hate wiring/electrics also.
East Tenn.
2014 CVO RK, 2015 RGS, 1992 FXRP

Offline JW113

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #87 on: December 05, 2017, 08:27:52 AM »
Yeah the paint looks nice, can't tell the diff between what I did on the heads & jugs compared to the rest of the parts. I'll snap a pic. Have to say that HD paint is good stuff, although 5x as much as the off the shelf stuff. Hard as a rock.

Well my little ring break in session went kind of odd. I rolled it out the street and fired it up, and holy smokes (pun intended) it's been quite a while since I seen so much smoke pour out of a motor like this. I thought it would dry up fairly quickly, but was not happening. Even a couple neighbors came out to see what the hell was going on!

I started to have some doubts, but in for a penny, in for a pound. I dropped it into 1st and headed down the street. At least there won't be too many mosquitoes in this neighborhood for a while. After a few blocks and some moderate throttle pulls through 1st to 3rd, it started to dry up a bit. By the time I got back home (maybe 2 miles), it had pretty much cleared up. I had been hearing a somewhat odd noise when letting up the throttle and coasting down, kinda like a transmission whine (sort of), so I didn't stay out long and headed back to the garage to check things out. I think it was maybe the new belt? I looked at the outlets of the exhaust pipes, both dripping wet with oil. Sheesh.

So this smoking business. I had given the cylinders a light coat of oil, and also the rings. That's about it. I put in a used Crane FB310 that Bob gave me, and a new set of tappets, and dumped about 1/4 (maybe 1/2?) quart of oil in the cam chest for some splash at start up. Maybe too much oil in the crankcase, with un-seated rings?

After I give it a once over check, will take it out again over to the freeway and give it sequence of full throttle pulls to really seat the rings, then see how the oil situation is doing.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline jeffscycle

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #88 on: December 05, 2017, 11:10:34 AM »
   With your extra oil, and what was in the crank already, may have just over loaded the rings. if it was an older case style PCV, it'd puke out, but newer style keeps it all in. It might be over full on the tank now, and or check to see if rocker breathers are doing their job.
'01 FXDXT, '99 FXDL/XRD, '76 FLH

Offline JW113

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #89 on: December 05, 2017, 01:46:30 PM »
It's a '92, so last year crankcase breather. Oddly, the heads and rocker boxes are cast for the head breather stuff, just not implemented. Looks like they were getting ready for the '93 change.

And also oddly, no oil puke out the breather hose.

 :scratch:

I had only put 2 qts of oil in the tank for just such case as this, knowing there was some oil in the motor. Also, I usually drain the oil and change filter 50-ish miles after an overhaul just to clear the early wear material out of it.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline jeffscycle

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #90 on: December 06, 2017, 11:47:30 AM »
   Did you hone & use new rings?
'01 FXDXT, '99 FXDL/XRD, '76 FLH

Offline JC 92FXRS

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #91 on: December 06, 2017, 12:55:10 PM »
It's a '92, so last year crankcase breather. Oddly, the heads and rocker boxes are cast for the head breather stuff, just not implemented. Looks like they were getting ready for the '93 change.

And also oddly, no oil puke out the breather hose.

 :scratch:

I had only put 2 qts of oil in the tank for just such case as this, knowing there was some oil in the motor. Also, I usually drain the oil and change filter 50-ish miles after an overhaul just to clear the early wear material out of it.

-JW

Yup, same as mine...case breather with '93 heads (head-breathers not plumbed in). Mine only throws oil (~250ml) if it's sat all winter. It will also throw a little if it's trailed or in the back of a truck for a significant distance (I assume it's the bouncing with the engine not running that drives oil past the check-ball).
Jeff
"never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence"

Offline tdrglide

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #92 on: December 06, 2017, 01:54:24 PM »
My 92 fxr is also set up that way (case breather with head breather heads and rocker boxes not setup) my understanding is all 92 evo's were made that way. The last guy into the rocker boxes before I got it went so far as to install the umbrella valves.  :nix:

Offline JW113

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #93 on: December 06, 2017, 06:12:00 PM »
Yes, honed the cylinders and new Hastings rings. The pistons looked great, very tight fit in the boars. (only 36K on motor)

One thing odd about this set of rings. Usually they have some nice instructions how to install the rings, like pictures of the 'dot' for the top side, or which way to put the bevels. This set, nothing. Zero, zip. The top ring was moly, and not marked. The second ring had a bevel, so I had to make a educated guess and put it on the top. Hope that was correct. Maybe need to call Hastings and ask? Nothing on their website, I used some instructions from a set of S&S rings to decide on the bevel direction.

Also, no info at all on ring gap. The FM also had nothing about ring gap other than 'not to exceed .030', no minimum. I measured these all around .015", which seemed fine.

One more little problem to address though. The pushrod tubes are leaking oil pretty bad, I think I know why. When I put the keepers in, it was all I could do go get them to snap into place. They are tighter than hell. I was thinking at the time probably not a good idea, but really wanted to just button it up to fire it up. These heads were milled .050", so I guess it stands to reason the pushrod keepers need to get cut down that much too. Oops...

Anybody else had this kind of oil spew problem? I've not popped it loose yet to see if it cut or ruined the O-rings, but guessing it did.

 :doh:

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #94 on: December 06, 2017, 07:23:49 PM »
Personally, i would throw Aunt Tillies street rings in the trash and get
a 12 lb pack.
Why waste power dragging 30 lbs?
I go through a 1/2 QT oil  in 2000 miles at 10 pounds.
That is a pretty good trade!
The power is not going out the pipe in heat and restriction.

http://www.totalseal.com/pdf/GAPCHART.pdf

https://www.hastingspistonrings.com/tech-tips-faqs/checking-compression-ring-gaps
https://www.hastingspistonrings.com/tech-tips-faqs/checking-compression-ring-gaps

D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline jeffscycle

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #95 on: December 07, 2017, 10:08:36 AM »
    I just looked at a set of Hastings std. V2 rings I stock when I do base gaskets on them regularly. The bevel on the second ring  goes DOWN, Mine do have a dot for top side also. Yes. the new packaging is rather generic with just pics, I'm assuming for international sales.
   
   Total seals are good, but should be used with a fresh hole (& seasoned cyl.), and the power difference is neglectable. I've been using Hastings for years for a fix for oil burners with stock cylinders. Stok Evo's cylinder are flexy flyers, and are rarely round. From what I've observed, sometimes the stock rings just don't seal, and kind of clean up the high spots. So once a new set is introduced on a honed cylinder, they seal up better than originals.
'01 FXDXT, '99 FXDL/XRD, '76 FLH

Offline rageglide

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #96 on: December 07, 2017, 10:30:13 AM »
John I've run milled heads on all my bikes and never an issue with the pushrod tubes leaking.  Sounds like a pinched top o ring. 

My first thought on the oil issue was that it sounds like you have rings in upside down.  (like jeffscycle is saying). 

I tried totalseal once... never again. 

Offline JW113

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #97 on: December 07, 2017, 05:51:07 PM »
This is all I had to go on, taken from an S&S piston ring installation guide:
[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

So I had case 7, figure one. No dot, inside bevel. I put it to the top of the piston. Guess I need to give Hastings a call and ask WTF.

So Bob, you're probably right, something up with the O-rings. But on all four?? And I'm telling ya, it came down to 99.9% not compressing enough to get the keepers in there. So those tubes are *real* tight. One last caveat, these are not stock HD pushrod tubes. The ones that came with the bike were rusty as hell. These are from Biker Direct (i.e. Taiwan Direct).

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline rageglide

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #98 on: December 07, 2017, 07:08:50 PM »
Close enough is Good enough...  or not.  Never had any issue at all with pushrod tub fit after milling heads. If they are too tight it sounds like a bad fit.  Maybe the inners are large enough they are making contact with the bore in the head which would be solid and not compress the o-rings.  Try the OEM inners.



Offline JW113

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #99 on: December 19, 2017, 08:31:23 AM »
Back home from Detroit, and had some time to look into the oil leaks and oil consumption. Got to see a dandy of a lakes area snowstorm last week!

Push rod tubes: Yep, the taiwanese crap repops I bought were longer than stock. Add to that the 50 thou off the heads and you got tubes that are longer than there is space for them. I cleaned the stock ones up best I could, they look OK but just don't look too close at the pits.

Oil out the exhaust: turned out to be another "learning experience". I talked to my local shop guy about it yesterday, he said for sure the second oil rings had to be upside down. Also said this is real easy to do with Hastings rings. He grabbed a box and opened them, and showed me how they now have some sore of "coating" on them, making it impossible to see the top side "dot". He rubbed one with a rag for a bit, and sure enough, there it was. The dot. On the opposite side of the bevel. The bevel that I had put on the top side cause that's what the internet told me to do.
 :SM:

(Yo Hastings, it really wouldn't hurt to put some instructions on the ring package like you used to do...)

So last night after work I tore it all down, and yep, sure enough second rings are bevel side down. I flipped 'em over and put it back together up to the rocker boxes. Will get the carb, exhaust and tanks back on tonight and see what happens.

Oh and some nice pictures of what upside down rings look like:

[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

Kind of amazing how much oil was being pushed out the intake valve. Of course the exhaust side is a giant black gooey mess clear to the end of the pipes.

[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

Yo Jethro, tell Granny to load up the truck. We've struck it rich!

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline Flhfxd

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #100 on: December 19, 2017, 01:47:35 PM »
 :pop:
Been watching. Nice bike JW.
Bad on Hastings for leaving folks to guess. Speaking of guessing, I guess I got lucky on my rebuild  :nix:  All is good so far, I'da been pissed to have to haul that apart again for someone elses short comings.
"And the road goes on forever...... But I got one more silver dollar.....'

Offline FSG

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #101 on: December 19, 2017, 02:45:38 PM »
JW was there no instructions at all with your rings?

check the top line

https://www.hastingsmfg.com/ServiceTips/compression_ring_installation.htm

Offline JW113

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #102 on: December 19, 2017, 04:41:10 PM »
Hey Gary,

No instructions AT ALL. Just three pouches in the folded paper pack, indicating Top, Second, and Oil rings.

Regarding the info on that Hastings link, look at the second line:

"Rings with a bevel on the inside diameter but no "pip" mark or dot must be installed with the bevel towards the top of the piston."


That is what threw me. The S&S sheet I have said the same thing. With that coating on the rings, I could not see any pip mark. So bevel side down. Which, turns out, is incorrect.
 :kick:

Here is what Hastings used to supply with their ring sets:
[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

A little hard to see clearly, but enough to see it has some detailed instructions how to install and check fit. Now, nothing! And you can't see the pips til ya wipe the crap off them. And oh jeez, they don't mention anywhere to do that either!!

I do owe Hastings a phone call at some point to lodge my grievances.
 :slap:

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline rageglide

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #103 on: December 19, 2017, 07:22:41 PM »
That's a crazy amount of oil sitting in that cylinder, and that's after at least 24hrs of sitting.  But dang that rear cylinder was pumping out a crazy amount of smoke.   Can't believe it kept running, been a long time (if ever) since I've seen that much oil smoke...

Fingers crossed the flip gets it done.

Offline FSG

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #104 on: December 19, 2017, 08:00:18 PM »
Quote
I do owe Hastings a phone call at some point to lodge my grievances.

 :up:  I'd sure be getting up them

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #105 on: December 19, 2017, 08:01:45 PM »
Personally, i would have done two things.
Get a new ring pack as this one is been treated dubiously.
Plus it has been run upside dwn.
I have no idea what that will do when that much fire and oil is leaked past them.
Rings are supposed to be gas operated one way or another.
They expand when the explosion goes off in the cannon.
These ring(s) were not installed correctly so lots and lots of fire and oil rushed  past
creating a fire that hell would not have
It has had some abuse from those somersaults.
Like i said B4 get a low drag pack about the 9 to 14 lb variety.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline JW113

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #106 on: December 19, 2017, 08:33:45 PM »
Going to trust my machine shop dude on this, who evidently BTDT before. He said if I only put 10 miles on it like that, just flip 'em over and go. What the hell, worse comes to worst I tear it down again. And put it back with Axell 97" cylinders.
 :SM:

Also, the 2nd compression ring doesn't see the high pressure from combustion chamber. Was reading that the 2nd ring is really more about keeping oil out of the combustion chamber. And as I know all too well now, if not installed correctly, IT DON'T!!

Too late tonight to fire it up, but is ready to go for tomorrow. Maybe a good day to play hooky? Er, uh, no, I meant "work from home"...

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline FSG

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #107 on: December 19, 2017, 09:40:22 PM »
 :up:    :chop:

Offline wfolarry

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #108 on: December 20, 2017, 03:04:35 AM »
The 2nd ring is tapered. Rides over the oil on the way up & scrapes it off on the way down. Upside down it's just pushing the oil up into the cylinder. Flip them over & ride it. You won't have any problems.

Offline Burnout

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #109 on: December 20, 2017, 01:27:52 PM »
The 2nd ring is tapered. Rides over the oil on the way up & scrapes it off on the way down. Upside down it's just pushing the oil up into the cylinder. Flip them over & ride it. You won't have any problems.

So are you saying bevel down or up on an unmarked ring?    :scratch:
They don't call me Ironhead Rick just because I'm "hard headed"

Offline JW113

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #110 on: December 20, 2017, 03:49:08 PM »
Well Sha-zayam!

Although it's been a little bit of a painful lesson, at least I can say, without doubt, what that second ring is for!

So all I did was tear it apart, flip the second rings, put back together.

Before: smoking like a, well, nothing I can think of. pretty freaking bad. like a 2-stroke that somebody reversed the gas & oil mix ratio?

After: nary a puff. clean as clean can be.

I took a quick 30 mile ride up the freeway and back, seems to running great. Next step is to do a little tuning on the jetting and timing, but as is seems pretty close for just throwing it together.

Jeff, Larry, Bob, all'a youse guys were spot on.

Also, putting the stock pushrod tubes back in cured the major oil leak. Yay!

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline wfolarry

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #111 on: December 20, 2017, 04:34:36 PM »
The 2nd ring is tapered. Rides over the oil on the way up & scrapes it off on the way down. Upside down it's just pushing the oil up into the cylinder. Flip them over & ride it. You won't have any problems.

So are you saying bevel down or up on an unmarked ring?    :scratch:

The bevel instructions are for the top ring.

Offline JW113

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #112 on: December 20, 2017, 04:54:50 PM »
Aaaaaaand here's the final product. Well, as "final" as any HD ever is at any point in time.

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Quite a bit parred down from when it showed up six weeks ago, compared to the pix at the top of this thread.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline rageglide

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Re: Back in the EVO game!
« Reply #113 on: December 20, 2017, 04:58:17 PM »

The bevel instructions are for the top ring.

Curious why they have the bevel in this case.  I always figured it allowed the ring to rock in one direction and not the other.


Glad to hear you're back on track John.  Heard you go by earlier.  So much for knocking the mosquitos down in the 'hood...