Author Topic: Starter  (Read 704 times)

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Offline Deye76

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Starter
« on: January 15, 2018, 06:03:56 AM »
In the process of installing a 113" 10.0:1 motor in my FXR. Will the OE starter handle it? Has manual compression releases.
East Tenn.
2014 CVO RK, 2015 RGS, 1992 FXRP

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Starter
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2018, 06:06:46 AM »
If the starter is sound, I would say yes you're fine. I used a factory starter on the 117" motor, (it did have ACR's) the entire time it was in the bike. Always cranked over really well.
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Offline Deye76

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Re: Starter
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2018, 03:34:11 PM »
On my TC the OE starter handled a 113" @ 10.8:1 well. Wondering if the TC starters are more powerful than a 80" Evo starter.
East Tenn.
2014 CVO RK, 2015 RGS, 1992 FXRP

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Starter
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2018, 04:56:07 PM »
If my memory serves, they're 1.2kw, the TC is 1.3kw. If it's a fresh strong starter, it should turn it I would think with compression releases. The key to it is the corrected compression. If that's not too high, it should crank.
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Offline JW113

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Re: Starter
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2018, 06:31:41 PM »
I also have a 113", around 10.5:1, manual comp releases, and some hefty cams. CCP is like 160, not astronomical. Most would call it low. Mine also came stock with a 1.2KW starter.

I have fought starting problems forever with it. With no compression release, it will not turn over on the first press of starter button. Spin..stall..let up on button and hit it again. Half the time it kicks back. I bought an All Balls 1.4KW starter, it did not seem to help much. If my battery gets the least bit low or old, fahgetabout.

For what ever reason, cams I think, if I press both comp releases, it will not start at all. Just spins and goes Psst Psst Pssst Psst Psst Psst. So my routine now is to use only one comp release. If I catch the first spin up on that cylinder so that it doesn't stall, it will start up. If the other on the compression stroke, it stalls or kicks back.

I would love to try one of those 1.8 or 2.0 KW starters, but they will not clear the exhaust pipes I have.

Not much help, am I?

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline crock

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Re: Starter
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2018, 04:42:46 AM »
I would think it would also depend on cam choice
Crock

Offline Deye76

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Re: Starter
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2018, 05:44:45 AM »
JW, what cams & ignition, if you don't mind? 160psi, seems like it should be easy starting. Budget is tight so guess I'll roll the dice with OE, see what happens.
East Tenn.
2014 CVO RK, 2015 RGS, 1992 FXRP

Offline nibroc

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Re: Starter
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2018, 08:51:22 AM »
surely ya know ya need heaver guage wire with the bigger starters!!!!!!!!!!!---maybe dbl. ground

Offline Thermodyne

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Re: Starter
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2018, 09:31:31 AM »
What year is the scooter?  The early generation starter is marginal on an 80 inch stock motor.  The later starters are good, but most 25 year old starters are less than at their prime.

And then there is the motor to consider.  With a lot of duration/overlap in the cam and compression releases, it wont be that hard to spin over.  Except....After it sits long enough for the valve springs to push the tappet plunger down.  That first couple of cranks can be a little hard.  The compression releases should get you past that.   

If you have the late style primary you can improve the ring gear - pinion ratio, just don't go all the way to the 100+ tooth ring gear.  And the 94 and 00 primary ratios (higher) makes it easier for the starter to spin the motor over.   

Offline turboprop

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Re: Starter
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2018, 09:58:15 AM »
What year is the scooter?  The early generation starter is marginal on an 80 inch stock motor.  The later starters are good, but most 25 year old starters are less than at their prime.

And then there is the motor to consider.  With a lot of duration/overlap in the cam and compression releases, it wont be that hard to spin over.  Except....After it sits long enough for the valve springs to push the tappet plunger down.  That first couple of cranks can be a little hard.  The compression releases should get you past that.   

If you have the late style primary you can improve the ring gear - pinion ratio, just don't go all the way to the 100+ tooth ring gear.  And the 94 and 00 primary ratios (higher) makes it easier for the starter to spin the motor over.   

^^^ This.

John, I have a 1.7kw Terry that you are welcome to borrow.
'Never try to teach a pig to sing, it only wastes your time and annoys the pig'.

Offline Deye76

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Re: Starter
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2018, 04:35:23 PM »
Many thanks Turboprop. I'll give the OE a go first.
Bike is a 1992, overlap on the cam is 44, 264 duration, will be installing new Terry cables also. Fingers crossed.
East Tenn.
2014 CVO RK, 2015 RGS, 1992 FXRP

Offline JW113

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Re: Starter
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2018, 06:39:43 PM »
JW, what cams & ignition, if you don't mind? 160psi, seems like it should be easy starting. Budget is tight so guess I'll roll the dice with OE, see what happens.

SE 264 cams (it's a twin cam, doh!) and stock ign module flashed with SE Race Tuner. And Terry Components heavy duty cables....

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline crock

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Re: Starter
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2018, 04:40:02 AM »
Cables do make a BIG difference
Crock

Offline BKACHE

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Re: Starter
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2018, 05:53:47 AM »
I had a Ultima 113" that I put into a '96 FXD while the stock engine was being rebuilt. I did the same thing with my shovel '82 FXRS. The stock 1996 starter would struggle mightily whenever I forgot to push the buttons on the manual compression releases. Once pushed, the starter never complained. Oddly when I put it into the '82 the old Prestolite would push it over better than the 1996 starter whenever I forgot. I tried not to forget, once pushed the 113" started easier than the stock 80" or 93" shovel.   

Offline Deye76

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Re: Starter
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2018, 07:24:57 AM »
BKACHE, info I was hoping for. Using releases is habit with me, so maybe I'll get lucky. Thanks.

Can't freakin' believe how much starters are.  :angry:
East Tenn.
2014 CVO RK, 2015 RGS, 1992 FXRP

Offline turboprop

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Re: Starter
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2018, 07:33:22 AM »
BKACHE, info I was hoping for. Using releases is habit with me, so maybe I'll get lucky. Thanks.

Can't freakin' believe how much starters are.  :angry:

Not sure if you say them last year at MV, but the evo engine that was in my red bike had a automatic comp release set up. That engine had 12:1 compression and had used manual compression releases for years. About two years ago, I ran across an add on eBay for adapters that would go inlace of the 10mm thread manuals and allow standard eom Harley electronic releases to be used. Love them! They worked flawlessly. I wired them into the starter circuit and never had an issue. If you are interested I can point you in the right direction. I think the adapters were like $75 a set plus the releases from Harley. Love them.
'Never try to teach a pig to sing, it only wastes your time and annoys the pig'.

Offline Billy

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Re: Starter
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2018, 08:30:58 AM »
BKACHE, info I was hoping for. Using releases is habit with me, so maybe I'll get lucky. Thanks.

Can't freakin' believe how much starters are.  :angry:

Quality starters for a reasonable price.

https://terrycomp.com/
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Offline Deye76

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Re: Starter
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2018, 04:16:31 PM »
Turboprop, I do remember them, slick. :up: At 2 full points less compression than you and a smaller motor I'm hoping the manual will be sufficient.

Billy, the Terry starters I have priced for a FXR are between $360 & $4oo dollars. I can get a stater that would spin a 426 Max Wedge for less than a hundred bucks. Grr.
East Tenn.
2014 CVO RK, 2015 RGS, 1992 FXRP

Offline turboprop

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Re: Starter
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2018, 06:37:03 PM »
Turboprop, I do remember them, slick. :up: At 2 full points less compression than you and a smaller motor I'm hoping the manual will be sufficient.

Billy, the Terry starters I have priced for a FXR are between $360 & $4oo dollars. I can get a stater that would spin a 426 Max Wedge for less than a hundred bucks. Grr.

The manuals worked fine on this engine, but it was just another step in the starting process. The electrics just eliminated having to press them both in and sometimes having to hold the rear one down.

Dan Baisley modifies the chainsaw releases that everyone sells for use with harleys. The Baisley modified releases will not close until the engine fires. Highly recommended. if you have to buy releases, these are the ones to get.
'Never try to teach a pig to sing, it only wastes your time and annoys the pig'.

Offline JW113

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Re: Starter
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2018, 07:48:29 PM »
Mine don't close until the engine fires, and they are not Dan Baisley's. Which ones are you referring to?

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline turboprop

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Re: Starter
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2018, 08:01:19 PM »
Mine don't close until the engine fires, and they are not Dan Baisley's. Which ones are you referring to?

-JW

The ones on Dan Baisley's website.
'Never try to teach a pig to sing, it only wastes your time and annoys the pig'.

Offline JW113

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Re: Starter
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2018, 06:37:10 AM »
Sorry, I guess the question was worded improperly.

Which compression releases are sold for HDs close before the engine fires? I've not heard of that.

I got the ones that HD sells. Are you saying those are actually modified chainsaw releases from Baisley?

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline Deye76

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Re: Starter
« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2018, 04:12:55 PM »
For those needing manual releases, I've had good service with the ones Goodson (https://goodson.com/) carries, about $62.00.
East Tenn.
2014 CVO RK, 2015 RGS, 1992 FXRP

Offline turboprop

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Re: Starter
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2018, 05:53:36 PM »
Sorry, I guess the question was worded improperly.

Which compression releases are sold for HDs close before the engine fires? I've not heard of that.

I got the ones that HD sells. Are you saying those are actually modified chainsaw releases from Baisley?

-JW

No, thats not what I am saying. The ones that harley sells are chainsaw releases and NOT modified by Baisley.

The ones sold for harley applications, regardless of who has repackaged them, started off as chainsaw releases. They will work fine in most applications. They have a hard time with high compression, large displacement engines as they want to close early. Not uncommon for riders with large, HC engines to hold down the rear compression release while cranking the engine. Milder and smaller engines do not require this.

Dan Baisley modifies the common chainsaw release that various companies sell (to include harley) so that it doesn't close as easily. I think there is some porting and a different detent spring involved.

PS - I thought I replied to this earlier, but cannot find the post. Very odd.
'Never try to teach a pig to sing, it only wastes your time and annoys the pig'.

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Starter
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2018, 05:55:22 PM »
The server update caused a few dropped posts.
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Offline barrybasinger

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Re: Starter
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2018, 09:45:37 AM »
surely ya know ya need heaver guage wire with the bigger starters!!!!!!!!!!!---maybe dbl. ground

x2!  I fought starter problems on a 12:1 bike until I finally broke down and put on one of those sets of heavy-guage, flexible cables. Made all the difference in the world.