Author Topic: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing  (Read 1996 times)

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Offline Jamie Long

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Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« on: January 18, 2018, 04:16:16 PM »
For those interested we are going to be doing back to back testing with an assortment of bolt in cams on a 107" Milwaukee Eight motor. The testing will be done on a stock 107 M8 air cooled bike equipped with what we are considering average, good performing, readily available components. We will be using Screamin Eagle Stage 1 air cleaner with stock cover, S&S MK45 mufflers, Jackpot M8 2/1/2 head pipe, and each combination will get a comprehensive dyno tune with Dynojet Power Vision. Each evaluation will be done in the same gear at the same engine temp. We are going to try to do this over 2 days, we are scheduling this for the last week of January. 

The cams we are testing are as follows:

Cycle-Rama 460
Redshift 468
Wood WM8-22X
S&S 475C
Andrews M460



Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2018, 04:18:10 PM »
That should be interesting. I look forward to see the differences.   
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Offline Nastytls

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2018, 04:27:33 PM »
Very cool that you are doing this. Out of curiosity, is there a reason you have chosen the S&S MK45 mufflers? Do you consider them to be the best mufflers for the M8?

Offline BigT

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2018, 06:53:06 PM »
Very cool that you are doing this. Out of curiosity, is there a reason you have chosen the S&S MK45 mufflers? Do you consider them to be the best mufflers for the M8?

“we are considering average, good performing, readily available components”

Offline lucasg

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2018, 07:06:19 PM »
That's great news Jamie  :up:  Really looking forward to the results.  Never heard those S&S mufflers in person, but they sure do sound nice on video clips... Keep up the good work...

Offline JMHD

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2018, 08:32:42 PM »
Thanks in advance for sharing these tests, looking forward to the results as well.

Offline NCTURBOS

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2018, 01:23:00 PM »
Definitely looking forward to the results, as the next upgrade to my '17 RGS is a cam choice...

K.
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Offline Hossamania

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2018, 07:55:00 PM »
You guys have your work cut out for you. Good luck, looking forward to the results.
And as mentioned, thank you for the effort and sharing the results.
My boss always says mean things to me,
like, "You're late."

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2018, 08:01:34 PM »
This should be a good test and yield some usable data. 5 cam changes and 5 complete tunes in two days is a very aggressive schedule, so get some rest before you start. Looking forward to you posting the results. 

Offline yobtaf103

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2018, 12:47:41 AM »
Looking forward to the findings, awesome effort.

Offline sfmichael

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2018, 11:13:54 AM »
thank you Jamie / Fuel Moto  :up: :up:
Colorado Springs, CO.

Offline Jamie Long

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2018, 08:23:12 AM »
We are starting our Milwaukee Eight 107 cam test and I wanted to provide some specific info on how the test will be conducted. Test bike is a 2017 Road Glide 107 with 3460 miles, the engine is completely stock with the exception of the 5 different bolt in cam's we are testing. The bike will be equipped with a Screamin Eagle Stage 1 air cleaner, Jackpot M8 2/1/2 head pipe, S&S MK45 slip on mufflers, and each cam will be fully tuned with Dynojet Power Vision. Bike will be tested in our dyno cell which has optimum makeup air, exhaust extraction, it is monitored for CO, and the temp will be controlled @ (+/- 5) 72 degrees. We will use our standardized procedure; 6th gear runs 1:1 ratio, bike strapped down on the dyno from each side, cooling fans on each side of the bike at a 45 degree angle 24" from the engine, all runs will be done within a specific engine temperature range and logged/monitored from the bikes CANbus, all runs will be displayed/posted in SAE format with correction multiplier & specific conditions clearly shown. Dyno runs posted will be the average of each cam combination, not the highest or lowest chart of each test. We will be testing in no particular order. We are going to check cam lift & event timing in the engine with a fixture & degree wheel (we will not be posting this info publicly). Due to the amount of work required to install, document, and fully tune each cam and the data that needs to be sorted we are going to post final results once the test is fully completed. We will however be posting relative information thru out the week as we go, full results for each cam will be posted on our website and social media channels Monday February 5th. Thank you for following along.

Offline Hossamania

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2018, 08:30:33 AM »
A big thumbs up, and good luck!
My boss always says mean things to me,
like, "You're late."

Offline Hossamania

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2018, 08:33:17 AM »
Just an observation, have you thought about doing a run without the air cleaner to see if it is restricting flow?
My boss always says mean things to me,
like, "You're late."

Offline Jamie Long

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2018, 08:49:20 AM »
Just an observation, have you thought about doing a run without the air cleaner to see if it is restricting flow?

We have very specific objectives for this test, we cannot add variables such as different air cleaners, mufflers, etc.. as it dilutes the premise of the test itself which is; how each cam performs with the exact same set of components. I do however know what you are saying.

As far as air cleaners we have tested many of them on the market for the M8, that is an entirely topic in an of itself. We posted some really interesting air cleaner test info early on in a different social media site and some members of our "fan club" only wanted to hear/believe what they wanted to, twisted the testing around, and for the next year posted statement like we were running bikes with air cleaners removed, the VSS unplugged, and other bs. This is the reason we keep most of our testing and info to ourselves.

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2018, 09:05:07 AM »
That sounds like as consistent of a test as you could ask for. I wouldn't expect to see huge differences in the cams, but then again, consistent tests tell the truth.
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Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2018, 11:56:35 AM »
Just an observation, have you thought about doing a run without the air cleaner to see if it is restricting flow?

We have very specific objectives for this test, we cannot add variables such as different air cleaners, mufflers, etc.. as it dilutes the premise of the test itself which is; how each cam performs with the exact same set of components. I do however know what you are saying.

As far as air cleaners we have tested many of them on the market for the M8, that is an entirely topic in an of itself. We posted some really interesting air cleaner test info early on in a different social media site and some members of our "fan club" only wanted to hear/believe what they wanted to, twisted the testing around, and for the next year posted statement like we were running bikes with air cleaners removed, the VSS unplugged, and other bs. This is the reason we keep most of our testing and info to ourselves.

Is it based on the other air cleaner tests you refer to above are you using the SE stage 1 because you are confident it will not cause any restriction that would contaminate the cam test results.


We are starting our Milwaukee Eight 107 cam test and I wanted to provide some specific info on how the test will be conducted. Test bike is a 2017 Road Glide 107 with 3460 miles, the engine is completely stock with the exception of the 5 different bolt in cam's we are testing. The bike will be equipped with a Screamin Eagle Stage 1 air cleaner, Jackpot M8 2/1/2 head pipe, S&S MK45 slip on mufflers, and each cam will be fully tuned with Dynojet Power Vision. Bike will be tested in our dyno cell which has optimum makeup air, exhaust extraction, it is monitored for CO, and the temp will be controlled @ (+/- 5) 72 degrees. We will use our standardized procedure; 6th gear runs 1:1 ratio, bike strapped down on the dyno from each side, cooling fans on each side of the bike at a 45 degree angle 24" from the engine, all runs will be done within a specific engine temperature range and logged/monitored from the bikes CANbus, all runs will be displayed/posted in SAE format with correction multiplier & specific conditions clearly shown. Dyno runs posted will be the average of each cam combination, not the highest or lowest chart of each test. We will be testing in no particular order. We are going to check cam lift & event timing in the engine with a fixture & degree wheel (we will not be posting this info publicly). Due to the amount of work required to install, document, and fully tune each cam and the data that needs to be sorted we are going to post final results once the test is fully completed. We will however be posting relative information thru out the week as we go, full results for each cam will be posted on our website and social media channels Monday February 5th. Thank you for following along.

On nice addition would be to include CCP tests for each cam. I know this is standard procedure when making back to back dyno tests but it was not mentioned so I thought i would ask if we could see them posted as well.
Thanks for sharing here at HTT.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2018, 12:16:28 PM by 1FSTRK »

Offline Nastytls

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2018, 11:45:06 AM »
Just an observation, have you thought about doing a run without the air cleaner to see if it is restricting flow?

We have very specific objectives for this test, we cannot add variables such as different air cleaners, mufflers, etc.. as it dilutes the premise of the test itself which is; how each cam performs with the exact same set of components. I do however know what you are saying.

As far as air cleaners we have tested many of them on the market for the M8, that is an entirely topic in an of itself. We posted some really interesting air cleaner test info early on in a different social media site and some members of our "fan club" only wanted to hear/believe what they wanted to, twisted the testing around, and for the next year posted statement like we were running bikes with air cleaners removed, the VSS unplugged, and other bs. This is the reason we keep most of our testing and info to ourselves.

Haters gonna hate. I don’t see anyone else performing this type of testing on their dime, or otherwise. I think most people can see through the garbage associated with jealousy of Fuel Moto’s success. What’s sad is that the rest of us are missing out if you don’t share your findings in other testing you do because of those jealous people.

Offline Jamie Long

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2018, 12:06:38 PM »
We have tested each of the cam's listed for our test, we had a bunch of people ask about the Wood WM8-222 so we squeezed it into the test as well. The Dynojet Power Vision, Jackpot 2/1/2, S&S MK45 mufflers, & Screamin Eagle air cleaner we used for the test worked very well and proved to be a very consistent, strong performing combination.

We are running one last set of tests today; we are switching exhaust to a 2/1 system and using the new K&N air charger (heavy breather) type air cleaner. We are looking to determine & demonstrate the effects of how a different style exhaust & AC affects the curve and overall numbers. As noted earlier we will be compiling, sorting, & formatting all of the data and we will be posting results on Monday Feb 5th. Stay tuned! 

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2018, 01:09:41 PM »
Might be the first test of it's kind that we've seen here, all back to back and within very close time frame for weather conditions, etc.    :up:

   
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Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2018, 01:21:20 PM »
With proper testing the weather conditions will have little to no effect. I am sure the data from the first of the week will be comparable to the tests run 5 days later even with the weather changes this time of year.

Thanks Jamie for sharing here, with two real test threads in the M-8 section of HTT we are clearly the internet forum leader in data for this new engine platform.

Offline Jamie Long

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2018, 03:21:26 PM »
We tested all 6 cams over 2 days, we had everything staged and ready for Tuesday & Wednesday testing, it was truly a team effort; Travis pulled the parts & had them ready, Keith changed the cam's, I did the dyno tuning, the rest of the staff kept the business running as usual. We wrapped up the test with the exhaust & air cleaner swap today. We did everything in our power to keep the test consistent. The most difficult part was keeping the dyno cell at 72 degrees consistently, fortunately we have a really good makeup air system with variable dampers. We used fuel from the same jugs of Mobil 91 we filled from the pump on Monday. 

Offline Hossamania

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2018, 03:34:25 PM »
Sounds like quite the process!
Looking forward to the results.
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like, "You're late."

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2018, 07:38:21 PM »
Only one and a half hours until Monday.   :smile:

Offline Jamie Long

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2018, 07:12:13 AM »
Fuel Moto H-D Milwaukee-Eight® 107" Camshaft Shootout



Fuel Moto tested SIX different bolt in camshafts back-to-back to provide an accurate comparison of results. Our test bike was a 2017 Harley-Davidson Road Glide 107" Milwaukee Eight and was equipped with a Screamin' Eagle Stage 1 air cleaner, Jackpot M8 2/1/2 head pipe, S&S MK45 slip on mufflers, and each cam was fully tuned with the Dynojet Power Vision. The following cams were part of this test:

Andrews M460
Cycle-Rama 460
S&S Cycle 475C
Wood Performance-WM8-22X
Zipper's Red Shift 468
Wood Performance WM8-222

The first dyno chart below has all six of the camshafts overlaid to show their respective torque and horsepower relative to this particular set of components. All of the camshafts in our test offered significant performance increases over that of the stock camshaft.


____________________________________________________________________

Andrews M460 Camshaft
Valve Train Noise: Very Quiet
Cam Lope at Idle: Moderate
Description: This cam makes nice broad power. It comes on relatively early and pulls well to the right side of the curve. This cam placed in the middle of the test.


_____________________________________________________________________
Cycle Rama CR-460 Camshaft
Valve Train Noise: Very Quiet
Cam Lope at Idle: Moderate
Description: The Cycle Rama 460 made very good low RPM power (the second best in this test), it also provides a very broad power curve with good upper RPM power.



____________________________________________________________________

S&S Cycle 475C Camshaft
Valve Train Noise: Very Quiet
Cam Lope at Idle: Very Aggressive
Description: The S&S 475C made the second best peak HP in our test, it accelerates hard. It is very responsive and has the most aggressive lope of all the cams we tested by a significant margin.


____________________________________________________________________

Wood WM8-22X Camshaft
Valve Train Noise: Very Quiet
Cam Lope at Idle: Aggressive
Description: The WM8-22X camshaft offers the best early torque in this test, and it faired well horsepower wise. This cam is easy to tune and has an aggressive lope.


____________________________________________________________________

Zipper's Red Shift 468 Camshaft
Valve Train Noise: Very Quiet
Cam Lope at Idle: Semi-Aggressive
Description: The Red Shift 468 placed in the middle of our test for both peak torque and horsepower. It has really broad power, nice and strong through the mid RPM's. It has a semi aggressive lope.



___________________________________________________________________

Wood WM8-222 Camshaft
Valve Train Noise: Very Quiet
Cam Lope at Idle: Moderate
Description: The WM8-222 made the best overall peak horsepower. It made slightly less early torque than the other cams. It has the smoothest curve.

« Last Edit: February 05, 2018, 12:01:04 PM by Jamie Long »

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2018, 07:34:33 AM »
 :up: :up:

Offline Frédéric CM

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2018, 07:35:36 AM »
Thank you Jamie for your work !
'14 Street Bob : Andrews 57H cams (0.030" Cometic), Woods lifters, Smith Brother

Offline lucasg

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2018, 09:43:58 AM »
Great work and results Jamie.   A big thank you to you and all the team at Fuel Moto.  Always appreciate your hard work in testing and comparing ... Keep up the good work !!

 :up:

Offline Hossamania

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2018, 11:37:04 AM »
So, in a side by side race, which cam wins the quarter mile? Which cam wins the race to 100 mph from, say, 20 or 30 mph?
These are the things I think about, because I use racing to show my superiority over others, since I can't do it with intellect or skills.........
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Offline hd06myway

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2018, 01:19:25 PM »
from what I hear the heads keep the power numbers down because the stock 4v heads don't flow to their potential.. I bet with the right heads we'd see 120hp/120tq.... or better

Offline Jamie Long

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2018, 02:29:51 PM »
Here is a list of the cam specs that Max put together.


Offline BVHOG

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2018, 06:41:11 AM »
Great testing,  very similar results from cam to cam.  I would assume the exhaust is causing the dip on every chart.
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Offline Jamie Long

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2018, 07:28:33 AM »
Great testing,  very similar results from cam to cam.  I would assume the exhaust is causing the dip on every chart.

The dip was actually caused primarily from the SE air cleaner. We did some post testing with a couple different air cleaners followed by exhausts and the dip pretty well disappeared once the AC was swapped out. 

Offline sfmichael

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2018, 10:16:07 AM »
Thanks Jamie - very impressive and generous effort by you and your staff  :up: :up:
Colorado Springs, CO.

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2018, 10:47:59 AM »
Just an observation, have you thought about doing a run without the air cleaner to see if it is restricting flow?

 :banghead: :banghead:

Unless there is a method to the madness. :idea:

Offline BigT

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2018, 11:15:57 AM »
Thanks Jamie - very impressive and generous effort by you and your staff  :up: :up:
👍👍

Offline DTTJGlide

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #36 on: February 08, 2018, 07:09:38 PM »
Thanks for the testing & sharing the info with us, are you going to post info on the air cleaner & exhaust change? I know on other tests that a 2-1 changed the curve quite a bit, thanks again.

Offline NCTURBOS

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2018, 12:04:47 PM »
...are you going to post info on the air cleaner & exhaust change?...

x2, please share...

K.
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-2017 FLTRXS... Stock

Offline Jamie Long

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2018, 07:59:00 AM »
After we concluded the M8 cam test we tested a few components on our test bike to demonstrate the effect in horsepower & torque from changing the specific recipe we used. The bike has a Wood WM8-222 cam and we swapped exhaust to the Jackpot Road & Track 2/1 and we also changed from the SE air cleaner to the new K&N Filtercharger, this is a heavy breather style unit with a large elbow. Here is the dyno chart for this combination, as well as a comparison to the 222 cam with the earlier exhaust we tested.




Offline NHBAGGER

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2018, 08:43:13 AM »
Nice results.  Naturally we always want more.  Would like to see the 22X with that setup.

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2018, 10:43:32 AM »
Thanks for posting this Jamie.
Counting the Powerhouse Cycle/Joe Lyons runs in the dyno section we now can see 4 different exhaust and three different air cleaners tested with this cam in stage two trim.
The exhaust, with some influences from the air cleaners, clearly control the torque curve below 5k and the above 5k power is constant in the three performance exhaust choices. it will be interesting to see the rest of your graphs when you post them.

Offline JMHD

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #41 on: February 16, 2018, 06:30:30 PM »
Thanks for sharing your findings. Its awesome to see tests like this.Thanks again!




Offline sfmichael

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #42 on: February 17, 2018, 08:12:01 PM »
thanks again Jamie  :up:  :up:

the 222 and the 2-1 play well together - nice combo  :up:

heavy breather style A/C's are awfully hard to beat if you like that style - that is the bar IMO
Colorado Springs, CO.

Offline Jamie Long

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #43 on: February 19, 2018, 09:22:23 AM »
We performed another round of post testing from our M8 cam test. In this test we installed a FM 117 (4.125") big bore kit, however we used a lower compression 10.75:1 piston than our normal kit. This allowed us to use one of the bolt in cam's from our testing. Our test bike has the Wood WM8-222 cam, we used stock heads & throttle body, stock injectors (which are near/at the limit in this example) and the bike was equipped a Jackpot M8 2/1/2 head pipe and S&S MK45 mufflers. Tuning was done with Dynojet Power Vision. Essentially this is the same identical configuration we used with our 107 M8 cam test, the only components that were changed were the pistons & cylinders, we added 10 c.i. and gave it a bump in compression.


Offline sfmichael

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #44 on: February 19, 2018, 10:00:03 AM »
sure looks great  :up: :up:

will the 2-1 pipe follow this test?   :pop:
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Offline Sunny Jim

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Re: Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing
« Reply #45 on: Yesterday at 06:32:27 AM »
I think this is what I might be looking for. Currently running the CR460 and enjoying it.
I would like to ride that!