Author Topic: Head gasket question  (Read 1157 times)

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Offline jamn

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Re: Head gasket question
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2018, 03:36:52 PM »
Wow. Lots of different options here. What to do.  :emoGroan:
   Reply #6 does it for a living

Thank you. I have the o-rings. I got them with the top end gasket kit. And I don't have a problem replacing them, I just didn't know if it was necessary because I couldn't find any information on the subject. Now there's plenty.  :up:

Offline jsachs1

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Re: Head gasket question
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2018, 05:20:24 PM »
It's like this, if you don't replace the base o-ring, and there is not a leak later, it's all good. If it does leak, you do it again.

It's really only about time. There's a good chance it won't leak, but guys that have said they do it, some are shop owners, and they want a good reputation and a happy customer. I look at it like this, with the heads off, you're 30 minutes or less replacing both o-rings, and the oil return o-rings, so why not?
As busy as I stay, I wouldn't consider NOT changing the gaskets, seals, etc. under the cylinders. One leak because you didn't do that not only will cost you time, but most of your top end gaskets as well.
FYI, rings rotate. It's the cross hatch that controls that.
Usually the bottom of the second ring will tell you what condition the rings are in. Removing and installing the cylinders will NOT affect the seal that you had, unless you screw it up by poor installation. Don't hone the cylinders if you remove them and are going back with the original pistons. You're sure to add clearance.
John
« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 05:26:41 PM by jsachs1 »

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Head gasket question
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2018, 05:27:12 PM »
It's like this, if you don't replace the base o-ring, and there is not a leak later, it's all good. If it does leak, you do it again.

It's really only about time. There's a good chance it won't leak, but guys that have said they do it, some are shop owners, and they want a good reputation and a happy customer. I look at it like this, with the heads off, you're 30 minutes or less replacing both o-rings, and the oil return o-rings, so why not?
As busy as I stay, I wouldn't consider NOT changing the gaskets, seals, etc. under the cylinders. One leak because you didn't do that not only will cost you time, but most of your top end gaskets as well.
FYI, rings rotate. It's the cross hatch that controls that.
Usually the bottom of the second ring will tell you what condition the rings are in. Removing and installing the cylinders will NOT affect the seal that you had, unless you screw it up by poor installation.
John

 :up:   I agree with you John. Even on my own stuff, I really don't have time, or want to do things twice. If anything, I'm overly complete doing things.

When you say the bottom of the 2nd ring, what are you looking for? The lower edge of that ring being dull or rounded?
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Offline jsachs1

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Re: Head gasket question
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2018, 05:36:42 PM »
It's like this, if you don't replace the base o-ring, and there is not a leak later, it's all good. If it does leak, you do it again.

It's really only about time. There's a good chance it won't leak, but guys that have said they do it, some are shop owners, and they want a good reputation and a happy customer. I look at it like this, with the heads off, you're 30 minutes or less replacing both o-rings, and the oil return o-rings, so why not?
As busy as I stay, I wouldn't consider NOT changing the gaskets, seals, etc. under the cylinders. One leak because you didn't do that not only will cost you time, but most of your top end gaskets as well.
FYI, rings rotate. It's the cross hatch that controls that.
Usually the bottom of the second ring will tell you what condition the rings are in. Removing and installing the cylinders will NOT affect the seal that you had, unless you screw it up by poor installation.
John

 :up:   I agree with you John. Even on my own stuff, I really don't have time, or want to do things twice. If anything, I'm overly complete doing things.

When you say the bottom of the 2nd ring, what are you looking for? The lower edge of that ring being dull or rounded?
I like to see a fine shiny line, not more than .020" - '030" at the very bottom of the 2nd ring. If the ring is shiny across the whole face, then it's time to replace the whole set, after checking the piston to bore size. 9 out 10 times, you'll go to the next oversize piston and bore. :cry:
John

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Head gasket question
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2018, 05:40:31 PM »
It's like this, if you don't replace the base o-ring, and there is not a leak later, it's all good. If it does leak, you do it again.

It's really only about time. There's a good chance it won't leak, but guys that have said they do it, some are shop owners, and they want a good reputation and a happy customer. I look at it like this, with the heads off, you're 30 minutes or less replacing both o-rings, and the oil return o-rings, so why not?
As busy as I stay, I wouldn't consider NOT changing the gaskets, seals, etc. under the cylinders. One leak because you didn't do that not only will cost you time, but most of your top end gaskets as well.
FYI, rings rotate. It's the cross hatch that controls that.
Usually the bottom of the second ring will tell you what condition the rings are in. Removing and installing the cylinders will NOT affect the seal that you had, unless you screw it up by poor installation.
John

 :up:   I agree with you John. Even on my own stuff, I really don't have time, or want to do things twice. If anything, I'm overly complete doing things.

When you say the bottom of the 2nd ring, what are you looking for? The lower edge of that ring being dull or rounded?
I like to see a fine shiny line, not more than .020" - '030" at the very bottom of the 2nd ring. If the ring is shiny across the whole face, then it's time to replace the whole set, after checking the piston to bore size. 9 out 10 times, you'll go to the next oversize piston and bore. :cry:
John

Ok, that's great info John. I've seen what you mention when taking a motor down, where only the lower area of the ring face is shinny.
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Offline sfmichael

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Re: Head gasket question
« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2018, 09:08:58 PM »
"I like to see a fine shiny line, not more than .020" - '030" at the very bottom of the 2nd ring. If the ring is shiny across the whole face, then it's time to replace the whole set, after checking the piston to bore size. 9 out 10 times, you'll go to the next oversize piston and bore." :cry:
John


thanks John, that's a great tip  :up: :up:
Colorado Springs, CO.

Offline les

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Re: Head gasket question
« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2018, 07:41:22 PM »
It's interesting that this thread is saying that the situation of seating piston rings has been a myth.

Offline kd

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Re: Head gasket question
« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2018, 08:41:06 PM »
Seating is not a great term for describing ring break in. The rings wear to the cylinder surface (marginally) and the softer ring land machined surface likewise forms to the harder ring top and bottom to seal better. Once these surfaces are mated and sealing they are good until excessively worn and the ring gap widening weakens the contact with the cylinder walls.
KD

Offline les

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Re: Head gasket question
« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2018, 07:07:39 AM »
Others have more experience, but I have only one first hand experience with someone I know who pulled the jugs off and put them back without de-glazing and new rings.  He never got the rings to seal properly again and ended up taking it apart, honing, and new rings to get his engine back.  So, since this is the only situation like this I've seen, I don't pull the jugs unless I'm prepared to refresh the ring/cylinder interface.

Offline Ironheadmike

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Re: Head gasket question
« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2018, 09:58:28 AM »
If the cylinder moves at all while you are taking off the head replace to base baskets . You've broke the seal .

Offline kd

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Re: Head gasket question
« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2018, 10:42:08 AM »
The risks are there for sure.
KD

Offline jsachs1

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Re: Head gasket question
« Reply #36 on: January 29, 2018, 03:17:30 PM »
If the cylinder moves at all while you are taking off the head replace to base baskets . You've broke the seal .
Correct, you will have a tough time making the base gaskets seal again. My point, why gamble.
Just to be clear, I don't want to beat a dead horse, but you WILL NOT affect the piston ring to cylinder sealing by removing the cylinder, and re=installing. For that matter, you can remove the rings from the piston, keep them in the order of removal, re-install, and you won't have a problem with that either. :wink:
John
« Last Edit: January 29, 2018, 03:31:25 PM by jsachs1 »

Offline harley_cruiser

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Re: Head gasket question
« Reply #37 on: January 29, 2018, 04:34:00 PM »
If the cylinder moves at all while you are taking off the head replace to base baskets . You've broke the seal .
Correct, you will have a tough time making the base gaskets seal again. My point, why gamble.
Just to be clear, I don't want to beat a dead horse, but you WILL NOT affect the piston ring to cylinder sealing by removing the cylinder, and re=installing. For that matter, you can remove the rings from the piston, keep them in the order of removal, re-install, and you won't have a problem with that either. :wink:
John
John, does that go for Twin cams with the o-ring in rebate?

Offline jsachs1

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Re: Head gasket question
« Reply #38 on: January 30, 2018, 03:50:34 PM »
If the cylinder moves at all while you are taking off the head replace to base baskets . You've broke the seal .
Correct, you will have a tough time making the base gaskets seal again. My point, why gamble.
Just to be clear, I don't want to beat a dead horse, but you WILL NOT affect the piston ring to cylinder sealing by removing the cylinder, and re=installing. For that matter, you can remove the rings from the piston, keep them in the order of removal, re-install, and you won't have a problem with that either. :wink:
John
John, does that go for Twin cams with the o-ring in rebate?
No gamble here. I replace everything between the bottom of the cylinder to the top of the case, if I have the heads off no matter which engine I work on. Cheap insurance.
John

Offline jamn

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Re: Head gasket question
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2018, 06:15:30 PM »
If the cylinder moves at all while you are taking off the head replace to base baskets . You've broke the seal .
Correct, you will have a tough time making the base gaskets seal again. My point, why gamble.
Just to be clear, I don't want to beat a dead horse, but you WILL NOT affect the piston ring to cylinder sealing by removing the cylinder, and re=installing. For that matter, you can remove the rings from the piston, keep them in the order of removal, re-install, and you won't have a problem with that either. :wink:
John
John, does that go for Twin cams with the o-ring in rebate?
No gamble here. I replace everything between the bottom of the cylinder to the top of the case, if I have the heads off no matter which engine I work on. Cheap insurance.
John

Worked beautifully. Thanks :up:

Offline sfmichael

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Re: Head gasket question
« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2018, 10:56:37 PM »
 :up: good deal...how's she run?  :pop:
Colorado Springs, CO.

Offline N-gin

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Re: Head gasket question
« Reply #41 on: February 15, 2018, 12:27:52 AM »
So there are universal O-ring kits. that I have used, however not on overheating vibrators, but they do work..
Just cut and superglue. works in the Heavy equipment industry.

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Offline Thermodyne

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Re: Head gasket question
« Reply #42 on: February 15, 2018, 08:24:20 AM »
How many miles are on the motor?

If its 40K ish or more, then not putting rings in while that far in doesn't make any sense.

If you decide to not replace the rings, and just scrape the carbon, then get a set of service nuts.  That way you can keep the jugs bolted in place as you scrap on the pistons.  They are like little head nuts with an extended sleeve to reach the threads down in the jug holes.  You can do it with the head nuts and spacers, but they tend to get in the way, standing up off the jug several inches.





 

Offline jamn

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Re: Head gasket question
« Reply #43 on: February 15, 2018, 09:32:15 AM »
:up: good deal...how's she run?  :pop:

Sounds very nice in the garage, but the weather isn't good enough to get it out yet. The whole job went very well though. Rather easy actually. I removed the wrist pin to make the install easier, but I did pull the piston out to inspect everything. As far as I'm concerned, it all looked good.

35,000 miles on the motor..