Author Topic: 87 FXR valve guides  (Read 453 times)

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Offline Mule

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87 FXR valve guides
« on: February 04, 2018, 06:37:16 AM »
Last spring I did a top end for a buddy on his high mileage 87 FXR. It smoked from the get go and has been in my garage ever since. I rode it about 200 miles and it ran fine ,just huffed smoke. It is an old CHP cop bike that they customized back in 1989. The engine was stock bore standard pistons ,the heads had been ported with some really stiff Branch springs. The rocker pads were badly pitted as was the top of the valve stems. Two years ago I had replaced the cam bearing due to failure probably caused by the stiff springs. I cleaned and blasted the heads and cylinders, then jet washed all the parts, then soap and warm water. My machinist buddy that usually does valve work for me couldn't bore the evo cylinders because he has no torque plates. So it was recommended to take the parts for machining to AMS in Fresno ca. I dropped off all the parts , with new Rowe valves , five different sizes of OEM harley guides, new springs , collars and keepers along with the S&S pistons. My buddy lives in Fresno so I told him to pick the stuff up when it was ready. The parts came back with all the new guides still in the OEM packages. I asked my buddy what's up with that? He was told by AMS that the guides were fine and didn't need replaced. Well I have been busy with my own repair projects and work, but finally got around to tearing it down yesterday. Both intake valves had oil pooled on them, oil in the cylinder on the piston top and oil streaming down the exhaust valve at the guide. The guides had viton seals but did not slow the flow. So now I am fixing it for free and it's costing me for a new set of rings, and new set of MLS gaskets and machine shop work! I pulled one of the intake valves and it's real obvious to me that the guides are egg shaped on the thrust sides. The motor had around seventy thousand and the machine shop said the guides were good??? Doh! I spent a whole lot of time repainting the heads and cylinders and dressing the cooling fin edges. Sorry for the long rant but this has kind of tweaked me out... I will post a pic later...Mule...

Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: 87 FXR valve guides
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2018, 07:08:38 AM »
When these heads pass through a few shops sometimes it takes all new parts to get them back to OEM or better. Now the seats have been ground on a few times so they may be sunk bad and need replacement, depends must measure, the guides replaced (I use AV&V mag bronze), and springs. For springs I use the late model OEM beehives some of the time, depends on the cam choice. Then the valves, if worn then they get scrapped and I change to 7mm lighter valves in stock length. Of course premium viton seals and a Serdi valve job. CC chambers if desired. This is just a high quality rebuild. Sometimes its better to start with a virgin set because XYZ porting may cause a loss of power and torque. A stock block 80" motor with an EV27 and added compression (milling) runs very well.

Offline Mule

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Re: 87 FXR valve guides
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2018, 08:09:25 AM »
This is a stock build with an EV27, mild ported heads , everything was new, valves Rowe black melonite, comp cams complete valve spring kit, viton seals, and new guides supplied to the machine shop were new but not used!!! The valve job was done on serdi equipment!
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 08:18:21 AM by Mule »

Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: 87 FXR valve guides
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2018, 08:15:11 AM »
Too Bad, they missed the very important step of replacing the guides.
Easy fix

Offline Mule

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Re: 87 FXR valve guides
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2018, 08:23:26 AM »
Not such an easy fix on a custom bike where everything is a pain to disassemble.!!! A stock bike maybe! And the closest machine shop is 40 miles away...

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: 87 FXR valve guides
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2018, 08:25:11 AM »
Use the brown truck to send the heads to someone who understand HD's and has worked on many.
For the best deal on bike parts, call Calif Phil
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Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: 87 FXR valve guides
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2018, 08:31:31 AM »
Not such an easy fix on a custom bike where everything is a pain to disassemble.!!! A stock bike maybe! And the closest machine shop is 40 miles away...
I can help, washington state.
I feel your pain, that is a bitch for sure

Offline Mule

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Re: 87 FXR valve guides
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2018, 08:39:08 AM »
No Brown truck up here where I live, still would have to drive the 40 miles to ship them. I already talked to the guy who does head work for me, I will take them to him, This AMS shop was recommended because My guy doesn't bore evo cylinders and we were trying to get everything done at one place.  He has some shovelhead heads to work over for me as well...

Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: 87 FXR valve guides
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2018, 08:42:02 AM »
US Postal then?
Trying to help not put salt on the wound

Offline kd

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Re: 87 FXR valve guides
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2018, 08:59:12 AM »
 :agree:  Money well spent sending them to someone that does such a high volume of high quality cylinder head work and has a good reputation.  For example, will your buddy recognize overworked seats and valve protrusion specs etc.  Just sayin .... You will know that what you get back will be better than OEM new. Don is not known to oversell.
KD

Offline Mule

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Re: 87 FXR valve guides
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2018, 09:55:26 AM »
It's obvious that the seats are not pocketed, the valve stem protrusion is 2" exactly right where it's supposed to be! These seats haven't been hogged out by someone with seat grinding stones, what is painfully obvious is the guides are egg shaped and worn out!


 Not exactly the first motor I have worked on, I have put together a few of these Evo motors over the years and never had a problem

Offline kd

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Re: 87 FXR valve guides
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2018, 10:09:28 AM »
I respect that my friend. BTW, the pics you show by my eye seem to have a low on the valve seat contact (unless it is just my perception from the shading). If you feel they will withstand another valve grind then you should go for it. As you know, they will need to be retouched after the guides are installed which may change things slightly.
KD

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: 87 FXR valve guides
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2018, 10:10:30 AM »
I respect that my friend. BTW, the pics you show by my eye seem to have a low on the valve seat contact (unless it is just my perception from the shading). If you feel they will withstand another valve grind then you should go for it. As you know, they will need to be retouched after the guides are installed which may change things slightly.


    :up:
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Offline Mule

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Re: 87 FXR valve guides
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2018, 10:17:41 AM »
I am aware that the seats need to be re cut after the guides are installed

Offline wfolarry

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Re: 87 FXR valve guides
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2018, 11:51:55 AM »
Looking at the pictures it looks like you got a chitty valve job if you got one at all.
The girls were pretty when I clicked on the photo so you've got that going for you.
Good luck.

Offline Mule

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Re: 87 FXR valve guides
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2018, 12:06:12 PM »
Only one girl in that photo album, my wife, she is recovering from Cancer treatment now.

Offline kd

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Re: 87 FXR valve guides
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2018, 12:15:35 PM »
 :rose: to her and her happy smile.
KD

Offline Thermodyne

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Re: 87 FXR valve guides
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2018, 01:47:03 PM »
Check the casting numbers on those heads.  If they are -84, then you'll want to leak test them.

Back in the day, people wouldn't even push guides into -84's, let alone cut on the intake ports or add big springs.  Smoking right from the get go was one of the issues.  They would crack during the rebuild and then smoke right from the first start.   Usually from pushing the guides in and out.   

Harley replaced a lot of them, and a lot of the pulls found their way back into service.   

Offline Mule

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Re: 87 FXR valve guides
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2018, 04:26:10 PM »
I will check thanks! The heads are original to the 87 motor , but they could be early castings...

Offline Mule

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Re: 87 FXR valve guides
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2018, 04:37:12 AM »
They are a 84 A  part numbers I haven't figured out the date code yet.

Offline Scott P

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Re: 87 FXR valve guides
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2018, 07:52:11 AM »
AV&V guides have a seal, and a shoulder where it meets the head.
Otto Knowbetter sez, "Even a fish wouldn't get caught if he kept his mouth shut"

Offline Mule

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Re: 87 FXR valve guides
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2018, 08:19:36 AM »
Well KD is right and WFOlarry also chitty valve job and the  seat contact on the valve face is low.To correct the contact problem is going to throw the valve protrusion off. Maybe able to correct things a bit with over sized valves. Looking at the old valves it's hard to tell the contact area for sure as they are really beat from the stiff valve springs. The Guides are indeed egg shaped, but in reality there is more oil in the cylinders than just from guides. I am trying to figure out my screw up and maybe I found it. The instructions from the s&s rings are all over the map. They have a cast ring and a chrome faced ring. The instructions that came with the pistons said the dot goes up in the top groove and the ring with no markings goes or bevels in the second groove, and that's the way I installed them. But pulling up instructions on the internet says the chrome ring goes to the top groove and the cast into the second?  A little confusing to say the least.  I am going to put Hastings cast rings  in with well defined instructions upon reassembly. 

Offline Mule

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Re: 87 FXR valve guides
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2018, 09:36:37 AM »
Yeah now I have pretty much confirmed I installed the top and second groove rings in the wrong locations, my screw up my bad! I remember agonizing over installing the rings , putting on my magnifiers etc. A good kick in the but lesson...