Author Topic: Couple Questions  (Read 863 times)

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Offline Flyingbroke

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Couple Questions
« on: February 04, 2018, 08:57:01 AM »
I have my 2014 street glide torn down going with a 110 build while waiting on parts I keep thinking if i should install the Axtell oil bypass valve with red shift dual piston cam tensioners. Bike has 23,000 miles and cam shoes like like new but better or more consistent pressure sounds legit and better oil pressure control cant hurt .Question is are either of these things any more than snake oil and are they worth doing.

                             Thank you, Alan

Offline K4FXD

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Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2018, 11:11:01 AM »
I'm using the by-pass valve and it does help my oil pressure when hot idling. Holds about 12 psi at 950 RPM hot, Before it was 8
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Offline kd

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Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2018, 11:49:41 AM »
I have the Axtel bypass valve and Baisley LMR2 spring together. I have real good oil pressure when hot, which to me translates into real good flow to all of the needy parts. I don't see it as snake oil when it was recommended by Dan Baisley (for high output engines) when I asked him if he felt I should have / do anything else / other than the build recipe I shared with him. It was a locost add-on.
KD

Offline wfolarry

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Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2018, 11:54:11 AM »
The increased pressure at idle makes it worth every penny.

Offline koko3052

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Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2018, 12:11:12 PM »
I agree with the part of increasing the oil pressure at idle. The part that I think is "snake oil" is the redshift tensioners....you have the hyd. tensioners in your camchest. :scratch: :potstir:

Offline Brew61

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Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2018, 12:31:02 PM »
I have the Axtel bypass valve and Baisley LMR2 spring together. I have real good oil pressure when hot, which to me translates into real good flow to all of the needy parts. I don't see it as snake oil when it was recommended by Dan Baisley (for high output engines) when I asked him if he felt I should have / do anything else / other than the build recipe I shared with him. It was a locost add-on.

KD

My question is, how did you use the Axtel valve with the Baisley spring? I was running the Baisley spring and then change that out for the Axtel Bypass Valve. Now the spring that came with the Axtel bypass valve is really tiny compared to the Baisley.

Bruce

Offline kd

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Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2018, 01:14:34 PM »
I bought the valve and the spring from Mr Baisley. He partners with Ron Dickey at Axtel in their motorcycle speed endeavors and he gets the valves from them. They were packaged separately into one bag. The Axtel valve did not have a spring. I installed the Baisley spring as per the instructions in the bag.  AFAIK, it really is just a more finely machined component to an exacted tolerance to move and seat more dependably. Dan sells the springs which are made by Latus Motors Racing.

I explained to Dan that I had the late model 2013 pump SE cam plate in combination with S&S premiums with limiters  and was under the impression I really shouldn't need to change them. He did not try to sway my opinion but did tell me what I would notice as a difference, especially with the type of valve springs I was using for high RPM control. His explanation for the spring, as you know, is on his site.

http://www.baisley.com/oil_spring_product.htm
KD

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2018, 01:58:42 PM »
From Mr Baisley in the link

"Cams with aggressive ramp designed make it difficult for lifters to follow the lobe profile when they bleed off too quickly due to inadequate oil pressure.   This can result in valve train noise and performance loses.  An increase in oil pressure helps overcome this added stress for a quieter valve train and engine."


I don't think lifters work this way, the additional oil pressure may or may not help replenish the oil inside the lifter body faster  but either way I do not see how additional pressure in the engine supply passages could change the bleed off rate of a lifter, i believe that is set by the lifter tolerances.

Offline K4FXD

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Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2018, 02:15:47 PM »
The added oil pressure fills the lifter faster, sometimes overcoming the loose lifter.
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Offline kd

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Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2018, 02:19:39 PM »
That's my understanding too. I am using limiters set 1-2 flats (tight) so I have less fear of a lifter pumping up at high RPM and increasing the valve travel distance.
KD

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2018, 02:36:18 PM »
That's my understanding too. I am using limiters set 1-2 flats (tight) so I have less fear of a lifter pumping up at high RPM and increasing the valve travel distance.

How does the limiter keep the lifter from pumping up?

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2018, 02:40:38 PM »
The added oil pressure fills the lifter faster, sometimes overcoming the loose lifter.

I understand the theory but a good tight tolerance lifter is what keeps the lifter from bleeding down. I would like to see someone measure the actual pressure change in the lifter feed passage after the bypass work is done.

Online FXDBI

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Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2018, 02:44:18 PM »
The added oil pressure fills the lifter faster, sometimes overcoming the loose lifter.

I understand the theory but a good tight tolerance lifter is what keeps the lifter from bleeding down. I would like to see someone measure the actual pressure change in the lifter feed passage after the bypass work is done.

Pressure is distributed equally in all directions in a fluid if the oil pressure increases it increases in the feed passages.  Bob

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2018, 02:52:27 PM »
The added oil pressure fills the lifter faster, sometimes overcoming the loose lifter.

I understand the theory but a good tight tolerance lifter is what keeps the lifter from bleeding down. I would like to see someone measure the actual pressure change in the lifter feed passage after the bypass work is done.

Pressure is distributed equally in all directions in a fluid if the oil pressure increases it increases in the feed passages.  Bob

Until you add flow, then the farther down line you go the greater the line loss.

Online FXDBI

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Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2018, 03:08:54 PM »
The added oil pressure fills the lifter faster, sometimes overcoming the loose lifter.

I understand the theory but a good tight tolerance lifter is what keeps the lifter from bleeding down. I would like to see someone measure the actual pressure change in the lifter feed passage after the bypass work is done.

Pressure is distributed equally in all directions in a fluid if the oil pressure increases it increases in the feed passages.  Bob

Until you add flow, then the farther down line you go the greater the line loss.

Only if the flow hits a open end. You will keep system pressure until the lose is bigger than the pump can provide. System pressure will stay the same with flow in a closed system. Or pressurized system that is bypassing to keep pressure down, it will bypass less to maintain system pressure. Blow a hydraulic hose it comes out at system pressure until it loses its ability to keep up. Need system lose to reduce pressure.  Bob
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 03:13:58 PM by FXDBI »

Offline K4FXD

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Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2018, 03:11:43 PM »
TC's oil the lifters straight off the pump.
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Offline jsachs1

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Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2018, 03:19:57 PM »
From Mr Baisley in the link

"Cams with aggressive ramp designed make it difficult for lifters to follow the lobe profile when they bleed off too quickly due to inadequate oil pressure.   This can result in valve train noise and performance loses.  An increase in oil pressure helps overcome this added stress for a quieter valve train and engine."


I don't think lifters work this way, the additional oil pressure may or may not help replenish the oil inside the lifter body faster  but either way I do not see how additional pressure in the engine supply passages could change the bleed off rate of a lifter, i believe that is set by the lifter tolerances.
Watch on a Spintron.
It's the valve spring that tries to control the lifter/cam contact. Cam profile vs. rpm.  :wink:
John

Offline Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers

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Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2018, 03:36:16 PM »
I have the red shift duel pistons, they are OK, not needed on a mild cam, wear faster. I'm taking mine out next cam service.
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Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2018, 03:59:33 PM »
TC's oil the lifters straight off the pump.

Right after the oil goes though the cam plate passage, through the main feed passage in the cases, through the filter or filter bypass, back through another case passage, back into the cam plate down the plate distribution port, back into the case passage that actually feeds two lifters and a piston oiler. You are seeing a pressure increase at a sensor in the first passage between the pump and filter and you then have to calculate what the oil flow will increase at the end of a 12" long .290 dia tube with five 90 degree corners will be when you add 5 psi to the feed end because that is what will be available to help refill the lifter.   

Offline Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers

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Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2018, 04:03:55 PM »
I'm on feulings web page, I can't find the duel Piston tentioners, just single.
http://www.feulingparts.com/products/Hydraulic%20Cam%20Chain%20Components/Replacement%20Components/8077
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Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2018, 04:11:25 PM »
I knew Zippers has dual piston cam tensioners, I wasn't aware Fueling did.


http://www.zippersperformance.com/red-shift-dual-piston-tensioners.html

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Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2018, 04:13:22 PM »
The added oil pressure fills the lifter faster, sometimes overcoming the loose lifter.

I understand the theory but a good tight tolerance lifter is what keeps the lifter from bleeding down. I would like to see someone measure the actual pressure change in the lifter feed passage after the bypass work is done.

Pressure is distributed equally in all directions in a fluid if the oil pressure increases it increases in the feed passages.  Bob

Until you add flow, then the farther down line you go the greater the line loss.

Only if the flow hits a open end. You will keep system pressure until the lose is bigger than the pump can provide. System pressure will stay the same with flow in a closed system. Or pressurized system that is bypassing to keep pressure down, it will bypass less to maintain system pressure. Blow a hydraulic hose it comes out at system pressure until it loses its ability to keep up. Need system lose to reduce pressure.  Bob

The lifter itself is the hydraulic system (and they are not closed because they are controlled bleed off)you are comparing to, the engine oiling system is not. Everything in the engine is an open end, no pressure at the connecting rod rollers, no seals on any bushings, lifter bores are total loss, cam bearing surfaces in the cam plate and so on. This is an open flow oiling system not a closed hydraulic system.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 04:43:16 PM by 1FSTRK »

Offline Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers

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Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2018, 04:15:14 PM »
I knew Zippers has dual piston cam tensioners, I wasn't aware Fueling did.


http://www.zippersperformance.com/red-shift-dual-piston-tensioners.html

Yes, no wonder I could not find them, :-)
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Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2018, 04:21:36 PM »
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Offline K4FXD

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Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2018, 05:28:19 PM »
So just making sure I understand you;

The only place that has oil "pressure" is between the pump and oil filter?

 :idunno:

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