Author Topic: Couple Questions  (Read 1120 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Flyingbroke

  • Member
  • Posts: 22
  • Country: us
Couple Questions
« on: February 04, 2018, 08:57:01 AM »
I have my 2014 street glide torn down going with a 110 build while waiting on parts I keep thinking if i should install the Axtell oil bypass valve with red shift dual piston cam tensioners. Bike has 23,000 miles and cam shoes like like new but better or more consistent pressure sounds legit and better oil pressure control cant hurt .Question is are either of these things any more than snake oil and are they worth doing.

                             Thank you, Alan

Offline K4FXD

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1033
  • Country: us
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2018, 11:11:01 AM »
I'm using the by-pass valve and it does help my oil pressure when hot idling. Holds about 12 psi at 950 RPM hot, Before it was 8
I prefer dangerous freedom to peaceful slavery

Offline kd

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5712
  • Country: ca
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2018, 11:49:41 AM »
I have the Axtel bypass valve and Baisley LMR2 spring together. I have real good oil pressure when hot, which to me translates into real good flow to all of the needy parts. I don't see it as snake oil when it was recommended by Dan Baisley (for high output engines) when I asked him if he felt I should have / do anything else / other than the build recipe I shared with him. It was a locost add-on.
KD

Offline wfolarry

  • Premium Vendor
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2599
  • Country: us
  • BREATHE DEEP
    • Larry's Motorcycle & Machine Inc.
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2018, 11:54:11 AM »
The increased pressure at idle makes it worth every penny.

Offline koko3052

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5299
  • Country: ca
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2018, 12:11:12 PM »
I agree with the part of increasing the oil pressure at idle. The part that I think is "snake oil" is the redshift tensioners....you have the hyd. tensioners in your camchest. :scratch: :potstir:

Offline Brew61

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 71
  • Country: ca
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2018, 12:31:02 PM »
I have the Axtel bypass valve and Baisley LMR2 spring together. I have real good oil pressure when hot, which to me translates into real good flow to all of the needy parts. I don't see it as snake oil when it was recommended by Dan Baisley (for high output engines) when I asked him if he felt I should have / do anything else / other than the build recipe I shared with him. It was a locost add-on.

KD

My question is, how did you use the Axtel valve with the Baisley spring? I was running the Baisley spring and then change that out for the Axtel Bypass Valve. Now the spring that came with the Axtel bypass valve is really tiny compared to the Baisley.

Bruce

Offline kd

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5712
  • Country: ca
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2018, 01:14:34 PM »
I bought the valve and the spring from Mr Baisley. He partners with Ron Dickey at Axtel in their motorcycle speed endeavors and he gets the valves from them. They were packaged separately into one bag. The Axtel valve did not have a spring. I installed the Baisley spring as per the instructions in the bag.  AFAIK, it really is just a more finely machined component to an exacted tolerance to move and seat more dependably. Dan sells the springs which are made by Latus Motors Racing.

I explained to Dan that I had the late model 2013 pump SE cam plate in combination with S&S premiums with limiters  and was under the impression I really shouldn't need to change them. He did not try to sway my opinion but did tell me what I would notice as a difference, especially with the type of valve springs I was using for high RPM control. His explanation for the spring, as you know, is on his site.

http://www.baisley.com/oil_spring_product.htm
KD

Online 1FSTRK

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 7850
  • Country: 00
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2018, 01:58:42 PM »
From Mr Baisley in the link

"Cams with aggressive ramp designed make it difficult for lifters to follow the lobe profile when they bleed off too quickly due to inadequate oil pressure.   This can result in valve train noise and performance loses.  An increase in oil pressure helps overcome this added stress for a quieter valve train and engine."


I don't think lifters work this way, the additional oil pressure may or may not help replenish the oil inside the lifter body faster  but either way I do not see how additional pressure in the engine supply passages could change the bleed off rate of a lifter, i believe that is set by the lifter tolerances.
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

Offline K4FXD

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1033
  • Country: us
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2018, 02:15:47 PM »
The added oil pressure fills the lifter faster, sometimes overcoming the loose lifter.
I prefer dangerous freedom to peaceful slavery

Offline kd

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5712
  • Country: ca
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2018, 02:19:39 PM »
That's my understanding too. I am using limiters set 1-2 flats (tight) so I have less fear of a lifter pumping up at high RPM and increasing the valve travel distance.
KD

Online 1FSTRK

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 7850
  • Country: 00
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2018, 02:36:18 PM »
That's my understanding too. I am using limiters set 1-2 flats (tight) so I have less fear of a lifter pumping up at high RPM and increasing the valve travel distance.

How does the limiter keep the lifter from pumping up?
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

Online 1FSTRK

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 7850
  • Country: 00
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2018, 02:40:38 PM »
The added oil pressure fills the lifter faster, sometimes overcoming the loose lifter.

I understand the theory but a good tight tolerance lifter is what keeps the lifter from bleeding down. I would like to see someone measure the actual pressure change in the lifter feed passage after the bypass work is done.
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

Online FXDBI

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 2475
  • Country: ca
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2018, 02:44:18 PM »
The added oil pressure fills the lifter faster, sometimes overcoming the loose lifter.

I understand the theory but a good tight tolerance lifter is what keeps the lifter from bleeding down. I would like to see someone measure the actual pressure change in the lifter feed passage after the bypass work is done.

Pressure is distributed equally in all directions in a fluid if the oil pressure increases it increases in the feed passages.  Bob

Online 1FSTRK

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 7850
  • Country: 00
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2018, 02:52:27 PM »
The added oil pressure fills the lifter faster, sometimes overcoming the loose lifter.

I understand the theory but a good tight tolerance lifter is what keeps the lifter from bleeding down. I would like to see someone measure the actual pressure change in the lifter feed passage after the bypass work is done.

Pressure is distributed equally in all directions in a fluid if the oil pressure increases it increases in the feed passages.  Bob

Until you add flow, then the farther down line you go the greater the line loss.
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

Online FXDBI

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 2475
  • Country: ca
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2018, 03:08:54 PM »
The added oil pressure fills the lifter faster, sometimes overcoming the loose lifter.

I understand the theory but a good tight tolerance lifter is what keeps the lifter from bleeding down. I would like to see someone measure the actual pressure change in the lifter feed passage after the bypass work is done.

Pressure is distributed equally in all directions in a fluid if the oil pressure increases it increases in the feed passages.  Bob

Until you add flow, then the farther down line you go the greater the line loss.

Only if the flow hits a open end. You will keep system pressure until the lose is bigger than the pump can provide. System pressure will stay the same with flow in a closed system. Or pressurized system that is bypassing to keep pressure down, it will bypass less to maintain system pressure. Blow a hydraulic hose it comes out at system pressure until it loses its ability to keep up. Need system lose to reduce pressure.  Bob
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 03:13:58 PM by FXDBI »

Offline K4FXD

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1033
  • Country: us
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2018, 03:11:43 PM »
TC's oil the lifters straight off the pump.
I prefer dangerous freedom to peaceful slavery

Offline jsachs1

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1311
  • Country: 00
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2018, 03:19:57 PM »
From Mr Baisley in the link

"Cams with aggressive ramp designed make it difficult for lifters to follow the lobe profile when they bleed off too quickly due to inadequate oil pressure.   This can result in valve train noise and performance loses.  An increase in oil pressure helps overcome this added stress for a quieter valve train and engine."


I don't think lifters work this way, the additional oil pressure may or may not help replenish the oil inside the lifter body faster  but either way I do not see how additional pressure in the engine supply passages could change the bleed off rate of a lifter, i believe that is set by the lifter tolerances.
Watch on a Spintron.
It's the valve spring that tries to control the lifter/cam contact. Cam profile vs. rpm.  :wink:
John

Offline harley_cruiser

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1996
  • Country: us
    • Rocker Lockers
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2018, 03:36:16 PM »
I have the red shift duel pistons, they are OK, not needed on a mild cam, wear faster. I'm taking mine out next cam service.

Online 1FSTRK

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 7850
  • Country: 00
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2018, 03:59:33 PM »
TC's oil the lifters straight off the pump.

Right after the oil goes though the cam plate passage, through the main feed passage in the cases, through the filter or filter bypass, back through another case passage, back into the cam plate down the plate distribution port, back into the case passage that actually feeds two lifters and a piston oiler. You are seeing a pressure increase at a sensor in the first passage between the pump and filter and you then have to calculate what the oil flow will increase at the end of a 12" long .290 dia tube with five 90 degree corners will be when you add 5 psi to the feed end because that is what will be available to help refill the lifter.   
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

Offline harley_cruiser

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1996
  • Country: us
    • Rocker Lockers
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2018, 04:03:55 PM »
I'm on feulings web page, I can't find the duel Piston tentioners, just single.
http://www.feulingparts.com/products/Hydraulic%20Cam%20Chain%20Components/Replacement%20Components/8077

Offline Ohio HD

  • Professional Cat Herder
  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19283
  • Country: us
  • OH CRAP!
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2018, 04:11:25 PM »
I knew Zippers has dual piston cam tensioners, I wasn't aware Fueling did.


http://www.zippersperformance.com/red-shift-dual-piston-tensioners.html

For the best deal on bike parts, call Calif Phil
     www.harleypartscheap.com

Online 1FSTRK

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 7850
  • Country: 00
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2018, 04:13:22 PM »
The added oil pressure fills the lifter faster, sometimes overcoming the loose lifter.

I understand the theory but a good tight tolerance lifter is what keeps the lifter from bleeding down. I would like to see someone measure the actual pressure change in the lifter feed passage after the bypass work is done.

Pressure is distributed equally in all directions in a fluid if the oil pressure increases it increases in the feed passages.  Bob

Until you add flow, then the farther down line you go the greater the line loss.

Only if the flow hits a open end. You will keep system pressure until the lose is bigger than the pump can provide. System pressure will stay the same with flow in a closed system. Or pressurized system that is bypassing to keep pressure down, it will bypass less to maintain system pressure. Blow a hydraulic hose it comes out at system pressure until it loses its ability to keep up. Need system lose to reduce pressure.  Bob

The lifter itself is the hydraulic system (and they are not closed because they are controlled bleed off)you are comparing to, the engine oiling system is not. Everything in the engine is an open end, no pressure at the connecting rod rollers, no seals on any bushings, lifter bores are total loss, cam bearing surfaces in the cam plate and so on. This is an open flow oiling system not a closed hydraulic system.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 04:43:16 PM by 1FSTRK »
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

Offline harley_cruiser

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1996
  • Country: us
    • Rocker Lockers
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2018, 04:15:14 PM »
I knew Zippers has dual piston cam tensioners, I wasn't aware Fueling did.


http://www.zippersperformance.com/red-shift-dual-piston-tensioners.html

Yes, no wonder I could not find them, :-)

Offline Ohio HD

  • Professional Cat Herder
  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19283
  • Country: us
  • OH CRAP!
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2018, 04:21:36 PM »
For the best deal on bike parts, call Calif Phil
     www.harleypartscheap.com

Offline K4FXD

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1033
  • Country: us
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2018, 05:28:19 PM »
So just making sure I understand you;

The only place that has oil "pressure" is between the pump and oil filter?

 :idunno:

:chop: :scoot: :scratch: :slap:
I prefer dangerous freedom to peaceful slavery

Online PoorUB

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13942
  • Country: us
  • Tropical Fargo, ND
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2018, 05:35:51 PM »
There is pressure in the whole system. All engines are total loss lube. Leakage between bushings and shafts, lifters and bores, it is all typical to any engine. Also the oil to the mains bearings and connecting rods is metered. The mains and rods do not get constant flow, almost, but not quite. only when the oil hole in the plate bushing lines up with the hole in the crankshaft. As long as the oil leaks off at a similar rate to the flow the oil pump produces there will be pressure.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 08:37:48 PM by PoorUB »
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Online 1FSTRK

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 7850
  • Country: 00
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2018, 07:29:04 PM »
So just making sure I understand you;

The only place that has oil "pressure" is between the pump and oil filter?

 :idunno:

:chop: :scoot: :scratch: :slap:

No but the sensor is telling you the pressure at that point. Look into what happens to the lifter oil supply when you have a leaky piston cooling jet, pressure is somewhat compartmentalized by the shape and length of the passages. Do you say that the oil coming out of the holes in the crankpin is at the same pressure as the oil in the passage at the sensor? how about the oil that comes out of the exhaust rocker passage onto the exhaust valve spring?
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

Offline K4FXD

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1033
  • Country: us
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2018, 08:39:11 PM »
It does not matter, an oil pressure increase is an increase. It will increase the same across the board.

If the stock valve leaks and you get 8 psi at idle, and the filter loses 4 you have 4 psi at the lifter. If the new valve does not leak and you have 12 psi, and the filter loses 4, you have 8 psi at the lifter.

 :banghead: :banghead:
I prefer dangerous freedom to peaceful slavery

Online 1FSTRK

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 7850
  • Country: 00
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2018, 11:21:24 PM »
It does not matter, an oil pressure increase is an increase. It will increase the same across the board.

If the stock valve leaks and you get 8 psi at idle, and the filter loses 4 you have 4 psi at the lifter. If the new valve does not leak and you have 12 psi, and the filter loses 4, you have 8 psi at the lifter.

 :banghead: :banghead:

So we agree that the pressure at the lifter can be less than the pressure at the sensor.
We also agree that if you raise the pressure at the lifter the replenish rate will increase some.

The added oil pressure fills the lifter faster, sometimes overcoming the loose lifter.

We also agree that if there is enough increase in pressure and flow at the lifter in some cases it can make up for the losses of a high leak down lifter and allow it to pump back up.

That brings us back to my first post.

From Mr Baisley in the link

"Cams with aggressive ramp designed make it difficult for lifters to follow the lobe profile when they bleed off too quickly due to inadequate oil pressure.   This can result in valve train noise and performance loses.  An increase in oil pressure helps overcome this added stress for a quieter valve train and engine."


I don't think lifters work this way, the additional oil pressure may or may not help replenish the oil inside the lifter body faster  but either way I do not see how additional pressure in the engine supply passages could change the bleed off rate of a lifter, i believe that is set by the lifter tolerances.

Rather then chance the sometimes it makes enough, and rather then put a bandaid on a cheap lifter, why not just replace the cheap lifters with high quality slow bleed lifters and fix the actual problem.

Added
I am not against a better made, better operating bypass and the extra pressure in these low pressure oil bath engines is not a horrible thing but we also need to address the actual problem parts that need fixing and consider some possible unforeseen consequences like increased sumping and constant oil filter bypass.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 11:53:27 PM by 1FSTRK »
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

Offline kd

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5712
  • Country: ca
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2018, 06:32:49 AM »
That's my understanding too. I am using limiters set 1-2 flats (tight) so I have less fear of a lifter pumping up at high RPM and increasing the valve travel distance.

How does the limiter keep the lifter from pumping up?


 :oops:  Well I misspoke big time there. I use the limiters and "don't" have to worry about the lifters leaking down. My valves are upsized more than is normal so I do have concerns about interference. I am using heavy valve springs because I often venture into that RPM that requires good  control of the valves. Control of the valve timing (so to speak) is my goal.

My conversation with Mr Baisley about the LMR2 spring and Axtel valve was clearly around valve control in that adequate oil supply will go a long way to reducing "lifter" noise because the better oil pressure "feeds" the hot oil to the lifter more efficiently and will therefore ensure the lifter retains its adjustment better and be in the right place at the right time. The best lifters ARE a requirement with high spring pressure and that does not mean the best priced lifter. He was happy to hear I was using S&S Premiums with limiters because they ARE a known quantity and ARE top tier lifters. We both agreed that they are still a service item in my combination and have a service life (in his offered opinion) of max 30,000 miles no matter how good they sound.  The rollers are doing double duty and the risk of failure there is high. IMO, with a lifter, it is not just about the hydraulic fit of the plunger when it comes to service life and risk management. 


From Mr Baisley in the link
 
Quote from: 1FSTRK on Yesterday at 01:58:42 PM
From Mr Baisley in the link

"Cams with aggressive ramp designed make it difficult for lifters to follow the lobe profile "when" they bleed off too quickly due to inadequate oil pressure.   This can result in valve train noise and performance loses.  An increase in oil pressure helps overcome this added stress for a quieter valve train and engine."


I don't think lifters work this way, the additional oil pressure may or may not help replenish the oil inside the lifter body faster  but either way I do not see how additional pressure in the engine supply passages could change the bleed off rate of a lifter, i believe that is set by the lifter tolerances.


 
I also believe the statement on the website you have highlighted about lifters bleeding off is more poorly written than wrong. He says "when" and you left that out.  I think we all agree that with poor oil feed to the lifters they may not keep up under extreme use and get noisy. I am sure that is what he is saying. In his shop they specialize in heads for high performance applications (Baisley Hi-Performance) and I believe that is the focus of the statement. The fact that his next sentence also points out possible performance loss supports that statement (ie. reduced lift from leak down) These performance head modifications usually mean more extreme spring pressure to keep the lifter on the more aggressive cams that are being used and he is talking about the downside of that in brief without giving a course in hydraulics.. He adds that the extra oil pressure "helps overcome this added stress for a quieter valve train and engine." The expression "added stress" to me indicates he is referring to high performance heavy springs and aggressive cam profiles.  Any increased bleed off rate in his game is related to spring pressure influence, cam profile, RPM (and possibly heat). I guess my point is, one has to read the whole statement to get the meaning and not just cherry pick a few words.

Back to the OP's question, I personally don't think the spring and valve are snake oil. You may or may not benefit from them though as that's dependent on your build and riding style. Call Dan and talk to him. He has more experience in this area than many of us here that offer opinions. He's a highly credible guy and has a stellar reputation. I don't think he's going to sell you a snake oil product.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2018, 07:32:32 AM by kd »
KD

Online 1FSTRK

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 7850
  • Country: 00
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2018, 06:57:22 AM »
I never said snake oil and another way to look at my postings is that by trying to bring clarity to this it may prevent someone that buys the valve and spring to solve a noisy lifter problem from then being upset when it does not quiet the valve train because they had poorly made or worn lifters.

We both agree the statement from the site is weak at best and when you link to it as an explanation of how this product works or helps it can and will confuse some people. The part Mr Sachs brought up also further confuses the issue of how the lifter is held to follow the cam lobe. How many times have you run into people that think the oil pump pressure is what opens the engine valve or that more pump pressure will directly send more oil to the upper end, these misunderstandings happen all the time. If they did not we would not keep having these new threads.
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

Offline kd

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5712
  • Country: ca
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2018, 07:20:30 AM »
I do get what you are saying. The only reason I commented about the snake oil thing was to stay on track with the OP's question and give my opinion (for whatever that is worth) and I qualified it by saying he should talk to Dan. Those that have spoken with him find it to usually be very enlightening. The LMR spring and a higher quality valve are only meant to make up for the extra stress of high performance modifications and probably will not add too much value to a stock or close to stock application. You are right when you state there could be unintended consequences of things like sumping. One needs to be prepared to recognize that if it happens and then take the appropriate action to cure it.  Usually more $$$$  :crook:  These devices may however mask a problem with a lifter hydraulic failure that is beginning or a lower quality offering that is not performing up to the required level.

I actually think jsachs1 is on topic with us too. We all sometimes don't communicate in enough depth to get our point across accurately enough. I used to chuckle to myself sometimes when Max did that. He had a high level of understanding about something and said only enough to make his point. What you would call the "executive summary" version if you know what I mean. Some get that and other's don't. I know when I ask a question it is because the executive summary went over my head and I need to be guided by the details. 
« Last Edit: February 05, 2018, 08:19:46 AM by kd »
KD

Online 1FSTRK

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 7850
  • Country: 00
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2018, 07:43:24 AM »
I agree jsachs was on subject and correct. I think (if I understand him correctly) he was pointing out another confusing area of the information I quoted from the link. Here is where my wording was bad.
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

Offline kd

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5712
  • Country: ca
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2018, 02:29:52 PM »
 IMPORTANT UPDATE   

 :oops:  Ohio HD and I have just had a short discussion by PM that caused me to call Bailey Performance and confirm what I have in my engine. It turns out the Latus LMR-002 spring can not be used with the Axtel valve because the Axtel valve is designed to work differently than the OEM valve that the LMR spring does help. When I first spoke with Mr. Baisley we discussed both units and I suppose I assumed they worked together. When I received my parts from him the spring and valve were packaged together and included a service sheet describing the benefits and installation instructions. The only thing I noticed about the valve was the seat profile was different so I thought some dimensional work made the difference. As it turns out, the valve is provided by Baisley Performance (not Axtel) when you buy the spring set and it is carefully reground to give a better seal on the seat.

Again, .... the 2 devices are separate entities and do not integrate with each other. I have the LMR-002 spring and an OEM valve spool that Baisley Performance polishes and regrinds the seat on to ensure a quality operating set. The Axtel system is different and as said previously has a much weaker spring because it operates using a pilot hole for bypassing oil. My apologies for any confusion I have caused.  :embarrassed:

I am waiting for a further conversation with Mr Baisley and if I am still misguided in my understanding I will further correct my information. 

I also want to thank Ohio HD for contacting me with the information that sent me on my quest for the right information
« Last Edit: February 05, 2018, 02:41:36 PM by kd »
KD

Online 1FSTRK

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 7850
  • Country: 00
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2018, 02:59:22 PM »
Thanks for the clarification KD and thanks for all your posts.

"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

Offline Ohio HD

  • Professional Cat Herder
  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19283
  • Country: us
  • OH CRAP!
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2018, 03:45:02 PM »
IMPORTANT UPDATE   

 :oops:  Ohio HD and I have just had a short discussion by PM that caused me to call Bailey Performance and confirm what I have in my engine. It turns out the Latus LMR-002 spring can not be used with the Axtel valve because the Axtel valve is designed to work differently than the OEM valve that the LMR spring does help. When I first spoke with Mr. Baisley we discussed both units and I suppose I assumed they worked together. When I received my parts from him the spring and valve were packaged together and included a service sheet describing the benefits and installation instructions. The only thing I noticed about the valve was the seat profile was different so I thought some dimensional work made the difference. As it turns out, the valve is provided by Baisley Performance (not Axtel) when you buy the spring set and it is carefully reground to give a better seal on the seat.

Again, .... the 2 devices are separate entities and do not integrate with each other. I have the LMR-002 spring and an OEM valve spool that Baisley Performance polishes and regrinds the seat on to ensure a quality operating set. The Axtel system is different and as said previously has a much weaker spring because it operates using a pilot hole for bypassing oil. My apologies for any confusion I have caused.  :embarrassed:

I am waiting for a further conversation with Mr Baisley and if I am still misguided in my understanding I will further correct my information. 

I also want to thank Ohio HD for contacting me with the information that sent me on my quest for the right information

No worries at all here Kirk. The guys at Zippers brought it to my attention this afternoon, and I just wanted to let you know what they had told me. They're a pretty good group at Zippers.
For the best deal on bike parts, call Calif Phil
     www.harleypartscheap.com

Offline kd

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5712
  • Country: ca
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2018, 05:47:37 PM »
Well they were absolutely right on the money. I called and spoke with Ryan (Dan Baisleys son). He just called back and he confirmed what parts I received from them. I received the LMR-002 spring and a Baisley modified OEM relief valve spool. He then shared with me the modification they do to the OEM relief valve.

He also described the Axtel valve and it did then remind me of previous conversations on HTT (and I think some sketches) about it. It has a port drilled through the centerline of the spool that is controlled with an internal needle valve type of system on a triangular spindle to allow oil past, that has a very light spring seating it. The spool spring is a small diameter OEM strength(ish) spring not meant to outperform the OEM unit. The purpose of the Axtel valve is to discharge the bypass initial bleed oil immediately and directly into the cam chest to be fed to the sump and oil return system. The goal of this system as I  understand it, is to reduce air contamination of the oil, heat from re-circulation etc, and subsequent issues caused by that.

So you can see they have different purposes, both I suspect useful. I will still say that I am pleased with the constant oil pressure level that I get from the LMR spring and the Baisley modified relief valve when compared to what I had previous with the OEM system it replaces.   
KD

Offline stogieluvr60

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 367
  • Country: us
  • Treat others as you would have yourself be treated
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #37 on: February 08, 2018, 09:14:19 AM »
IMPORTANT UPDATE   

 :oops:  Ohio HD and I have just had a short discussion by PM that caused me to call Bailey Performance and confirm what I have in my engine. It turns out the Latus LMR-002 spring can not be used with the Axtel valve because the Axtel valve is designed to work differently than the OEM valve that the LMR spring does help. When I first spoke with Mr. Baisley we discussed both units and I suppose I assumed they worked together. When I received my parts from him the spring and valve were packaged together and included a service sheet describing the benefits and installation instructions. The only thing I noticed about the valve was the seat profile was different so I thought some dimensional work made the difference. As it turns out, the valve is provided by Baisley Performance (not Axtel) when you buy the spring set and it is carefully reground to give a better seal on the seat.

Again, .... the 2 devices are separate entities and do not integrate with each other. I have the LMR-002 spring and an OEM valve spool that Baisley Performance polishes and regrinds the seat on to ensure a quality operating set. The Axtel system is different and as said previously has a much weaker spring because it operates using a pilot hole for bypassing oil. My apologies for any confusion I have caused.  :embarrassed:

I am waiting for a further conversation with Mr Baisley and if I am still misguided in my understanding I will further correct my information. 

I also want to thank Ohio HD for contacting me with the information that sent me on my quest for the right information

No worries at all here Kirk. The guys at Zippers brought it to my attention this afternoon, and I just wanted to let you know what they had told me. They're a pretty good group at Zippers.
They are indeed a good group of folks at Zippers...they helped me out with a head issue. They gave us a tour of their facility when we were there last year...quite a place!

Offline Thermodyne

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 301
  • Country: us
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #38 on: February 08, 2018, 10:51:04 AM »
I have the Axtel bypass valve and Baisley LMR2 spring together. I have real good oil pressure when hot, which to me translates into real good flow to all of the needy parts. I don't see it as snake oil when it was recommended by Dan Baisley (for high output engines) when I asked him if he felt I should have / do anything else / other than the build recipe I shared with him. It was a locost add-on.

I'd like to hear how you managed that.

Offline kd

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5712
  • Country: ca
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #39 on: February 08, 2018, 11:11:37 AM »
I have the Axtel bypass valve and Baisley LMR2 spring together. I have real good oil pressure when hot, which to me translates into real good flow to all of the needy parts. I don't see it as snake oil when it was recommended by Dan Baisley (for high output engines) when I asked him if he felt I should have / do anything else / other than the build recipe I shared with him. It was a locost add-on.

I'd like to hear how you managed that.


I think you failed to read all of the posts following that statement.
KD

Offline Thermodyne

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 301
  • Country: us
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #40 on: February 08, 2018, 11:28:44 AM »
The big advantage to the Axtell bypass valve is where it dumps the oil.  Axtell dumps excess oil to the cam chest.  OEM dumps excess oil back to the intake port on the pump.  It tends to cause a loop where the oil gets aerated in the pump and then cycled back through for another aeration.

I have used the Axtell oil valves in the past and would recommend them for people not replacing the cam plate.  Just be sure to rework that pin hole so as to retain the unit in the port.  Do not trust the location of the hole as being correct.

As for the tensioners, those dual pistons units are to be avoided IMHO.  I'm not in the habit of trashing products in public forums, but these tensions are crap.  Anyone interested can PM me for photos. 

Now about oil pressure.  There is oil pressure through out the system.  Tappets need about 7lbs to function.  And the oil that feeds the tappets, also feed the piston cooler jets.  The jets use a pressure relief valve to turn them off at idle, off at less then 12-15lbs.  This is a function of idle oil pressure.  If you up the idle oil pressure too much, the jets will spray at idle.  And that causes high oil temps when sitting still at idle.  It can also cause some sumping at idle as the oem pumps don't scavenge well at idle.  And if the jets are broken or replace with an valve less aftermarket unit, you can get some tappet noise at idle. 

On the other end, there is oil pressure off idle.  There is no benefit from high oil pressure on an air cooled Twin Cam engine.  Same for it's ancestors.  Anything above 15-20lbs is not needed and anything past 35-38 is a waste.   The pressure is used to build volume, but the internals only need to be wet with oil, with the exception of the tappets.  They need 5-7lbs at any given rpm, 7-12 to make up for the loose tolerance units.  With oil at operating temps you should be making 30-38 pounds of pressure @over 2500 rpm.  Anything above that is wasting power to basically pump oil back into the sump.

And if you have a filter that knocks 4 pounds off of 8 with hot oil, buy a different brand of filter. 

If you are serious about the oil system on your twin cam, take a look at the new Pump from S&S,  Adjustable pressure with a threaded adjustment, and two scavenging stages.  It puts and end to taking what the bypass spring gives you as far as pressure.

   

 

 

Offline Brew61

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 71
  • Country: ca
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #41 on: February 08, 2018, 07:05:19 PM »
IMPORTANT UPDATE   

 :oops:  Ohio HD and I have just had a short discussion by PM that caused me to call Bailey Performance and confirm what I have in my engine. It turns out the Latus LMR-002 spring can not be used with the Axtel valve because the Axtel valve is designed to work differently than the OEM valve that the LMR spring does help. When I first spoke with Mr. Baisley we discussed both units and I suppose I assumed they worked together. When I received my parts from him the spring and valve were packaged together and included a service sheet describing the benefits and installation instructions. The only thing I noticed about the valve was the seat profile was different so I thought some dimensional work made the difference. As it turns out, the valve is provided by Baisley Performance (not Axtel) when you buy the spring set and it is carefully reground to give a better seal on the seat.

Again, .... the 2 devices are separate entities and do not integrate with each other. I have the LMR-002 spring and an OEM valve spool that Baisley Performance polishes and regrinds the seat on to ensure a quality operating set. The Axtel system is different and as said previously has a much weaker spring because it operates using a pilot hole for bypassing oil. My apologies for any confusion I have caused.  :embarrassed:

I am waiting for a further conversation with Mr Baisley and if I am still misguided in my understanding I will further correct my information. 

I also want to thank Ohio HD for contacting me with the information that sent me on my quest for the right information


KD , I thought there was something weird there because when I changed mine out I could see that the Baisley spring was no way going to fit in there along with the Axtel Valve. The spring that came with the Axtel valve is extremely smaller then the Baisley spring.

Bruce

Offline HD Street Performance

  • Premium Vendor
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8740
  • Country: 00
    • HD Street Performance
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2018, 07:44:43 AM »
Why do you need to worry about pumping up a lifter unless the valve train has lost control and is lofting?

Offline itsafatboy

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 819
  • Country: us
  • 2001 116" FLSTFI
Re: Couple Questions
« Reply #43 on: February 18, 2018, 06:09:56 PM »
RR 2 piece cam plate and gear drive  :teeth: the most bullet proof if your run out is ok.