Author Topic: twin cooled 103 to 110 big bore question  (Read 861 times)

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Offline azrider

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twin cooled 103 to 110 big bore question
« on: February 08, 2018, 07:36:46 AM »
I have a 2014 Ultra Limited that currently has:

58 mm TB/AC, 5.3 injectors, CNC ported twin cooled heads, .027 mm hg, hi-comp pistons, hi tensile studs, hi capacity tappets, adjustable tapered push rods, se-259E cams, S&S power tune dual headers and matching race mufflers all tuned with a SEPRT. I am tossing around the idea of installing some 110 (drop in) big bore jugs, hi-comp 110 pistons, offset (1.725:1) rockers, race valve springs, and a .585 cam. I have a similar set up on my 2012 WG only it has 64 mm TB/intake/AC, 6.2 injectors, MVA heads, is a true 103 with hi-comp pistons, and obviously has a different exhaust. The WG runs like a monster.

My question is if there is any conflict going to arise I am unaware of when changing the jugs and pistons from the 103 to the 110 on the twin cooled? I am pretty sure I have seen threads where people have done the 110 big bore on the twin cooled with CNC Ported heads but I want to make sure there is nothing sideways about it.

Offline Tattoo

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Re: twin cooled 103 to 110 big bore question
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2018, 07:41:54 AM »
The 110" cylinder kit will work on twin cooled motors just use the twin cooled head gaskets.
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Offline azrider

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Re: twin cooled 103 to 110 big bore question
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2018, 07:44:12 AM »
Thanks, that is what I was thinking.

Offline Rockout Rocker Products

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Re: twin cooled 103 to 110 big bore question
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2018, 07:35:08 PM »
I have the S&S 110 drop in kit in my '15 Limited with WFOLarry heads... zero issues.
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Offline Tail Ridr

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Re: twin cooled 103 to 110 big bore question
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2018, 02:57:19 AM »
I like what these kits offer over what a stock CVO is...or what it should have been
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Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: twin cooled 103 to 110 big bore question
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2018, 08:15:56 AM »
So what is the calculated compression?

Offline azrider

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Re: twin cooled 103 to 110 big bore question
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2018, 09:52:12 AM »
currently on the 2014 UL static ~ 11.7:1 corrected ~ 10.4:1
« Last Edit: February 09, 2018, 09:58:04 AM by azrider »

Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: twin cooled 103 to 110 big bore question
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2018, 10:41:05 AM »
That is too high don't you think?

Offline azrider

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Re: twin cooled 103 to 110 big bore question
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2018, 01:05:31 PM »
Why would you say that? As long as your not getting pre-detonation and your engine set-up is able to provide the amounts of air/fuel required, and your cam is able to perform within the compression range your running increase in compression = increase in power output.

Offline FXDBI

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Re: twin cooled 103 to 110 big bore question
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2018, 01:37:56 PM »
Why would you say that? As long as your not getting pre-detonation and your engine set-up is able to provide the amounts of air/fuel required, and your cam is able to perform within the compression range your running increase in compression = increase in power output.

Well that's about 225 ccp. That much compression is going to make a lot of heat and need a super tune. Will also be a bitch on a hot day.  Bob

Online sfmichael

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Re: twin cooled 103 to 110 big bore question
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2018, 02:04:03 PM »
definitely can be done but I think I'd build it with flat top pistons and make it easier to tune

even then you'd likely be @ about 205 ccp at sea level - plenty strong

259 cams respond pretty well to compression so with a really good tune you'll be good either way
« Last Edit: February 09, 2018, 02:37:15 PM by sfmichael »
Colorado Springs, CO.

Offline azrider

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Re: twin cooled 103 to 110 big bore question
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2018, 02:17:05 PM »
FXDBI - Those are understandable concerns, however my experience with this particular set up on this particular bike hasn’t produced those issues. Prior to September the bike was run in Phoenix, AZ. I ran the bike hard for long periods (including a Saddle Sore 1000) in 100+ degree temps and it has been very reliable and a lot of fun to ride.

Sfmichael - I have a set of both flat tops and hi-comps for the 110 jugs. Using the current components and just changing to the 110 with hi-comp pistons would put compression at ~12.4:1 and ~ 11:1 corrected. The flat tops would bring it in to ~11.8 and ~9.7 respectively. I might start with the flat tops and go from there.


- Keith
« Last Edit: February 09, 2018, 02:26:24 PM by azrider »

Offline FXDBI

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Re: twin cooled 103 to 110 big bore question
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2018, 04:12:05 PM »
FXDBI - Those are understandable concerns, however my experience with this particular set up on this particular bike hasnít produced those issues. Prior to September the bike was run in Phoenix, AZ. I ran the bike hard for long periods (including a Saddle Sore 1000) in 100+ degree temps and it has been very reliable and a lot of fun to ride.

Sfmichael - I have a set of both flat tops and hi-comps for the 110 jugs. Using the current components and just changing to the 110 with hi-comp pistons would put compression at ~12.4:1 and ~ 11:1 corrected. The flat tops would bring it in to ~11.8 and ~9.7 respectively. I might start with the flat tops and go from there.


- Keith

So is the wideglide a 103 or a 110? What is the ccp on it?  Bob

Offline azrider

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Re: twin cooled 103 to 110 big bore question
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2018, 06:00:36 PM »

So is the wideglide a 103 or a 110? What is the ccp on it?  Bob

Bob -

The WG is a 103. Based on Big Boyz calculator the static compression is ~10.5:1, corrected is ~9.5:1, and CCP is ~200. The corrected is actually probably a little lower since I am running the offset rocker arms which changes the lift of the .585 S&S cam to .611. 

If I run the 110 jugs with hi-comp pistons it looks like the compression would be ~11.2, ~10.1, and 213 CCP. The current set up runs really strong and tries like heck to run away from you, but I think the increase cylinder volume would make much better use of the MVA heads and tb/intake/injector setup. So that is also one of the projects I am going to be doing the next few weeks. I have considered also changing the cams in the glide, but not sure what I would drop in to replace the current ones.
-Keith

Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: twin cooled 103 to 110 big bore question
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2018, 07:37:53 AM »
Why would you say that? As long as your not getting pre-detonation and your engine set-up is able to provide the amounts of air/fuel required, and your cam is able to perform within the compression range your running increase in compression = increase in power output.

Not exactly
Octane is the constraint. Ambient heat adds to the problem and raises the octane requirement. Once the octane requirement is not met the motor needs to have the timing retarded to compensate and stop detonation. At the point where this happens the engine is not happy and all of that potential horsepower is lost. Now you have a sluggish hot running engine.

Offline azrider

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Re: twin cooled 103 to 110 big bore question
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2018, 05:16:45 PM »
That is true which is why the caveat of no predestination. Like I said I have been running this set up in Phoenix without any problems.

Offline HighLiner

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Re: twin cooled 103 to 110 big bore question
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2018, 07:41:06 PM »
Are all 110 pistons compatible with the bolt on cylinders?

Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: twin cooled 103 to 110 big bore question
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2018, 06:56:29 AM »
Compatible yes but fit right, would have to measure to determine that.

Offline BVHOG

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Re: twin cooled 103 to 110 big bore question
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2018, 09:32:13 AM »
Why would you say that? As long as your not getting pre-detonation and your engine set-up is able to provide the amounts of air/fuel required, and your cam is able to perform within the compression range your running increase in compression = increase in power output.

Not exactly
Octane is the constraint. Ambient heat adds to the problem and raises the octane requirement. Once the octane requirement is not met the motor needs to have the timing retarded to compensate and stop detonation. At the point where this happens the engine is not happy and all of that potential horsepower is lost. Now you have a sluggish hot running engine.

You just described the MOCO stage 4 kit with the SE 259e cams, lol
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Offline N-gin

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Re: twin cooled 103 to 110 big bore question
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2018, 08:51:27 PM »
I have a 2014 Ultra Limited that currently has:

58 mm TB/AC, 5.3 injectors, CNC ported twin cooled heads, .027 mm hg, hi-comp pistons, hi tensile studs, hi capacity tappets, adjustable tapered push rods, se-259E cams, S&S power tune dual headers and matching race mufflers all tuned with a SEPRT. I am tossing around the idea of installing some 110 (drop in) big bore jugs, hi-comp 110 pistons, offset (1.725:1) rockers, race valve springs, and a .585 cam. I have a similar set up on my 2012 WG only it has 64 mm TB/intake/AC, 6.2 injectors, MVA heads, is a true 103 with hi-comp pistons, and obviously has a different exhaust. The WG runs like a monster.

My question is if there is any conflict going to arise I am unaware of when changing the jugs and pistons from the 103 to the 110 on the twin cooled? I am pretty sure I have seen threads where people have done the 110 big bore on the twin cooled with CNC Ported heads but I want to make sure there is nothing sideways about it.

 :pop:

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Offline joe_lyons

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Re: twin cooled 103 to 110 big bore question
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2018, 06:16:37 AM »
I have a 2014 Ultra Limited that currently has:

58 mm TB/AC, 5.3 injectors, CNC ported twin cooled heads, .027 mm hg, hi-comp pistons, hi tensile studs, hi capacity tappets, adjustable tapered push rods, se-259E cams, S&S power tune dual headers and matching race mufflers all tuned with a SEPRT. I am tossing around the idea of installing some 110 (drop in) big bore jugs, hi-comp 110 pistons, offset (1.725:1) rockers, race valve springs, and a .585 cam. I have a similar set up on my 2012 WG only it has 64 mm TB/intake/AC, 6.2 injectors, MVA heads, is a true 103 with hi-comp pistons, and obviously has a different exhaust. The WG runs like a monster.

My question is if there is any conflict going to arise I am unaware of when changing the jugs and pistons from the 103 to the 110 on the twin cooled? I am pretty sure I have seen threads where people have done the 110 big bore on the twin cooled with CNC Ported heads but I want to make sure there is nothing sideways about it.

Because of the different shaped combustion chamber of the twin cooled head I don't know if it's going to be easy to find Dome pistons in the 110 set up.  I wouldn't worry about getting the S&S 585 as I have ran the 259E's and had extremely good luck with them, they just like being squeezed anywhere between 10 and a half and 11.

On a side note are you still using the stock Harley coolant or if you switch to something better?  Every bike that I had with twin-cooled set up I switched over to the any make any model coolant with Redline water wetter and had excellent results.
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Offline Clayton24

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Re: twin cooled 103 to 110 big bore question
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2018, 07:02:30 AM »
At what ratio should the water wetter be used ?

Offline Bigbluff

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Re: twin cooled 103 to 110 big bore question
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2018, 08:39:49 AM »
On a side note are you still using the stock Harley coolant or if you switch to something better?  Every bike that I had with twin-cooled set up I switched over to the any make any model coolant with Redline water wetter and had excellent results.

Joe, please talk about this more. As you know I traded off the '09 Ultra that you had done so much work for me on for a '14 Ultra Limited with the wet heads. I'm not sure I want to do any building on it...I'm really pretty happy with the way it runs in stock form. But I have had a friend with one have a water pump failure during a long trip, last Summer, and so I'm wondering what can be done to improve the reliability of the cooling system.

Please forgive me if I'm hijacking the thread, but it would seem that this is a good subject to be included when messing with the wethead bikes.
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