Author Topic: Jets EV27  (Read 1280 times)

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Offline Prostock

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Jets EV27
« on: February 08, 2018, 04:03:17 PM »
Jet size recommendations for a stock 1995 fatboy with an Andrews EV27 cam.  Stock carb, true dual pipes.   Ridden from 1500 to 4000 elevation in Arizona. THX

Scot

Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2018, 05:01:19 PM »
46 pilot (drag specialties) stock needle and main. 1 shim #6 under needle, adjust the idle screw for smoothest idle from a lean drop off

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2018, 02:47:57 PM »
IMHO
You and everyone is guessing until you install an AFR gauge.
I have said it a 100 times and will a 10000 more, it is the best tool I have on my bike .
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline Deye76

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2018, 04:38:09 PM »
IMHO thumper, you can post, but HD Street Performance actually does work, for many here, myself included. He gave a damn good starting point, and maybe a final point. Not everyone needs/wants a AFR gauge for a mild street bike.
East Tenn.
2014 CVO RK, 2015 RGS, 1992 FXRP

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2018, 04:43:00 PM »
To each their own-
I will tell you this, I thought I could read plugs -you know pull in the clutch at whatever RPM I am checking, hit the kill switch, and pull the plugs.
My best guess was sometimes right according to the AFR meter, my best guess was usually a million miles off.
So, my opinion is without AFR,  it is a hipshot guess.
And why try?
The tool is available at a very reasonable cost.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2018, 05:08:48 PM »
To each their own-
I will tell you this, I thought I could read plugs -you know pull in the clutch at whatever RPM I am checking, hit the kill switch, and pull the plugs.
My best guess was sometimes right according to the AFR meter, my best guess was usually a million miles off.
So, my opinion is without AFR,  it is a hipshot guess.
And why try?
The tool is available at a very reasonable cost.

Another way to look at it is a gauge is a good tool that allows anyone regardless of skill level to read AFR.

Offline JW113

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2018, 06:21:55 PM »
My goodness, how the hell did we ever manage to tune engines before the advent of the AFR gauge?
 :hyst:

I wonder if Burt Munro used one to set that land speed record?
 :scratch:

And then, there is the cookbook method. How many Evo Fatboys were made? How many with basically stock motor with EV-27 cam? Gonna guess a few thousand, maybe more. And what was used to jet them? (ask the guys that did it, they know)

The thing I love about klunky old carburetors over fuel infection is that it's not rocket science. Get it close, and day to day the bike runs just fine if not great.

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2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
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Offline hdbikedoc

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2018, 06:43:16 PM »
 :up:  :agree:  afr meter wow front sitting at 14.6  rear at 13.5  now what with a single carb this  is what you get
no computer adjustment front and rear   not saying they are not a good tool but ton's of people for years and years did fine without them
Keep your feet on the pegs and your right hand cranked

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2018, 08:34:42 PM »
You will not ever see the whole dynamic picture without one.
Its one thing to get a static plug check and be in the ballpark of whatever RPM you just checked.
But with AFR one can see the whole pic all through the RPM range.
Not to mention the time spent doing plug checks!
Now ask yourself,- what does a dyno person use?
A guess?
For the money, he better dam well have all the equipment!
Next- just cause you had no way to do it with accuracy B4  without a meter,
 should that mean continue on that road?
We used to use a contraption to see in the cylinders whilst running,
 I am grateful for the wideband.
Carry on, be cavemen.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline kd

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2018, 08:49:35 PM »
Today's gas makes it hard to read plugs.  :nix: Everything looks lean until it's too rich.  :idunno:
KD

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2018, 08:58:29 PM »
Yep, and that's is the other point.
Glad you mentioned it.
I am not going to waste my time  trying  to convince people
that other tools have been invented since the crescent wrench.
The minute one adds an AFR gauge to the cockpit,  they get a big smile on their face!
Plus it is an excellent on board diagnostic tool .
They can actually see what is going on at 30MPH or a 100 MPH.!!
Can they Do that the caveman way?
Keep guessing folks, that's why the endless questions about which jet to use.
Carry on.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline turboprop

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2018, 02:44:23 AM »
In regards to the AFR gauge. I have a couple of them that I use. Like most, I too thought I could tune a carb. The first time I rode my bike with my new AFR gauge installed told me otherwise. Even the simple idle mixture screw was off. The difference between 11.5 and 13.5 is less than ¼ turn on the screw. Many of my friends with carb'd bikes have taken my $100 challenge, i.e. I drill and weld in a bung for the sensor, hook up the gauge and see what is going on. If everything is as close as it can get, I give them $100, if not, they give me $100. Even bikes that have been tuned n the dyno (WOT pulls) are almost always off when ridden on the street. Its an invaluable tool IME. My red/white FXR is on the RB Racing website, top of the AFR meter page.
'The Thread Killer' - Worn with pride.

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2018, 03:07:41 AM »
May I add-
As soon as one subscribes to performance mods as in cams, higher CR ,
 different cut chambers, ETC, the AFR unit is one boatload of help!
 The AFR unit will get it done in a hurry!
Without it, one is messing with the tune forever.
You cant see the lean spots, whereas I can.
You can see the fat spots NOW.
With performance mods most cannot run, maybe none run at stoichiometric.(14.5)
AFAIK most dyno rooms will leave a performance bike on the anemic side,
 Not a good place to hang out ..well. you will hang holes in pistons.
I have in my opinion a performance engine.
I can cruise dwn the road and always be aware if has decided to suck air and save myself a lot of grief.
The AFR is live, not some pull on a dyno, but real in the real world it lives in.
I dont have to trust someone else work which is good, as i have NOT trusted any one else to do the work on my bike either!
I know where it is running fat,  and I  need it there..no guessing required.
So you experts that poo poo this tool have denied yourself a large treat!
 You can blither on all you want about your tuning by plugs, however, I will bet you are so wrong.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline Deye76

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2018, 04:55:26 AM »
I have nothing against a AFR gauge, but with a CV carb and a EV27 cam it's not a deal breaker if you don't have one. There's only so much you can do to a stock CV carb, or need to. 150hp motor, different story> Waaay different carb.
East Tenn.
2014 CVO RK, 2015 RGS, 1992 FXRP

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2018, 07:05:47 AM »
There are at least 5 different things that can be changed in a CV.
That is at a minimum.
I will take a CV over a Muk anytime.
The next point- these bikes are getting old- who knows what the last guy did?
The carbs are getting old, how does one know if they are even working somewhere near right?
The AFR meter will tell you right now!
That CV is my preference as I do long runs over big mountain passes and low
places.
They are absolutely simple and very adjustable.
Carry on .
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline Deye76

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2018, 07:49:07 AM »
Not arguing that a CV is good or not. The EV27, 80 cu. in. Evo, CV, dual exhaust w/tapered muffs combination has been around for 25+ years, the receipe, developed 10's of thousands of times isn't a secret.   
East Tenn.
2014 CVO RK, 2015 RGS, 1992 FXRP

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2018, 07:01:02 AM »
It is fun watching guys that upgraded from the “seat of the pants/plug reading” method of tuning to the “seat of the pants/AFR gauge” method of tuning try to explain how much more can be done with a simple gauge that reads real time info. They just cannot understand how anyone would not see and understand the clear advantages. Then, they themselves turn around and have the opposite side of the debate with a guy that tries to teach them the infinite advantages of quality dyno tuning.

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2018, 07:05:41 AM »
where is, and who are you presenting this argument with or to?
Most people have a very big misunderstanding what a dyno is or does.
Then again there are a lot of dyno operators that might be better off doing something else.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline pan620

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2018, 07:36:08 AM »
Nice discussion, So what ARF guage do you use thumper 823, and where do you think the best place is to install it? Thanks

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2018, 07:51:29 AM »
I use the AEM , off amazon.
Its diabolically fast !  No slow-motion reading.
Change something and the AFR will change instantly.
The tricky part is getting the bung in the best place and a little out of sight.
Mine is in the front tube, at the turn about 9 inches dwn, on the inside near the frame.
 Everyone in the universe always has said the front cylinder will always be slightly leaner than the rear hence I used the front.
I guess if one wanted to get really tricky you could mount two,
 or perhaps one that you can flip a switch and read the rear.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2018, 12:04:20 PM »
I use the AEM , off amazon.
Its diabolically fast !  No slow-motion reading.
Change something and the AFR will change instantly.
The tricky part is getting the bung in the best place and a little out of sight.
Mine is in the front tube, at the turn about 9 inches dwn, on the inside near the frame.
 Everyone in the universe always has said the front cylinder will always be slightly leaner than the rear hence I used the front.
I guess if one wanted to get really tricky you could mount two,
 or perhaps one that you can flip a switch and read the rear.

So you have never sampled the rear cylinder, you sample only the front?

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2018, 12:07:25 PM »
Nope.
If the rear runs richer and the front runs leaner ...
There is not a dam thing i can do except make sure the front is not the lean one.
If one wishes to put in an extra bung, they  could swap the sensor around from time to time.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline Burnout

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2018, 12:18:53 PM »
Or get a dual channel wide band like the one Daytona Twin Tech sells.

http://www.daytona-twintec.com/WEGO3.html

They don't call me Ironhead Rick just because I'm "hard headed"

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2018, 12:33:26 PM »
Nope.
If the rear runs richer and the front runs leaner ...
There is not a dam thing i can do except make sure the front is not the lean one.
If one wishes to put in an extra bung, they  could swap the sensor around from time to time.

That's a big if

Offline turboprop

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2018, 01:10:21 PM »
Nope.
If the rear runs richer and the front runs leaner ...
There is not a dam thing i can do except make sure the front is not the lean one.
If one wishes to put in an extra bung, they  could swap the sensor around from time to time.

That's a big if

No its not.  Every tuner knows the rear cylinder needs less fuel as it is plain as day in the fuel tables. Bikes with carbs are no different in that regards.
'The Thread Killer' - Worn with pride.

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2018, 02:31:13 PM »
Nope.
If the rear runs richer and the front runs leaner ...
There is not a dam thing i can do except make sure the front is not the lean one.
If one wishes to put in an extra bung, they  could swap the sensor around from time to time.

That's a big if

No its not.  Every tuner knows the rear cylinder needs less fuel as it is plain as day in the fuel tables. Bikes with carbs are no different in that regards.

I understand it says that in all the books because of the design of the engine but in real life things like exhaust design, head flow, and individual cylinder compression also play into tuning.

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2018, 02:51:35 PM »
Quote from Turbo prop-"No its not.  Every tuner knows the rear cylinder needs less fuel as it is plain as day in the fuel tables. Bikes with carbs are no different in that regards."
end q


Yea and everyone knows this, and that  is just another way of saying it--...
I had this discussion one time in another life
yes, the rear runs richer so it would need less fuel.
The Caveat is the front runs leaner.
Now what ya going to do?
Try to aim the carb for optimum?
Run two carbs?
Switch to fuel infection?
I am happy where I am at..untill next spring anyway when i get the heads back on .
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline turboprop

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2018, 02:56:58 PM »
Nope.
If the rear runs richer and the front runs leaner ...
There is not a dam thing i can do except make sure the front is not the lean one.
If one wishes to put in an extra bung, they  could swap the sensor around from time to time.

That's a big if

No its not.  Every tuner knows the rear cylinder needs less fuel as it is plain as day in the fuel tables. Bikes with carbs are no different in that regards.

I understand it says that in all the books because of the design of the engine but in real life things like exhaust design, head flow, and individual cylinder compression also play into tuning.

Regardless of any of those things, an air cooled harley, the rear cylinder will always run richer or need less fuel than the front. Always. Thats from experience, not read online.
'The Thread Killer' - Worn with pride.

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2018, 03:01:35 PM »
Nope.
If the rear runs richer and the front runs leaner ...
There is not a dam thing i can do except make sure the front is not the lean one.
If one wishes to put in an extra bung, they  could swap the sensor around from time to time.

That's a big if

No its not.  Every tuner knows the rear cylinder needs less fuel as it is plain as day in the fuel tables. Bikes with carbs are no different in that regards.

I understand it says that in all the books because of the design of the engine but in real life things like exhaust design, head flow, and individual cylinder compression also play into tuning.

I have yet to find another bike running around with a AFR gauge in it, much less a way to monitor both cylinders.
My point is, i watch mine every trip, not just once on a dyno..then there are as the original argument- those that dont need one at all !
( I laugh)
I have not bought a dyno yet,  so those here that are all of a sudden experts please tell me the common number the rear is off by .02?  or a whole point?
I will run mine on a dyno this Spring, will they monitor both cylinders?
How will the do that with just one bung?
how do they know anythig when most bikes have none?
Or two into one and no bungs,
or
 Two exhaust pipes , how would a dyno guy know?
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2018, 03:03:24 PM »
Nope.
If the rear runs richer and the front runs leaner ...
There is not a dam thing i can do except make sure the front is not the lean one.
If one wishes to put in an extra bung, they  could swap the sensor around from time to time.

That's a big if

No its not.  Every tuner knows the rear cylinder needs less fuel as it is plain as day in the fuel tables. Bikes with carbs are no different in that regards.

I understand it says that in all the books because of the design of the engine but in real life things like exhaust design, head flow, and individual cylinder compression also play into tuning.

Regardless of any of those things, an air cooled harley, the rear cylinder will always run richer or need less fuel than the front. Always. Thats from experience, not read online.
And that is what i stated.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Online shovelbill

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2018, 03:07:45 PM »
Quote from Turbo prop-"No its not.  Every tuner knows the rear cylinder needs less fuel as it is plain as day in the fuel tables. Bikes with carbs are no different in that regards."
end q


Yea and everyone knows this, and that  is just another way of saying it--...
I had this discussion one time in another life
yes, the rear runs richer so it would need less fuel.
The Caveat is the front runs leaner.
Now what ya going to do?
Try to aim the carb for optimum?
Run two carbs?
Switch to fuel infection?
I am happy where I am at..untill next spring anyway when i get the heads back on .

ACTUALLY YEA.....MACHINE THE INTAKE FLANGE 3* TOWARD THE FRONT......I'VE ALSO RAN REAR CYLINDER COMPRESSION ABOUT 1/4 POINT HIGHER COMPRESSION.....SMOOTHED THE MOTOR OUT......HEAD TEMPS EQUALIZED.

sorry for the caps.....i didn't know the cap button was on and wasn't gonna re-type this.

hope this gives a little different point of perspective.
build it, bust it.....figure out why

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2018, 03:11:29 PM »
what was the difference between front and rear B4 you did this?
At what throttle setting?
Or, was it linear?
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline Evo160K

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2018, 03:49:09 PM »
Quote from thumper 823:
I have yet to find another bike running around with a AFR gauge in it, much less a way to monitor both cylinders.
My point is, i watch mine every trip, not just once on a dyno..then there are as the original argument- those that dont need one at all !
( I laugh)
How will the do that with just one bung?
how do they know anythig when most bikes have none?
Or two into one and no bungs,
or
 Two exhaust pipes , how would a dyno guy know?
[/quote]


I do it with a Dual Throat carb on an Individual runner intake manifold with dual bungs and dual afr gauges.  Let's me adjust the afr for power or economy on the fly.  Very entertaining




Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2018, 04:04:16 PM »
Nope.
If the rear runs richer and the front runs leaner ...
There is not a dam thing i can do except make sure the front is not the lean one.
If one wishes to put in an extra bung, they  could swap the sensor around from time to time.

That's a big if

No its not.  Every tuner knows the rear cylinder needs less fuel as it is plain as day in the fuel tables. Bikes with carbs are no different in that regards.

I understand it says that in all the books because of the design of the engine but in real life things like exhaust design, head flow, and individual cylinder compression also play into tuning.

Regardless of any of those things, an air cooled harley, the rear cylinder will always run richer or need less fuel than the front. Always. Thats from experience, not read online.
And that is what i stated.

Ever been to the HD dealer and hear them tell a customer "they all do that"
I realize if all you have ever seen is all you go by then you could get that attitude.
But if you always do what you have always done, you will always get what you always got.
I have seen first hand that they do not all run richer on the rear. I will not try to change your minds.
Good day and good luck

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2018, 04:14:41 PM »
I am still waiting for the answer -what is the difference in AFR from the front to the rear??
Yes i know the rear runs richer.
Or you can say the front runs leaner.
That is why I always have paid more atn to the front plug or nowadays the front cylinder AFR.

D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2018, 04:18:19 PM »
Quote from thumper 823:
I have yet to find another bike running around with a AFR gauge in it, much less a way to monitor both cylinders.
My point is, i watch mine every trip, not just once on a dyno..then there are as the original argument- those that dont need one at all !
( I laugh)
How will the do that with just one bung?
how do they know anythig when most bikes have none?
Or two into one and no bungs,
or
 Two exhaust pipes , how would a dyno guy know?
[/color]

I do it with a Dual Throat carb on an Individual runner intake manifold with dual bungs and dual afr gauges.  Let's me adjust the afr for power or economy on the fly.  Very entertaining
[/quote]
99.9 % of the population does not have that nor wants it.
So dialing in a rear cylinder is not the most economical to do for most people.
I will bet mine is less then a 1/2 a point from the front
What are you getting for TQ and HP for that configuration? (and size engine?)
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline Deye76

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2018, 04:18:33 PM »
"Now what ya going to do?
Try to aim the carb for optimum?
Run two carbs?"

My point. Answering the original post like Don did, with a CV carb, somewhat limited. Absolutely nothing to do with a dual throat carb. Sheesh, riding is supposed to be fun.  :chop:
East Tenn.
2014 CVO RK, 2015 RGS, 1992 FXRP

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2018, 04:25:37 PM »
I ride about 1oK per year, Sturgis every other , yes I have some fun.
My top end is pretty much on the edge and I prey to get 20K out of it . (valves mostly)
But back to the mainstay of main jets here -
There will always be backyard hoodlums that still talk about "plug checks"
Most when quizzed do not really know how to do that either.
They are not smokey Yunicks
Neither am I, that is why I have the AFR meter.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline Deye76

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #38 on: February 11, 2018, 04:32:20 PM »
If we're going to tell about our experiences, I put a over 90,000 miles in 4 years, on my 1988 Electraglide Sport, in elevations from Michigan to Banff and Lake Louise and all the mountain ranges in the USA in between, on a stock Kehin carb, no AFR gauge, not a hiccup, still going strong when the bike got stolen in 1992.
Edit: Would it have won a dyno shootout, no, didn't care.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 04:42:46 PM by Deye76 »
East Tenn.
2014 CVO RK, 2015 RGS, 1992 FXRP

Offline Evo160K

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #39 on: February 11, 2018, 04:55:54 PM »
97"
Here's what the previous 97" was doing, I think the current 97" (S&S case and lower end) is a bit stronger.  99.9% of the population never had the patience to tune the Weber's and Dellortos when they were popular some years back, but they're awesome looking and running carbs when they're tuned.  The af gauges have made that possible.

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Offline thumper 823

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2018, 05:07:24 PM »
Those are nice numbers.
 i thought the problem with twin carbs and or barrels is the port velocity is not shared very well or at all ?
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Offline Evo160K

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #41 on: February 11, 2018, 06:25:43 PM »
@ thumper 823,
Thank you.
Since the flow with an individual runner manifold is separate, there is no sharing of port velocity.  I have no experience with shared flow manifolds, so I can't comment on shared port velocity other than to say, I suspect you're comment is correct .

@ Prostock,
When I was running a cv on an 80", I used a 46 pilot jet with a slightly sanded needle, which is like shimming, and adjusted for smoothest idle.  That more or less is exactly what H.D Street performance is suggesting.  Btw, iirc, joe minton, the motojournalist/h-d wrench, used to say he never saw an evo that needed anything but a 46 when set-up properly.  Someone chime in if my recollection of his comment is incorrect.

Offline JW113

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #42 on: February 11, 2018, 08:39:38 PM »
Are you saying it is 'better' that the two cylinders share a manifold and carb? That sure is not how virtually ever other motorcycle in the world except HD is set up, now is it? Even in HD land, the XR750 and XR1000 uses two carbs and no shared manifold, and they're supposed to be the 'performance' Harley Davidsons.

There is more to tuning without an AFR meter than just looking at the plugs. Full throttle pulls with back off, monitoring fuel mileage, sound of exhaust note during deaccel, RPM drop with idle needle jet, color of the exhaust pipe outlets, among others. I'll say it again, get it close enough to get the job done, then ride it and don't worry. It's like tire pressure. I'm sure you can rig your tires up so you can read the pressure while riding the bike, and I'm sure there is some "optimum" tire pressure. Speaking for me only, ain't that concerned. Bike seems to work just fine somewhere between 34 and 40psi, and I can't even tell they're low until they get below 30.

RE: 46 pilot jet. Never used one, only 45 or 48. The idle needle can correct if the 45 is not rich enough. Which for a mostly stock motor, 45 pilot works great.

-JW
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Offline thumper 823

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #43 on: February 12, 2018, 01:10:34 AM »
Ok folks -I am not the internet king and almost know nothing and i can prove it most the time.
What I do know is from the Porsche world where we raced and hung out on dynos and blah blah.
 -and some went to the wine and cheese tasting farms afterward..LOL
That all said -
A  HD engine is just like a Porsche engine only different. 
A LOT different.
Double carbs (ONNE PER CYLINDER )as I know them will work, but only at the RPM that racers use , where port velocity hits the sound barrier.
Notice you see them on old race cars and Porsche, one per cylinder. (read high RPM )
Even today they (carbs) are the Holy Grail for the old 911 folks.They call it backdating.
The Old HD engine is entering the hand grenade zone where these will start to perform.
The little (well not so little but smaller ) XR used them on the track.
Notice the smaller stroke? (higher velocity)
Some even had their heads turned around or backward, I cant remember, and not going to look it all up, but I  "seen" one once, so I am an expert.........LOL
The Nippondenso Jap bikes are a short stroke, again velocity.   Hence lots of carbs. 12000 RPM is an idle almost...(Ok, thats an illustration.)
'Snowmobiles until the advent of Fuel infection-again carbs.
So for me, the demarcation is real life-
I ride two up, heavy and want all the Torq I can get ...NOW.
I love blowing past bigger bikes!
I know I have the little Evo stressed to the edge and willing to eat the consequences, should she blow.
(AND SHE HAS IN THE PAST)
I do my own head work, and steal ideas as fast as I can. But the twin-carb thing - I am not a believer for my kind of riding.

Also- one has to qualify what works for most- as far as jets
My little engine is pulled dwn tight 10.5-1  double plug, ported, tiny guides.Lots of valve angles,
.o30 angled squish, re shaped combustion chamber with domed pistons.
It is an ongoing creation and I change it most ever winter.
Living on the edge takes up less room.



« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 01:22:22 AM by thumper 823 »
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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #44 on: February 12, 2018, 03:52:15 AM »
My goodness, how the hell did we ever manage to tune engines before the advent of the AFR gauge?
 :hyst:

I wonder if Burt Munro used one to set that land speed record?
 :scratch:

And then, there is the cookbook method. How many Evo Fatboys were made? How many with basically stock motor with EV-27 cam? Gonna guess a few thousand, maybe more. And what was used to jet them? (ask the guys that did it, they know)

The thing I love about klunky old carburetors over fuel infection is that it's not rocket science. Get it close, and day to day the bike runs just fine if not great.

-JW

Yep.
Otto Knowbetter sez, '"Don't mistake kindness, for weakness".

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #45 on: February 12, 2018, 04:20:00 AM »
Close will not work if you are on the edge ..
Plus the old experts like Smoky Yunick would have been using a AFR meter if he had one.
Carry on.
Live in arrogance or ignorance, pick one.
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Offline JW113

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #46 on: February 12, 2018, 07:17:02 AM »
BINGO!

On the edge? Nope. Either splitting lanes in daily commute, or steady cruise at highway speed.

Yes, close enough.
 :up:

Oh, and about those AFR gauges, particularly the cheapo ones you guys keep referring to. "Gauge R&R".

Speaking of one the edge, which in my book translates to "racing", let me ask a question to any of you drag racers that might be following this thread. Do you tune to a AFR gauge or a stopwatch?

-JW
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Offline thumper 823

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #47 on: February 12, 2018, 08:19:27 AM »
BINGO!

On the edge? Nope. Either splitting lanes in daily commute, or steady cruise at highway speed.

Yes, close enough.
 :up:

Oh, and about those AFR gauges, particularly the cheapo ones you guys keep referring to. "Gauge R&R".

Speaking of one the edge, which in my book translates to "racing", let me ask a question to any of you drag racers that might be following this thread. Do you tune to a AFR gauge or a stopwatch?

-JW

I do not know who, or what is the cheap AFR guage you are referring to, please point me to the one you think is a gooder one.
The wideband uses a bosh sensor and is supposed to be accurate.
i know it is fast !
Correct?
Perhaps share what you know?
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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #48 on: February 12, 2018, 08:59:47 AM »
must be meaning narrow band as opposed to wide band

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #49 on: February 12, 2018, 10:06:05 AM »
Narrowband is worthless and not even part of the equation here.
Not sure why he or anyone would reference them.
The wideband AEM  uses Bosch LSU wide band which reads about 7 times per second I am told.
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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #50 on: February 12, 2018, 10:20:05 AM »
BINGO!

On the edge? Nope. Either splitting lanes in daily commute, or steady cruise at highway speed.

Yes, close enough.
 :up:

Oh, and about those AFR gauges, particularly the cheapo ones you guys keep referring to. "Gauge R&R".

Speaking of one the edge, which in my book translates to "racing", let me ask a question to any of you drag racers that might be following this thread. Do you tune to a AFR gauge or a stopwatch?

-JW

I was involved with an AHDRA Pro Stock team for a few years. Our race pack logged AFR on both cylinders as well as many other things, and yes, we paid very close attention to the AFR.

Years ago, Gregg Krenick, with help from Steve Alsteadt, dominated the AHDRA Pro Mod class. The PM class did not allow any data logging devices. In test and tune, Doug ran a WEGO III to log AFR, RPM and one other input that Steve rigged up. Doug was consistently faster than anyone else in the class. When the AHDRA folded, everyone in the Pro Mod class was doing the same thing.
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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #51 on: February 12, 2018, 01:59:15 PM »
thumper is your AEM setup to display AFR or Lambda? 

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #52 on: February 12, 2018, 02:03:12 PM »
AFR.
I think it can run Lam with a lap top...hard to do on a Road King.
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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #53 on: February 12, 2018, 02:13:40 PM »
looks like the AEM has the capability to display lambra with a different faceplate which would be the preferred method.

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #54 on: February 12, 2018, 03:34:14 PM »
The same information is it not?
Just presented in a different format.
They are using the same Bosch sensor.
It is more EZ to print out Lam on a graph then it is for  AFR.
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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #55 on: February 12, 2018, 04:21:19 PM »
lambra is actual AFR with the fuel used. If you use straight gasoline (14.7 is stoich) and never E10 (14.3 is stoich) its not a problem.

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #56 on: February 12, 2018, 04:23:52 PM »
14.7 stoich = 1.0 lambra, 14.3 stoich is 1.0 lambra

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #57 on: February 12, 2018, 07:00:52 PM »
The same information is it not?
Just presented in a different format.
They are using the same Bosch sensor.
It is more EZ to print out Lam on a graph then it is for  AFR.

Lambra is just a different scale. The FI system that haley uses switched over a few years ago from AFR to lambda. AFR works just fine for the carburated bikes, no advantages to speaking in lambda.
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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #58 on: February 12, 2018, 08:58:01 PM »
Saying lambra is just a different scale is the same as saying a AFR gauge is needed to tune a stock motor with a ev27 cam the op was talking about. Agree it wont make that much difference on a carbureted motor but it is far from the same. If you are running a AFR meter one should know the difference.

Most gauges are calibrated for 14.7 stoich so if you happen to be doing a long haul and stop at station that only offers E10 don't be surprised if your reading are different if you tuned your bike with straight gas.

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Offline turboprop

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #60 on: February 13, 2018, 06:26:44 AM »
Saying lambra is just a different scale is the same as saying a AFR gauge is needed to tune a stock motor with a ev27 cam the op was talking about. Agree it wont make that much difference on a carbureted motor but it is far from the same. If you are running a AFR meter one should know the difference.

Most gauges are calibrated for 14.7 stoich so if you happen to be doing a long haul and stop at station that only offers E10 don't be surprised if your reading are different if you tuned your bike with straight gas.

I dont think anyone said the OP needed an AFR to tune that little engine. The AFR discussion came out as part of the usual thread drift. AFR, Lambda, whatever, its all really the same thing. Its not complicated and most AFR gauges are not calibrated for 14.7 stoich, at none of the three brands in my garage are.

Good grief, this is so reminiscent of when Steve Cole was here.
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Offline thumper 823

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #61 on: February 13, 2018, 08:51:19 AM »
Anyone that has a carb should have a way to dial in the AFR.
lOOK AT HOW MANY POST  BLITHER ON HERE!
The AEM makes it simple.
There is no way to know what is going on with the mix unless you are Superman with X-ray and can see inside to watch for Bunsen Blue

http://www.aemelectronics.com/?q=products/gauges/wideband-uego-air-fuel-gauges/digital-wideband-uego-afr-gauge/digital-wideband-uego-afr-gauge
The higher end meters are wideband say no calibration needed.
Next, most Harley are not  very fond of the 14.7 number, my little machine could never stand it

From their website -
WHAT IS FREE-AIR CALIBRATION?
Some of our competitors require that you frequently perform a free-air calibration procedure to calibrate their O2 sensors. This process involves removing the sensor from the bung while still connected to the controller device, then waving the sensor in the air so it can read atmospheric O2 levels. We use Bosch 4.9 LSU sensors in our wideband controllers. Our sensors are individually laboratory-calibrated by Bosch and never require free air calibration!
End.


I believe that was the old style sniffer? (that needed cal?)
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 08:56:58 AM by thumper 823 »
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Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #62 on: February 13, 2018, 11:07:24 AM »
Saying lambra is just a different scale is the same as saying a AFR gauge is needed to tune a stock motor with a ev27 cam the op was talking about. Agree it wont make that much difference on a carbureted motor but it is far from the same. If you are running a AFR meter one should know the difference.

Most gauges are calibrated for 14.7 stoich so if you happen to be doing a long haul and stop at station that only offers E10 don't be surprised if your reading are different if you tuned your bike with straight gas.

I dont think anyone said the OP needed an AFR to tune that little engine. The AFR discussion came out as part of the usual thread drift. AFR, Lambda, whatever, its all really the same thing. Its not complicated and most AFR gauges are not calibrated for 14.7 stoich, at none of the three brands in my garage are.

Good grief, this is so reminiscent of when Steve Cole was here.
But someone did
Reply #2

IMHO
You and everyone is guessing until you install an AFR gauge.
I have said it a 100 times and will a 10000 more, it is the best tool I have on my bike .
And again in reply#4

To each their own-
I will tell you this, I thought I could read plugs -you know pull in the clutch at whatever RPM I am checking, hit the kill switch, and pull the plugs.
My best guess was sometimes right according to the AFR meter, my best guess was usually a million miles off.
So, my opinion is without AFR,  it is a hipshot guess.
And why try?

The tool is available at a very reasonable cost.

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #63 on: February 13, 2018, 11:23:54 AM »
Keep reading, not talking about free air calibration. A AFR meter is nothing more than a sophisticated volt meter. The sensors send a voltage output, 0-1v narrow band 0-5v wideband hence the wideband is more accurate. The voltage the meter sees is setup to display 14.7 at 1.0 lambra.

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #64 on: February 13, 2018, 11:28:02 AM »
Everyone wants to be an expert or win some internet argument-
I coud care less and freely share what i hve earned and learned.
You all win.
I will try to summarize in one last HOoorah here.
I have been on the planet 65 years and still learning.
One and the BIGGEST mistakes is to presume too much
As I said earlier-i thought I could read plugs and jet a carb.
Whilst ..maybe ...with a purrfect stock engine and stock bike.
Does it even exist?
What did the last guy do to it? :oops:
Presumption is not your friend.
These bikes are freeking old.
The machines are not stock and to dial a higher CR engine without away to read it is is futile with the advent of a better way.
For instance- mine with a very tight squish, ported, ETC will not have the same requirements as the next bike even if it had the same CR.
Its just like it only completely different as they say....LOL
To scream and  rail against this technology and adroitly say you are special and don't need such equipment
makes for the ingredients of arrogance.
To guess is not knowing.
Now I ask you by any metric you wish you address- "What is your AFR at 75MPH?  Compared to 90 MPH ?"
YOU, - can not answer that question that without the tool.
I think I will try to pass on the next jetting discussion..albeit the subject haclkes my hair when I see the droop in the answers.
Rail away, I will pass on the senseless wishful romantic thinking here.
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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #65 on: February 13, 2018, 12:38:07 PM »
I'm not against using one was trying to help fine tune your knowledge on the subject.

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #66 on: February 13, 2018, 01:13:27 PM »
Perhaps this will help ya ?

http://blog.innovatemotorsports.com/lambda-vs.-afr-whats-the-difference
Or perhaps you know everything.
Done here..the idiocy may remain.
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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #67 on: February 13, 2018, 01:42:04 PM »
that article backs up my point  :emoGroan:.

one quote
“The solution to this problem is to simply use Lambda as your unit of measure since this does not change, regardless of the fuel or fuel blend being used,” advises Saez

and yet another
“Lambda has not been widely adopted in the United States and therefor it sounds foreign to most,” sums up Saez

I wonder why Harley switched to using lambra as turboprop stated earlier. Next time your at the pump see if the fuel you have been using contains ethanol.

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #68 on: February 13, 2018, 01:54:35 PM »
I understand your point-
Most here are having a problem with just needing to know any point, plus your point(s).
Trying to fragrantly point this out is getting at least difficult because some of the Cadre come right back on and will tell the other troops not knowing is as good as guessing and that is all ok.

You should at least expound on the  pros and cons and what it means between the two metrics.
Pump gas varies in different areas, here the is no alcohol or meth added to the 91.
This makes for an EZ baseline to draw from for me.
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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #69 on: February 13, 2018, 02:18:52 PM »
For a carbureted bike it wont make much difference as turboprop stated.

some of the stations here cya with a label saying may contain ethanol, how much  :nix:.
http://www.fuel-testers.com/state_guide_ethanol_laws.html

you can check your local station here
https://www.pure-gas.org/extensions/map.html

Harley using lambra now allows the computer to compensate more accurately if a different blend of fuel is used.

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #70 on: February 13, 2018, 02:41:24 PM »
I am now going to get this one to see how wrong I have been...or perhaps how right .


http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16358&cat=0&page=1
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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #71 on: February 13, 2018, 03:00:24 PM »
nice but I would stick with what you have for your application. Did your AEM come with a lambra faceplate, manual says you can switch between AFR and lambra. 

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #72 on: February 13, 2018, 05:58:29 PM »
No-
I am going to the dual set up after all this :
The argument that one cylinder is so far off, that AFR is so inaccurate. (*edit- upon some research, the AEM compensates and translates)
I now want to know the real story.
I am a life learner and right now this argument is raging on several forums at all times..
For me, I want the one real answer.
After all the money I have strewn across this bike and the floor it occupies what is another 400 bucks?
I am moving my ports this season, going to 50 deg cut, and a bunch of other crap.
The little Evo is in an evolution of its namesake with me .
I want the truth.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 07:48:55 PM by thumper 823 »
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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #73 on: February 13, 2018, 07:47:53 PM »
You should pull your plugs and see what they look like first, lol. Report back with your findings, suspect the rear will be rich.

Did your AEM come with a lambda faceplate? The original question I was only after.

Prostock hopefully stopped reading after the first reply to his op.

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #74 on: February 13, 2018, 07:53:38 PM »
It is a jokers folly to look at plugs unless one shuts the engine dwn at load and RPM he is checking.
IE- thats the way we used to do it, run dwn the road at 40, 60 , 90  MPH each time pulling on the clutch and killing the ignition.
Pulling the plugs for a read.
People that try to read plugs after a couple minutes of idling or between lights or in a parking lot are taking off dwn wind with a short piece of real estate!.
It just is a fallacy.
plus today's gas will lie to you.
PS my front and rears are exactly the same , both heads look the same on the inside too.
EXACTLY
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 08:00:08 PM by thumper 823 »
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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #75 on: February 13, 2018, 08:27:39 PM »
I was just joking.  Did your AEM come with a lambda faceplate?

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #76 on: February 13, 2018, 08:31:37 PM »
I cant remember, But I am pretty sure it did, so am probably getting the translation anyway.
At this point, it does not matter
as i am going the dual set up.
I would love to see a pic of your set up.
Please post it?
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Offline speedzter

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #77 on: February 14, 2018, 01:53:39 AM »
You don't need a dual AFR meter, just two ports in your exhaust.


Offline thumper 823

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #78 on: February 14, 2018, 02:02:19 AM »
Pretty sure I will need a 02 in each exhaust pipe to get a correct reading right?
KOOL set up you have!
Is that for fuel infection?
Programmable on the run?
However I do like the permanent gauge setup  I have.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 03:24:51 AM by thumper 823 »
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Offline speedzter

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #79 on: February 14, 2018, 02:53:56 AM »
It's a single channel Innovate LM2 data logging AFR meter.
I use an inductive plug lead clamp to log RPM.
Good old Mikuni 48mm fitted to that bike !
I always tune the front cylinder first, get it close, then move the sensor to the rear.

Offline 98fxstc

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #80 on: February 14, 2018, 03:33:18 AM »
I have the dual channel Innovate LM2
oxygen sensor in each header pipe with inductive pickup for RPM
I thought the single channel was LM1
If you are going to buy one , get the LM2 and two sensors
doing one cylinder only, or one cylinder at a time doesn't make sense

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #81 on: February 14, 2018, 03:33:34 AM »
I have tried two carbs
The CV and HSR.
Everyone brags about the versatility of the HSR-
 It had some issues that were just eating up my schedule for the Sturgis run.
Perhaps I will get back to it.
The CV stays steady and more even, and as I approach the faster speeds it runs fatter where this bike needs it.
I would not ever know this if tunning by cave man plug check.
Going over high MTN passes the carb does compensate.
A livable situation for a wannabee racer and a touring bike all in one.
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Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline speedzter

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #82 on: February 14, 2018, 04:27:35 AM »
I thought the single channel was LM1
doing one cylinder only, or one cylinder at a time doesn't make sense

The LM1 is the older generation. LM2 is available dual or single channel.

Tuning one cylinder at a time is not ideal, but at the price for the dual channel, I'll put up with the inconvenience .
I've used both CV and mechanical slide, I like to be in control of what the slide does, and like
the way they tune.

Offline turboprop

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #83 on: February 14, 2018, 04:30:38 AM »
Curious how one tunes both cylinders of an engine with a single carb?
'The Thread Killer' - Worn with pride.

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #84 on: February 14, 2018, 08:04:12 AM »
Curious how one tunes both cylinders of an engine with a single carb?

I have always said its a waste of time too.
So just to prove I am right or wrong I will find the difference between front and rear.
One person on here said they machined the manifold to aim at the rear and milled more of the rear head .
However, i want to know what the number difference is.
I am betting mine at least is not off enough to screw with.
To date-
Here and other forums
I have asked over and over what their numbers were so as to address this.
I want a pic!
Keep in mind- there are a lot of armchair experts that have not ever done anything but full of advice.
repeating stuff is EZ
We all know the front runs leaner or the rear fatter whichever ..there should be an equal average  .
What is it?
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 08:14:16 AM by thumper 823 »
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Offline Coyote

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #85 on: February 14, 2018, 08:07:40 AM »
Curious how one tunes both cylinders of an engine with a single carb?

Yeah I'd like to understand that as well.
I feel the need... for twisties with speed.

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #86 on: February 14, 2018, 08:27:46 AM »
Curious how one tunes both cylinders of an engine with a single carb?

Yeah I'd like to understand that as well.
that's why I said keep what he has, not likely he would tune his bike with different blends fuels either with a carb. Ill get a pic for you later.

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #87 on: February 14, 2018, 08:33:58 AM »
Curious how one tunes both cylinders of an engine with a single carb?

Yeah I'd like to understand that as well.
that's why I said keep what he has, not likely he would tune his bike with different blends fuels either with a carb. Ill get a pic for you later.

Nothing against ya,or anyone here,  a pic of the difference would be appreciated and the mods you are running too, please.
I have had some forum experts (not just here) tell me i will not ever know what is going on, which is true, but it cant be that far out.
When pressed about their set up,  i have never got an answer what their numbers were or the bungs in the pipes.
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Online ecir50

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #88 on: February 14, 2018, 08:43:14 AM »
Bike is basically stock with a RB Racing pipe that has the bung just in the front pipe, the bung is a few inches below the front flange.   

Offline turboprop

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #89 on: February 14, 2018, 09:38:38 AM »
Curious how one tunes both cylinders of an engine with a single carb?

I have always said its a waste of time too.
So just to prove I am right or wrong I will find the difference between front and rear.
One person on here said they machined the manifold to aim at the rear and milled more of the rear head .
However, i want to know what the number difference is.
I am betting mine at least is not off enough to screw with.
To date-
Here and other forums
I have asked over and over what their numbers were so as to address this.
I want a pic!
Keep in mind- there are a lot of armchair experts that have not ever done anything but full of advice.
repeating stuff is EZ
We all know the front runs leaner or the rear fatter whichever ..there should be an equal average  .
What is it?

What I have seen on my bikes (carbureted) is that the rear cylinder is typically 0.2 - 0.3 richer than the front. On my dual Channel Wego the difference is clearly displayed on the log sheet.

As for the armchair experts, there are too many here that have not done anything but read stuff online and somehow feel empowered to chime in with their 'expert opinions'. It is what it is. I have learned to separate the signal from the noise.
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Online ecir50

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #90 on: February 14, 2018, 09:53:06 AM »
That Dual Channel Wego looks nice especially with the option to log the data with being waterproof a plus.

http://www.daytona-sensors.com/wego--iii---wego--iv---dual-channel-displays.html


Offline turboprop

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #91 on: February 14, 2018, 10:36:21 AM »
It uses the slower 4.2 wide band sensor, but for a carb'd engine, the faster speed is not really useful. I have a tech input hooked up to it, but have given some thought to adding either a sensor for either head or exhaust temp as that would really help with optimizing  the various timing cells.
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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #92 on: February 14, 2018, 10:42:41 AM »
Yes I did notice the 4.2, see no problem there it used to be the go to sensor.

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #93 on: February 14, 2018, 10:44:11 AM »
On carbed bikes I sample both front and rear with a DJ AT-110 module that's hooked to the stack via a can to can cable for on screen monitoring, it works really well.

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #94 on: February 14, 2018, 10:47:39 AM »
That's what I am thinking too.
The rear will be richer but not by a whole number, just a couple tenths
However, after the wrestling contest and with my again revamped heads I will recalibrate the
fire and see what is going on .
My heads are getting welded as I write, The answer will be blowing in the wind for a while, as there is snow on the ground here, and I have lots to do on the evolution  for this season..
I think the NEXT  time this subject comes up I and all of us should say:
"Show a pic of your set up or shut up, and sit in the armchair and bother someone else with all your expert advice!"
That is going to be my mantra as -TOOooooooo many that have done nothing have all the advice.
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Online ecir50

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #95 on: February 14, 2018, 10:54:33 AM »
No sense getting worked up, you have to read between the lines, its a forum and will never be avoidable. Where's your pic lol. 

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #96 on: February 14, 2018, 10:55:13 AM »
On carbed bikes I sample both front and rear with a DJ AT-110 module that's hooked to the stack via a can to can cable for on screen monitoring, it works really well.


 :up: :up:

I just bothered Vic on his lunch hour to send me an example of a carbed bike that he dual sampled on the dyno.

SE air Cleaner
Slip-ons
CCP Fr 200   Re 200
46 Pilot
Needle one shim
Main 180
I do not think you would want to ride this very long sampling just the front cylinder.


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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #97 on: February 14, 2018, 11:00:40 AM »
one should log the bike in real world conditions to get a fair assessment on the rear cylinder.

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #98 on: February 14, 2018, 11:08:11 AM »
One crappy pic I have.


Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #99 on: February 14, 2018, 11:08:41 AM »
No-
I am going to the dual set up after all this :
The argument that one cylinder is so far off, that AFR is so inaccurate. (*edit- upon some research, the AEM compensates and translates)
I now want to know the real story.
I am a life learner and right now this argument is raging on several forums at all times..
For me, I want the one real answer.
After all the money I have strewn across this bike and the floor it occupies what is another 400 bucks?
I am moving my ports this season, going to 50 deg cut, and a bunch of other crap.
The little Evo is in an evolution of its namesake with me .
I want the truth.

This was your best post to date.
If you actually do this you will be better off for it.
Now how are you going to optimize your ignition timing?

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #100 on: February 14, 2018, 11:09:46 AM »
Mine would not ever run that lean on the front.
It would be making nasty sounds under load at low RPM
I dont know much but it would seem to me you are pretty skinny there, Esp if high-dynamic  CR.
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Offline thumper 823

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #101 on: February 14, 2018, 11:11:11 AM »
No-
I am going to the dual set up after all this :
The argument that one cylinder is so far off, that AFR is so inaccurate. (*edit- upon some research, the AEM compensates and translates)
I now want to know the real story.
I am a life learner and right now this argument is raging on several forums at all times..
For me, I want the one real answer.
After all the money I have strewn across this bike and the floor it occupies what is another 400 bucks?
I am moving my ports this season, going to 50 deg cut, and a bunch of other crap.
The little Evo is in an evolution of its namesake with me .
I want the truth.

This was your best post to date.
If you actually do this you will be better off for it.
Now how are you going to optimize your ignition timing?

I run Daytona dual plug T.T.
It pretty flexible
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
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Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #102 on: February 14, 2018, 11:15:36 AM »
No-
I am going to the dual set up after all this :
The argument that one cylinder is so far off, that AFR is so inaccurate. (*edit- upon some research, the AEM compensates and translates)
I now want to know the real story.
I am a life learner and right now this argument is raging on several forums at all times..
For me, I want the one real answer.
After all the money I have strewn across this bike and the floor it occupies what is another 400 bucks?
I am moving my ports this season, going to 50 deg cut, and a bunch of other crap.
The little Evo is in an evolution of its namesake with me .
I want the truth.

This was your best post to date.
If you actually do this you will be better off for it.
Now how are you going to optimize your ignition timing?

I run Daytona dual plug T.T.
It pretty flexible

I agree it is very tunable but How you gonna tune it on the street?
You see there is no bolt on gauge for setting optimum timing.

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #103 on: February 14, 2018, 11:19:46 AM »
Mine would not ever run that lean on the front.
It would be making nasty sounds under load at low RPM
I dont know much but it would seem to me you are pretty skinny there, Esp if high-dynamic  CR.


That was an example of a bike that came in from another shop that does not sample afr on carb bikes. The customer said it ran good but complained it ran hotter after he had it tuned. regardless of the AFR the example was for the difference between front and rear and which was richer.

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #104 on: February 14, 2018, 11:24:45 AM »
1FSTRK

Is this a test?
It been running on the street.
Had 20K on it until the pinion gear let lose, all was ok.  (dam straight cut shaft)
Even so, no damage done well.....slightly bent valves  Cant even tell by eyeball..
I can see a mar on the tops of the pistons..I think I got away with it for once.
So I will sell them on EBAY///..............J.K .! :wink:
It ready for top end anyway as I gear them for a 20K TBO b4 tear dwn.
How are you going to tune yours?
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Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #105 on: February 14, 2018, 11:26:59 AM »
deleted
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Offline thumper 823

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #106 on: February 14, 2018, 11:29:43 AM »
Mine would not ever run that lean on the front.
It would be making nasty sounds under load at low RPM
I dont know much but it would seem to me you are pretty skinny there, Esp if high-dynamic  CR.


That was an example of a bike that came in from another shop that does not sample afr on carb bikes. The customer said it ran good but complained it ran hotter after he had it tuned. regardless of the AFR the example was for the difference between front and rear and which was richer.

It is way too lean for High CR.
i have no clue how it would not be tinkling all over the place.
Must sound like a pop corn machine.
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Offline turboprop

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #107 on: February 14, 2018, 12:22:20 PM »
No sense getting worked up, you have to read between the lines, its a forum and will never be avoidable. Where's your pic lol.

Here is a pic of one of my FXRs with an RB Racing AFR gauge. Despite using a narrow band sensor, this gauge worked very well and was a big help.

As previously discussed, an AFR gauge is not needed for a little 80" with a bolt in cam, but run some ductile cylinders, with a 4-⅝" stroke crank at 11.5 on the street. In this application the AFR gauge shifts from being a toy/gimmick to a much needed tool as it is not uncommon to scuff pistons with ductile cylinders if the tune is off. Unlike an aluminum cylinder, ductile will not expand nearly as much when it is hot and is much less forgiving of tuning issues.



https://www.rbracing-rsr.com/turbo/rsrgauge5.jpg
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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #108 on: February 14, 2018, 12:55:32 PM »
nice, I was wanting to see a pic of thumpers ride.

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #109 on: February 14, 2018, 01:01:57 PM »
Like i said , mine is in pieces.
I have the AEM mounted up on the handlebar near throttle  EZ to read.
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Offline Deye76

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #110 on: February 14, 2018, 04:23:03 PM »
"an AFR gauge is not needed for a little 80" with a bolt in cam,"

What I and JW113 said 4 pages ago.
East Tenn.
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Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #111 on: February 14, 2018, 04:32:48 PM »
"an AFR gauge is not needed for a little 80" with a bolt in cam,"

What I and JW113 said 4 pages ago.

 :up:
Yes but look at all we cover in the meantime.  :wink:

Offline Deye76

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #112 on: February 14, 2018, 04:43:03 PM »
It is winter, isn't it.  :teeth:
East Tenn.
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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #113 on: February 14, 2018, 05:28:32 PM »
84 degree high today here :).

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #114 on: February 14, 2018, 05:47:11 PM »
"an AFR gauge is not needed for a little 80" with a bolt in cam,"

What I and JW113 said 4 pages ago.
You speak with such authority
How do you know if the slide is not worn out?
You are not there.
How is the internet is full of people that know everything?
How do you know his whole freeking carb is even somewhat correct?
Like I said B4 these bikes and carbs are getting old.
The needle may be wrong, clip in the wrong place.
EC ETC ETC
A sure-fire way to "see" is to read the exhaust.
Just because someone is running the anemic 8.5 CR does not mean they could not benefit.
No , they are not in near as much danger as a performance engine, but much can be learned and adjusted.
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Offline speedzter

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #115 on: February 14, 2018, 06:54:02 PM »
It was mentioned as to how you tune both cylinders.
Now I know people here are generally reasonably intelligent, and know it is a compromise on a Carb' bike.
My process - measure the front and adjust jetting to a safe point 13.5 idle, 14 cruise, 13 WOT.
Move the sensor to the rear and measure.
Depending on how the rear is, rejet to make it safe if needed, and repeat over.
You can see up to a point difference between front and rear, and it can be either way depending on the combo.
You need to split the difference, and one will end up a little rich, one a little lean.

Here's a good post I had bookmarked: http://harleytechtalk.com/index.php?topic=8770.0
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 07:05:23 PM by speedzter »

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #116 on: February 14, 2018, 07:06:18 PM »
It was mentioned as to how you tune both cylinders.
Now I know peolpe here are generally reasonably intelligent, and know it is a compromise on a Carb' bike.
My process - measure the front and adjust jetting to a safe point 13.5 idle, 14 cruise, 13 WOT.
Move the sensor to the rear and measure.
Depending on how the rear is, rejet to make it safe if needed, and repeat over.
You can see up to a point difference between front and rear, and it can be either way depending on the combo.
You need to split the difference, and one will end up a little rich, one a little lean.

 :up: :up:
Here is a man that has tuned street bikes on the street.
Many times one cylinder is on the verge of too lean when the other is on the verge of too rich.
Early stock heads are the worst for doing this followed by some of the poor choices in exhausts.

Offline Burnout

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #117 on: February 15, 2018, 07:23:38 AM »

Early stock heads are the worst for doing this followed by some of the poor choices in exhausts.

I will venture to say 95% of the AM exhaust systems are junk regarding the balance F to R.
The worst exhaust in creation is found on the baggers!
The VE difference of the two cylinders changes depending on RPM. It goes from bad, to really bad, then only half bad.
They don't call me Ironhead Rick just because I'm "hard headed"

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #118 on: February 15, 2018, 07:39:39 AM »
I do not have time to test everything..Bearly time to study what I do.'

I have Thunder Headers, They pull really well and everything I have read says they are pretty good set up.
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Offline Heatnbeat

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #119 on: February 15, 2018, 07:04:45 PM »
I'm with Thumper. When you put an AFR on it you are amazed at how much variance there is. It can seem like it runs fine but the mixture across the whole spectrum is far from ideal. In fact once you start to look at it you almost wonder how carbs even work at all.

Offline JW113

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #120 on: February 15, 2018, 08:39:25 PM »
Ha ha ha ha !!! That is the best post on this entire topic!
 :hyst:

Yes, amazing indeed. And yet, some of us seem to get from point A to point B, with a great running machine, day to day, for years on end, and even more amazing, no AFR gauge. Will miracles never cease?

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #121 on: February 15, 2018, 11:10:40 PM »
Ha ha ha ha !!! That is the best post on this entire topic!
 :hyst:

Yes, amazing indeed. And yet, some of us seem to get from point A to point B, with a great running machine, day to day, for years on end, and even more amazing, no AFR gauge. Will miracles never cease?

-JW
Lets face it, Most Harley riders Harley will never see the other side of 45MPH. Ok that's a small exaggeration, but not by much.
When I have to brake for them,  coming down over the Cascade Pass it is pretty frustrating!
Never mind I am in a pokey 18 wheeler!   :emoGroan:
Ever been out on a Saturday and had to pass 2, 3, or 60 of these clowns?
This has happened to me more than once -a bunch plugging up, and putting up the roads, having no clue, WHITE KNUCKLED, not smart enough to move to hail over!
My point?
These bikes could be jetted lean fat whatever as most these people never get to the main jet!
So jetting for them is as much a waste of time as fitting me for hi Heels.
Yes, year after year they putt around and would not know if they were on a hot rod or a moped, but they are status quo and so kool!
There is the few of us that demand more.
Maybe we are all here.
I demand 1.25 per cube as a baseline from an NA engine. I am hoping for 1.5 this year.
Jetting is pretty important to me, and it would be for a stock bike too if they used it much.Or Understood it much.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #122 on: February 16, 2018, 04:03:40 AM »

I demand 1.25 per cube as a baseline from an NA engine. I am hoping for 1.5 this year.
Jetting is pretty important to me, and it would be for a stock bike too if they used it much.Or Understood it much.

I love this thread, more twists and turns than Deals Gap and now another one.
Would please give the engine specs on this 1.25 hp/ci evo you've been riding and then the specs on the 1.5 hp/ci you are building? I would also be very interested in what carb you run because we  know it is not a jetted stock CV making 1.25 hp/ci on a 80ci Evo.

Offline Hossamania

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #123 on: February 16, 2018, 05:45:56 AM »
1.25 hp per cubic inch is pretty aggressive on a stock based motor.
I run a 95" twin cam that hit 100 horse with heads, carb, etc. To get to 113 horsepower would require quite a few more mods that are beyond the norm, much higher compression, much more aggressive cam, etc. Not very practical for a touring motor that should get to 100,000 miles. An Evo with an ev27 cam is not a high performance motor. It just needs to be dialed in and ridden, not constantly monitored and re-tuned. An occasional check and re-tune may help, but not critical to long life and good riding manners. 100 horsepower (1.25 hp per cube) in an Evo is very aggressive, almost a 75% increase in power. Not realistic for a long lasting well mannered touring motor.
Could mine use an afr guage to dial it in better? Sure, I'm not against it. Somehow without it though, it has reached well over 100,000 miles. It was Dyno tuned when new, and  about 30,000 miles later. This motor is not ridden gently.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 05:50:14 AM by Hossamania »
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Offline Hossamania

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #124 on: February 16, 2018, 05:52:59 AM »
Besides, I barely look at my oil guage, the afr guage would just be more ignored noise....
My boss always says mean things to me,
like, "You're late."

Offline Deye76

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #125 on: February 16, 2018, 06:00:47 AM »
"Most Harley riders Harley will never see the other side of 45MPH. Ok that's a small exaggeration"

Indeed a exaggeration. You need to attend a FXR meet, and try and keep up with some of those guys. The majority without AFR gauges, and some fast a$$, well tuned bikes.
East Tenn.
2014 CVO RK, 2015 RGS, 1992 FXRP

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #126 on: February 16, 2018, 06:52:54 AM »
It is all a compromise.
You cannot have a fast wing that works well at slow speeds.
I shoot for 20K between top ends.That is good enough for me .
This round with raised ports , a 50 deg face on valves and all
 the trimmings I am hoping with a 10.5 static, to see even better results.
1.25 per cube is not asking that much, just in the HD world.
Do I expect it to go a 100K? Nah.
Never have .
 I would get bored and tear it apart and try something new b4 that anyway.
Next time, I believe I will go the AA route with Pro Charger or the like.
It looks on the surface to be cheaper than all I have done NA.
Whooooops the subject meandered again.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline turboprop

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #127 on: February 16, 2018, 07:45:11 AM »
"Most Harley riders Harley will never see the other side of 45MPH. Ok that's a small exaggeration"

Indeed a exaggeration. You need to attend a FXR meet, and try and keep up with some of those guys. The majority without AFR gauges, and some fast a$$, well tuned bikes.

And then there is me. I have been to a few of the FXR meets and run an AFR gauge, but my bike is usually one of the fastest and most powerful bikes at the Jam.

So that you know, the year before last we connected my AFR gauge to two other bikes at the Jam. Neither of them was even close to  having the correct jets or having the mixture screw set even close. They ran alright, didn't stumble or pop. One was lean, the other bike was rich. Both had been tuned by a local 'Professional'.
'The Thread Killer' - Worn with pride.

Offline turboprop

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #128 on: February 16, 2018, 07:50:33 AM »
The AFR gauge usefulness can be compared to how some of the old timers felt about using a timing light on a harley. I can hear my dad now, 'Set those points with a book of matches'. it worked. Not very precise. Certainly would run points on any of my builds. Almost impossible to get repeatable results on a shovel or pan without a dial back timing light. The results of improper timing can usually be seen in the coloring of exhaust pipes.
'The Thread Killer' - Worn with pride.

Online ecir50

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #129 on: February 16, 2018, 10:12:50 AM »
"Most Harley riders Harley will never see the other side of 45MPH. Ok that's a small exaggeration"

Indeed a exaggeration. You need to attend a FXR meet, and try and keep up with some of those guys. The majority without AFR gauges, and some fast a$$, well tuned bikes.

His point was about using the main jet.

Offline Deye76

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Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #130 on: February 16, 2018, 04:59:56 PM »
" One was lean, the other bike was rich. Both had been tuned by a local 'Professional'."

Pretty sure I'd find a different tuner.

"His point was about using the main jet."
Mine too, I assure you the guys I'm talking about were way up on the main jet.

« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 05:04:55 PM by Deye76 »
East Tenn.
2014 CVO RK, 2015 RGS, 1992 FXRP