Author Topic: Jets EV27  (Read 2505 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline turboprop

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3335
  • Country: 00
Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #50 on: February 12, 2018, 10:20:05 AM »
BINGO!

On the edge? Nope. Either splitting lanes in daily commute, or steady cruise at highway speed.

Yes, close enough.
 :up:

Oh, and about those AFR gauges, particularly the cheapo ones you guys keep referring to. "Gauge R&R".

Speaking of one the edge, which in my book translates to "racing", let me ask a question to any of you drag racers that might be following this thread. Do you tune to a AFR gauge or a stopwatch?

-JW

I was involved with an AHDRA Pro Stock team for a few years. Our race pack logged AFR on both cylinders as well as many other things, and yes, we paid very close attention to the AFR.

Years ago, Gregg Krenick, with help from Steve Alsteadt, dominated the AHDRA Pro Mod class. The PM class did not allow any data logging devices. In test and tune, Doug ran a WEGO III to log AFR, RPM and one other input that Steve rigged up. Doug was consistently faster than anyone else in the class. When the AHDRA folded, everyone in the Pro Mod class was doing the same thing.
'Never try to teach a pig to sing, it only wastes your time and annoys the pig'.

Offline ecir50

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 144
  • Country: us
Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #51 on: February 12, 2018, 01:59:15 PM »
thumper is your AEM setup to display AFR or Lambda? 

Offline thumper 823

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 558
  • Country: us
  • If they say cant , it just means someone else will
Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #52 on: February 12, 2018, 02:03:12 PM »
AFR.
I think it can run Lam with a lap top...hard to do on a Road King.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline ecir50

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 144
  • Country: us
Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #53 on: February 12, 2018, 02:13:40 PM »
looks like the AEM has the capability to display lambra with a different faceplate which would be the preferred method.

Offline thumper 823

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 558
  • Country: us
  • If they say cant , it just means someone else will
Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #54 on: February 12, 2018, 03:34:14 PM »
The same information is it not?
Just presented in a different format.
They are using the same Bosch sensor.
It is more EZ to print out Lam on a graph then it is for  AFR.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline ecir50

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 144
  • Country: us
Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #55 on: February 12, 2018, 04:21:19 PM »
lambra is actual AFR with the fuel used. If you use straight gasoline (14.7 is stoich) and never E10 (14.3 is stoich) its not a problem.

Offline ecir50

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 144
  • Country: us
Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #56 on: February 12, 2018, 04:23:52 PM »
14.7 stoich = 1.0 lambra, 14.3 stoich is 1.0 lambra

Offline turboprop

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3335
  • Country: 00
Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #57 on: February 12, 2018, 07:00:52 PM »
The same information is it not?
Just presented in a different format.
They are using the same Bosch sensor.
It is more EZ to print out Lam on a graph then it is for  AFR.

Lambra is just a different scale. The FI system that haley uses switched over a few years ago from AFR to lambda. AFR works just fine for the carburated bikes, no advantages to speaking in lambda.
'Never try to teach a pig to sing, it only wastes your time and annoys the pig'.

Offline ecir50

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 144
  • Country: us
Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #58 on: February 12, 2018, 08:58:01 PM »
Saying lambra is just a different scale is the same as saying a AFR gauge is needed to tune a stock motor with a ev27 cam the op was talking about. Agree it wont make that much difference on a carbureted motor but it is far from the same. If you are running a AFR meter one should know the difference.

Most gauges are calibrated for 14.7 stoich so if you happen to be doing a long haul and stop at station that only offers E10 don't be surprised if your reading are different if you tuned your bike with straight gas.

Offline thumper 823

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 558
  • Country: us
  • If they say cant , it just means someone else will
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline turboprop

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3335
  • Country: 00
Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #60 on: February 13, 2018, 06:26:44 AM »
Saying lambra is just a different scale is the same as saying a AFR gauge is needed to tune a stock motor with a ev27 cam the op was talking about. Agree it wont make that much difference on a carbureted motor but it is far from the same. If you are running a AFR meter one should know the difference.

Most gauges are calibrated for 14.7 stoich so if you happen to be doing a long haul and stop at station that only offers E10 don't be surprised if your reading are different if you tuned your bike with straight gas.

I dont think anyone said the OP needed an AFR to tune that little engine. The AFR discussion came out as part of the usual thread drift. AFR, Lambda, whatever, its all really the same thing. Its not complicated and most AFR gauges are not calibrated for 14.7 stoich, at none of the three brands in my garage are.

Good grief, this is so reminiscent of when Steve Cole was here.
'Never try to teach a pig to sing, it only wastes your time and annoys the pig'.

Offline thumper 823

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 558
  • Country: us
  • If they say cant , it just means someone else will
Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #61 on: February 13, 2018, 08:51:19 AM »
Anyone that has a carb should have a way to dial in the AFR.
lOOK AT HOW MANY POST  BLITHER ON HERE!
The AEM makes it simple.
There is no way to know what is going on with the mix unless you are Superman with X-ray and can see inside to watch for Bunsen Blue

http://www.aemelectronics.com/?q=products/gauges/wideband-uego-air-fuel-gauges/digital-wideband-uego-afr-gauge/digital-wideband-uego-afr-gauge
The higher end meters are wideband say no calibration needed.
Next, most Harley are not  very fond of the 14.7 number, my little machine could never stand it

From their website -
WHAT IS FREE-AIR CALIBRATION?
Some of our competitors require that you frequently perform a free-air calibration procedure to calibrate their O2 sensors. This process involves removing the sensor from the bung while still connected to the controller device, then waving the sensor in the air so it can read atmospheric O2 levels. We use Bosch 4.9 LSU sensors in our wideband controllers. Our sensors are individually laboratory-calibrated by Bosch and never require free air calibration!
End.


I believe that was the old style sniffer? (that needed cal?)
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 08:56:58 AM by thumper 823 »
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline 1FSTRK

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 7762
  • Country: 00
Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #62 on: February 13, 2018, 11:07:24 AM »
Saying lambra is just a different scale is the same as saying a AFR gauge is needed to tune a stock motor with a ev27 cam the op was talking about. Agree it wont make that much difference on a carbureted motor but it is far from the same. If you are running a AFR meter one should know the difference.

Most gauges are calibrated for 14.7 stoich so if you happen to be doing a long haul and stop at station that only offers E10 don't be surprised if your reading are different if you tuned your bike with straight gas.

I dont think anyone said the OP needed an AFR to tune that little engine. The AFR discussion came out as part of the usual thread drift. AFR, Lambda, whatever, its all really the same thing. Its not complicated and most AFR gauges are not calibrated for 14.7 stoich, at none of the three brands in my garage are.

Good grief, this is so reminiscent of when Steve Cole was here.
But someone did
Reply #2

IMHO
You and everyone is guessing until you install an AFR gauge.
I have said it a 100 times and will a 10000 more, it is the best tool I have on my bike .
And again in reply#4

To each their own-
I will tell you this, I thought I could read plugs -you know pull in the clutch at whatever RPM I am checking, hit the kill switch, and pull the plugs.
My best guess was sometimes right according to the AFR meter, my best guess was usually a million miles off.
So, my opinion is without AFR,  it is a hipshot guess.
And why try?

The tool is available at a very reasonable cost.
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

Offline ecir50

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 144
  • Country: us
Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #63 on: February 13, 2018, 11:23:54 AM »
Keep reading, not talking about free air calibration. A AFR meter is nothing more than a sophisticated volt meter. The sensors send a voltage output, 0-1v narrow band 0-5v wideband hence the wideband is more accurate. The voltage the meter sees is setup to display 14.7 at 1.0 lambra.

Offline thumper 823

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 558
  • Country: us
  • If they say cant , it just means someone else will
Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #64 on: February 13, 2018, 11:28:02 AM »
Everyone wants to be an expert or win some internet argument-
I coud care less and freely share what i hve earned and learned.
You all win.
I will try to summarize in one last HOoorah here.
I have been on the planet 65 years and still learning.
One and the BIGGEST mistakes is to presume too much
As I said earlier-i thought I could read plugs and jet a carb.
Whilst ..maybe ...with a purrfect stock engine and stock bike.
Does it even exist?
What did the last guy do to it? :oops:
Presumption is not your friend.
These bikes are freeking old.
The machines are not stock and to dial a higher CR engine without away to read it is is futile with the advent of a better way.
For instance- mine with a very tight squish, ported, ETC will not have the same requirements as the next bike even if it had the same CR.
Its just like it only completely different as they say....LOL
To scream and  rail against this technology and adroitly say you are special and don't need such equipment
makes for the ingredients of arrogance.
To guess is not knowing.
Now I ask you by any metric you wish you address- "What is your AFR at 75MPH?  Compared to 90 MPH ?"
YOU, - can not answer that question that without the tool.
I think I will try to pass on the next jetting discussion..albeit the subject haclkes my hair when I see the droop in the answers.
Rail away, I will pass on the senseless wishful romantic thinking here.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline ecir50

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 144
  • Country: us
Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #65 on: February 13, 2018, 12:38:07 PM »
I'm not against using one was trying to help fine tune your knowledge on the subject.

Offline thumper 823

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 558
  • Country: us
  • If they say cant , it just means someone else will
Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #66 on: February 13, 2018, 01:13:27 PM »
Perhaps this will help ya ?

http://blog.innovatemotorsports.com/lambda-vs.-afr-whats-the-difference
Or perhaps you know everything.
Done here..the idiocy may remain.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline ecir50

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 144
  • Country: us
Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #67 on: February 13, 2018, 01:42:04 PM »
that article backs up my point  :emoGroan:.

one quote
“The solution to this problem is to simply use Lambda as your unit of measure since this does not change, regardless of the fuel or fuel blend being used,” advises Saez

and yet another
“Lambda has not been widely adopted in the United States and therefor it sounds foreign to most,” sums up Saez

I wonder why Harley switched to using lambra as turboprop stated earlier. Next time your at the pump see if the fuel you have been using contains ethanol.

Offline thumper 823

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 558
  • Country: us
  • If they say cant , it just means someone else will
Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #68 on: February 13, 2018, 01:54:35 PM »
I understand your point-
Most here are having a problem with just needing to know any point, plus your point(s).
Trying to fragrantly point this out is getting at least difficult because some of the Cadre come right back on and will tell the other troops not knowing is as good as guessing and that is all ok.

You should at least expound on the  pros and cons and what it means between the two metrics.
Pump gas varies in different areas, here the is no alcohol or meth added to the 91.
This makes for an EZ baseline to draw from for me.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline ecir50

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 144
  • Country: us
Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #69 on: February 13, 2018, 02:18:52 PM »
For a carbureted bike it wont make much difference as turboprop stated.

some of the stations here cya with a label saying may contain ethanol, how much  :nix:.
http://www.fuel-testers.com/state_guide_ethanol_laws.html

you can check your local station here
https://www.pure-gas.org/extensions/map.html

Harley using lambra now allows the computer to compensate more accurately if a different blend of fuel is used.

Offline thumper 823

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 558
  • Country: us
  • If they say cant , it just means someone else will
Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #70 on: February 13, 2018, 02:41:24 PM »
I am now going to get this one to see how wrong I have been...or perhaps how right .


http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16358&cat=0&page=1
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline ecir50

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 144
  • Country: us
Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #71 on: February 13, 2018, 03:00:24 PM »
nice but I would stick with what you have for your application. Did your AEM come with a lambra faceplate, manual says you can switch between AFR and lambra. 

Offline thumper 823

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 558
  • Country: us
  • If they say cant , it just means someone else will
Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #72 on: February 13, 2018, 05:58:29 PM »
No-
I am going to the dual set up after all this :
The argument that one cylinder is so far off, that AFR is so inaccurate. (*edit- upon some research, the AEM compensates and translates)
I now want to know the real story.
I am a life learner and right now this argument is raging on several forums at all times..
For me, I want the one real answer.
After all the money I have strewn across this bike and the floor it occupies what is another 400 bucks?
I am moving my ports this season, going to 50 deg cut, and a bunch of other crap.
The little Evo is in an evolution of its namesake with me .
I want the truth.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 07:48:55 PM by thumper 823 »
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline ecir50

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 144
  • Country: us
Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #73 on: February 13, 2018, 07:47:53 PM »
You should pull your plugs and see what they look like first, lol. Report back with your findings, suspect the rear will be rich.

Did your AEM come with a lambda faceplate? The original question I was only after.

Prostock hopefully stopped reading after the first reply to his op.

Offline thumper 823

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 558
  • Country: us
  • If they say cant , it just means someone else will
Re: Jets EV27
« Reply #74 on: February 13, 2018, 07:53:38 PM »
It is a jokers folly to look at plugs unless one shuts the engine dwn at load and RPM he is checking.
IE- thats the way we used to do it, run dwn the road at 40, 60 , 90  MPH each time pulling on the clutch and killing the ignition.
Pulling the plugs for a read.
People that try to read plugs after a couple minutes of idling or between lights or in a parking lot are taking off dwn wind with a short piece of real estate!.
It just is a fallacy.
plus today's gas will lie to you.
PS my front and rears are exactly the same , both heads look the same on the inside too.
EXACTLY
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 08:00:08 PM by thumper 823 »
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.