Author Topic: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do  (Read 3744 times)

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Offline Boe Cole

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ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« on: February 09, 2018, 09:02:47 AM »
Have an 11RGU with the ABS brakes.  Have bled out the brake fluid every winter replacing it with fresh fluid but making sure no air got into the system.  I do not have the electronic equipment to exercise the valves and have often thought to take it to the dealer to have them exercise the valves with their equipment, but being a little lazy, just have not done so.  Have noticed the valves "appear" to be working properly when I test them on damp grass by locking up the front and back.

My question is - Is HD going to plug in the abs to their equipment to exercise the valves or just replace the fluid - or both?  Does anyone know??

Thanking you all in advance for an answer,
Boe
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Offline rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2018, 09:21:41 AM »
Have an 11RGU with the ABS brakes.  Have bled out the brake fluid every winter replacing it with fresh fluid but making sure no air got into the system.  I do not have the electronic equipment to exercise the valves and have often thought to take it to the dealer to have them exercise the valves with their equipment, but being a little lazy, just have not done so.  Have noticed the valves "appear" to be working properly when I test them on damp grass by locking up the front and back.

My question is - Is HD going to plug in the abs to their equipment to exercise the valves or just replace the fluid - or both?  Does anyone know??

Thanking you all in advance for an answer,
Boe
Both would need to be done to be done right.
Ron

Online Ancient

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2018, 01:05:42 PM »
Of course the correct procedure requires them to be activated several times with their digital tech.

Now is every mechanic at every dealer going to follow the procedure to the letter? Your guess is as good as mine.
Greg

Online road-dawgs1

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2018, 01:42:35 PM »
Replace fluid with new “HD Platinum” dot 4 which won’t be at dealers until March and bleed on digital tech free of charge.

From their site:

If covered, the dealer will flush the entire brake system with a new fluid [H-D Platinum Label DOT 4 Brake Fluid] using Digital Tech II. Owners will also be reminded of the 2-year maintenance cycle specified in the Owner's Manual. As noted, this condition is associated with delayed or neglected brake fluid maintenance as specified in the Owner's Manual. Harley-Davidson does not intend to reimburse owners under its Reimbursement Program for costs incurred related to prior brake fluid flushes. However, Harley-Davidson is offering the remedy fluid flush (using the new H-D Platinum Label DOT 4 Brake Fluid) free of charge to all motorcycles within the recall population, regardless of their maintenance history.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2018, 01:46:42 PM by road-dawgs1 »
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Offline Coyote

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2018, 01:46:47 PM »
The dealers will have to do the service correct or the mother ship will know. Everything done in DigTech is sent back as a cya record on this stuff.
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Offline Latrobedyna

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2018, 03:01:16 PM »
Is there a actual copy of the recall notice?  A friend has the     2010 FLHTCUTG TRI GLIDE™ ULTRA CLASSIC i swore i read where it was included but now i cant find  :turd: about it anywhere. Wouldn't the trike have same ABS system on it? And yes it does indeed have ABS. Thanks Jeff
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Offline hogpipes1

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2018, 03:05:23 PM »
Is the new fluid better than reg dot 4 if used in non ABS bikes?

Offline kd

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KD

Offline Latrobedyna

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2018, 03:14:47 PM »
 :up:
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Online Ancient

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2018, 03:37:39 PM »
The dealers will have to do the service correct or the mother ship will know. Everything done in DigTech is sent back as a cya record on this stuff.

Good to hear. Didn't know that. :up:
Greg

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2018, 03:52:42 PM »
Is there a actual copy of the recall notice?  A friend has the     2010 FLHTCUTG TRI GLIDE™ ULTRA CLASSIC i swore i read where it was included but now i cant find  :turd: about it anywhere. Wouldn't the trike have same ABS system on it? And yes it does indeed have ABS. Thanks Jeff

Go to HD's site and put your VIN number in the safety and recall notices section.
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Offline FSG

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2018, 04:13:34 PM »
Quote
And yes it does indeed have ABS.

and you know this because ?

https://i.imgur.com/nrHRlYQ.png

Offline twincamzz

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2018, 05:20:44 AM »
I know I have read here on HTT about a scan tool (not digital technician dealers use ) that allows an individual like myself to exercise the ABS module on a 2017 Limited however I cannot remember the name of said tool. Hoping someone can point me in the right direction ?

Offline KEM

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2018, 05:43:57 AM »
Daytona Twin Tec Twinscan III ABS is the tool for CANbus. Twinscan II ABS is for bikes w/o CANbus.

http://www.daytona-twintec.com/Twin_Scan3.html



Offline twincamzz

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2018, 05:48:58 AM »
Daytona Twin Tec Twinscan III ABS is the tool for CANbus. Twinscan II ABS is for bikes w/o CANbus.

http://www.daytona-twintec.com/Twin_Scan3.html

Thank you !

Offline rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2018, 06:15:20 AM »
Is the new fluid better than reg dot 4 if used in non ABS bikes?
Is HD antifreeze better then any other brand? Mind you the price would make you believe it was blended by time travellers from the future. I recently bought another brand and it was more money then say another well known brand. I asked what is better about this then that. He said the price. :hyst:
Ron

Offline PIRSCH FIRE WAGON

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2018, 06:29:21 AM »
Here ya go
Tom

Offline rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2018, 07:05:17 AM »
Here ya go
What I get out of that is you MUST use the HD brake fluid. What a bunch of BS. Ok for the recall since it's free, but where does one stand later for self service and compliance to the owners manual?  Did I say total complete BS.
Ron

Online 14GuineaPig

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2018, 07:25:13 AM »
Is there a actual copy of the recall notice?  A friend has the     2010 FLHTCUTG TRI GLIDE™ ULTRA CLASSIC i swore i read where it was included but now i cant find  :turd: about it anywhere. Wouldn't the trike have same ABS system on it? And yes it does indeed have ABS. Thanks Jeff

The 2010 Trike did not have ABS.  You can look at the parts finder and see that no abs parts were offered.  The trike had a partial "linked" brake system in 2014 where the rear brake pedal activated "some" of the pistons in the front brake calipers but I don't THINK that they had ABS.

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2018, 07:47:30 AM »
I won't be taking my '09 bike into HD for the recall. I have a Twin Scan II and have once bled the system this past summer. I don't know how much of a difference there really is in brake fluids, but I elected to use Motul RBF600. It's a synthetic brake fluid, they package it with nitrogen in the bottle rather than air. The reason being less opportunity for moisture absorption while its in storage. Does that really matter? Maybe when you think of where the bottles live and travel, in non climate controlled environments. Hot warehouses or cold, hot or very cold trucks while riding across the country. The temperature changes causes moisture, so maybe you get a little more stable product.   :idunno:

They also claim it to have a higher boiling point in severe usage, not that I'll probably ever test that, but that doesn't hurt at all either.

https://www.motul.com/us/en-US/products/rbf-600-factory-line

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Offline tomcat64

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2018, 07:50:47 AM »
Is there a actual copy of the recall notice?  A friend has the     2010 FLHTCUTG TRI GLIDE™ ULTRA CLASSIC i swore i read where it was included but now i cant find  :turd: about it anywhere. Wouldn't the trike have same ABS system on it? And yes it does indeed have ABS. Thanks Jeff

tri-glides don't have ABS so they are not part of the recall..

Offline tomcat64

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2018, 07:54:33 AM »
you can "exercise" your brakes with our a scan tool,, once of twice a year find a quiet road,, and hammer the brakes, causing he ABS to cycle,, you don't have to come to a complete stop to do this, just dynamite the brakes until you are at about 20mph,, good practice anyway! I tell everybody that buys a bike with ABS to do this at least once a year!

Offline rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2018, 08:00:29 AM »
I won't be taking my '09 bike into HD for the recall. I have a Twin Scan II and have once bled the system this past summer. I don't know how much of a difference there really is in brake fluids, but I elected to use Motul RBF600. It's a synthetic brake fluid, they package it with nitrogen in the bottle rather than air. The reason being less opportunity for moisture absorption while its in storage. Does that really matter? Maybe when you think of where the bottles live and travel, in non climate controlled environments. Hot warehouses or cold, hot or very cold trucks while riding across the country. The temperature changes causes moisture, so maybe you get a little more stable product.   :idunno:

They also claim it to have a higher boiling point in severe usage, not that I'll probably ever test that, but that doesn't hurt at all either.

https://www.motul.com/us/en-US/products/rbf-600-factory-line
I have to wonder how much of this is factory induced from piss poor material handling or practices at the factory. I can tell you, on my clutch master I had great gobs of solids in the bottom. This is on a new bike with only 200 miles on it. Fortunately the brake fluids front and rear were clean. While the clutch has had two changes since, it has remained fairly clean and no more solids in the master.  I've read of several bikes, new have moisture contents already at the point where the fluid should be changed. Again factory fluid induced in some shape or form.

Ron

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2018, 08:02:41 AM »
I guess the whole point of this being an issue, is the HD system isn't the normal. Having to manually exercise the unit is really just silly that you have to. I mean how would you look at the Ford dealer if he told you to find an open road once a month and activate your ABS unit? Someone tells me this while I'm buying a new vehicle, and I'm not buying the vehicle. I bought my '09 in '10, as a used bike. I had never heard about any HD ABS issues until a few years after that. Had I known, I wouldn't have bought this bike. I would have found a non ABS bike, like my '08, it's non ABS. 
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Offline Hossamania

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2018, 08:06:12 AM »
Here ya go
What I get out of that is you MUST use the HD brake fluid. What a bunch of BS. Ok for the recall since it's free, but where does one stand later for self service and compliance to the owners manual?  Did I say total complete BS.
Ron

If a specific HD fluid is required, don't they have to provide it for free for the lifetime of the vehicle, per the Moss-Magnusen (sp ?) act?
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Offline rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2018, 08:20:39 AM »
Here ya go
What I get out of that is you MUST use the HD brake fluid. What a bunch of BS. Ok for the recall since it's free, but where does one stand later for self service and compliance to the owners manual?  Did I say total complete BS.
Ron

If a specific HD fluid is required, don't they have to provide it for free for the lifetime of the vehicle, per the Moss-Magnusen (sp ?) act?
Where's the profit in that? :wink:
Ron

Offline Hossamania

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2018, 08:40:04 AM »
Here ya go
What I get out of that is you MUST use the HD brake fluid. What a bunch of BS. Ok for the recall since it's free, but where does one stand later for self service and compliance to the owners manual?  Did I say total complete BS.
Ron

If a specific HD fluid is required, don't they have to provide it for free for the lifetime of the vehicle, per the Moss-Magnusen (sp ?) act?
Where's the profit in that? :wink:
Ron

Silly me!
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Offline kd

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2018, 09:07:40 AM »
I won't be taking my '09 bike into HD for the recall. I have a Twin Scan II and have once bled the system this past summer. I don't know how much of a difference there really is in brake fluids, but I elected to use Motul RBF600. It's a synthetic brake fluid, they package it with nitrogen in the bottle rather than air. The reason being less opportunity for moisture absorption while its in storage. Does that really matter? Maybe when you think of where the bottles live and travel, in non climate controlled environments. Hot warehouses or cold, hot or very cold trucks while riding across the country. The temperature changes causes moisture, so maybe you get a little more stable product.   :idunno:

They also claim it to have a higher boiling point in severe usage, not that I'll probably ever test that, but that doesn't hurt at all either.

https://www.motul.com/us/en-US/products/rbf-600-factory-line


The thing about brake fluid is for the most part it is water soluble. Water can be used for clean up. I can see how temperature variations could change the makeup of the fluid by taking the water out of suspension when subjected to the freeze and thaw physics.
KD

Offline Thermodyne

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2018, 09:27:05 AM »
Here ya go
What I get out of that is you MUST use the HD brake fluid. What a bunch of BS. Ok for the recall since it's free, but where does one stand later for self service and compliance to the owners manual?  Did I say total complete BS.
Ron

If a specific HD fluid is required, don't they have to provide it for free for the lifetime of the vehicle, per the Moss-Magnusen (sp ?) act?

As I understand it, that requirment was a seperate regulation that was enacted under the act.  And at best, barely enforcable.  Basically if there is a requirment to replace the fluid under the maintence requirments, and there is a substitue fluid available, even if its for limited use, then the designer fluid is not covered.  Just offering the special fluid for sale on the wholesale aftermarket is enough to avoid the regulation.  The intent was not to regulate the fluid sales, but to let you choose to have your vehicle serviced by non dealer shops.   

Offline rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2018, 10:07:01 AM »
I won't be taking my '09 bike into HD for the recall. I have a Twin Scan II and have once bled the system this past summer. I don't know how much of a difference there really is in brake fluids, but I elected to use Motul RBF600. It's a synthetic brake fluid, they package it with nitrogen in the bottle rather than air. The reason being less opportunity for moisture absorption while its in storage. Does that really matter? Maybe when you think of where the bottles live and travel, in non climate controlled environments. Hot warehouses or cold, hot or very cold trucks while riding across the country. The temperature changes causes moisture, so maybe you get a little more stable product.   :idunno:

They also claim it to have a higher boiling point in severe usage, not that I'll probably ever test that, but that doesn't hurt at all either.

https://www.motul.com/us/en-US/products/rbf-600-factory-line


The thing about brake fluid is for the most part it is water soluble. Water can be used for clean up. I can see how temperature variations could change the makeup of the fluid by taking the water out of suspension when subjected to the freeze and thaw physics.
Strangely enough the fluid moisture absorption trait is by design or intend. It keeps moisture in the mix so it can't come out of suspension and freeze somewhere in the system that could cause brake failures. Mind you, this absorption is also what places a fluid change interval on it that most ignore. Boiling point decreases and corrosion of internal components increases with too much moisture content.
Ron

Offline kd

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2018, 10:42:22 AM »
Ron, Are you saying the introduced moisture doesn't bind in the solution in the same way it does when it's first formulated, or the introduced moisture does bind and forms a new compound ( ie. gel). If that is so can how can it cause corrosion. By electrolytic action?
KD

Offline rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2018, 11:34:53 AM »
Ron, Are you saying the introduced moisture doesn't bind in the solution in the same way it does when it's first formulated, or the introduced moisture does bind and forms a new compound ( ie. gel). If that is so can how can it cause corrosion. By electrolytic action?

 This expains it better then my previous attempt.
http://www.brakebleeder.com/brake-fluid-white-paper-on-copper/
Ron
« Last Edit: February 10, 2018, 12:54:14 PM by rbabos »

Offline hattitude

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2018, 09:45:40 PM »

If a specific HD fluid is required, don't they have to provide it for free for the lifetime of the vehicle, per the Moss-Magnusen (sp ?) act?

As I understand it, that requirment was a seperate regulation that was enacted under the act.  And at best, barely enforcable.  Basically if there is a requirment to replace the fluid under the maintence requirments, and there is a substitue fluid available, even if its for limited use, then the designer fluid is not covered.  Just offering the special fluid for sale on the wholesale aftermarket is enough to avoid the regulation.  The intent was not to regulate the fluid sales, but to let you choose to have your vehicle serviced by non dealer shops.


Quote from Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act:

"(c) Prohibition on conditions for written or implied warranty; waiver by Commission, No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumer's using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade, or corporate name;"

In a nutshell, if HD required the use of Harley DOT 4 brake fluid be used, in order to maintain the warranty on the ABS Unit, they would have to supply the customer with the Harley DOT 4 brake fluid--- for the term of the warranty (barring a special waiver by the Commission).

Since none of the bikes included in this recall are under factory warranty (2008-2011), the MM Act is moot...

This whole fiasco is a remedy offered up by the MoCo, in response to the ABS complaints, and accepted by the NHTSA as an acceptable response.....
« Last Edit: February 10, 2018, 09:50:27 PM by hattitude »

Offline FSG

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2018, 09:59:51 PM »
Quote
This whole fiasco is a remedy offered up by the MoCo, in response to the ABS complaints, and accepted by the NHTSA as an acceptable response.....

That may well be true, BUT shouldn't there be some onus on the owner of the vehicle in the first place to ensure that schedule service as specified in the Owner’s Manual and Service Manual be performed.


Offline Maddo Snr

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2018, 10:26:16 PM »
That may well be true, BUT shouldn't there be some onus on the owner of the vehicle in the first place to ensure that schedule service as specified in the Owner’s Manual and Service Manual be performed.

And you and I both know Gary that taking it religiously to the dealer simply ensures the service box is ticked, not that the job is done to the spec in the actual book.

Re: the ABS on these models, mine kicks in regularly on washboarded dirt roads if you come in a bit hot into turns. Whilst it never locks up there's SFA braking effect when it cycles. Is this normal? I'm thinking about disabling the front ABS.

Offline Hossamania

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2018, 07:48:47 AM »
The ABS kicking in on choppy roads while braking is normal. Not always ideal, but normal.
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Offline Ohio HD

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2018, 07:52:54 AM »
The resolution on the ABS sensors that HD uses really aren't fine enough. This is why they feel so choppy and kick in and out the way they do. By the time they should be de-energizing the ABS, and then re-energizing it, the system either misses the event needed, or stays in ABS mode too long.
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Offline Hossamania

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2018, 07:58:26 AM »
Bigger rings on the wheel to get better readings aren't as pretty as the smaller hidden rings.
BMW, big visible rings that work very well.
 Form over function.
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Offline rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #38 on: February 11, 2018, 08:06:02 AM »
Bigger rings on the wheel to get better readings aren't as pretty as the smaller hidden rings.
BMW, big visible rings that work very well.
 Form over function.
Isn't that function over looks with BMW or other better ABS systems? I know what you meant. That Harley ABS bearing is really lame for good results.
Ron

Offline Hossamania

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #39 on: February 11, 2018, 08:08:11 AM »
Bigger rings on the wheel to get better readings aren't as pretty as the smaller hidden rings.
BMW, big visible rings that work very well.
 Form over function.
Isn't that function over looks with BMW or other better ABS systems? I know what you meant. That Harley ABS bearing is really lame for good results.
Ron

I had it in the wrong spot. Harley is form over function.
BMW attempts form and succeeds for the most part, but function trumps form when it comes to safety.
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Offline dogger

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2018, 09:57:40 AM »
I can't say enough about the ABS on the 1600.

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #41 on: February 11, 2018, 10:34:26 AM »
I have never understood why HD did not use the outer edge of the brake disk as a reluctor ring. Mount the sensor on the back side of the caliper.
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #42 on: February 11, 2018, 10:36:17 AM »
Because their rotors warp.....   just sayin....       :hyst:

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Offline rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2018, 10:37:03 AM »
I have never understood why HD did not use the outer edge of the brake disk as a reluctor ring. Mount the sensor on the back side of the caliper.
One less place to get a rag stuck when cleaning. We all like to clean you know? :wink:
Ron

Offline 04 SE DEUCE

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #44 on: February 11, 2018, 11:46:22 AM »
Really neat thing about this ABS is that it fails to no brakes leaving you in Fred Flintstone mode....drag'n your feet.  :dgust:

Service maintenance,  fluid change and cycling the module is important if you want/like brakes.

Offline rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #45 on: February 11, 2018, 01:46:11 PM »
Really neat thing about this ABS is that it fails to no brakes leaving you in Fred Flintstone mode....drag'n your feet.  :dgust:

Service maintenance,  fluid change and cycling the module is important if you want/like brakes.
I'm really amazed they can get away with that. Failure should only be a nuisance, not a life threatening situation.
Ron

Offline kd

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #46 on: February 11, 2018, 02:09:36 PM »
Ron, I just found this on the government of Canada web site in a quick search.  :dgust:  I haven't looked any deeper than the FAQ. It seems there are standards where any part of a brake system fails the brakes must still work. As we don't have emergency brake cables or devices (or 2 means of braking) HD may be toast if it gets found out at Transport Canada.

Does Transport Canada have a safety standard for ABS?
No, not for ABS alone.

Transport Canada does have a standard for effectiveness of a vehicle's intact brake system, which includes braking performance in case of a failure of part of the system.

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/motorvehiclesafety/tp-tp13082-abs4_e-217.htm#standard

 
KD

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #47 on: February 11, 2018, 02:13:26 PM »
I have never understood why HD did not use the outer edge of the brake disk as a reluctor ring. Mount the sensor on the back side of the caliper.
One less place to get a rag stuck when cleaning. We all like to clean you know? :wink:
Ron

Appearance over function, I get it, after all I have been riding HD's for 15 years.
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Offline yobtaf103

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #48 on: February 11, 2018, 04:18:03 PM »
 softail 11 abs not included, also what's manufactured in Brazil?

Offline rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #49 on: February 12, 2018, 05:01:08 AM »
Ron, I just found this on the government of Canada web site in a quick search.  :dgust:  I haven't looked any deeper than the FAQ. It seems there are standards where any part of a brake system fails the brakes must still work. As we don't have emergency brake cables or devices (or 2 means of braking) HD may be toast if it gets found out at Transport Canada.

Does Transport Canada have a safety standard for ABS?
No, not for ABS alone.

Transport Canada does have a standard for effectiveness of a vehicle's intact brake system, which includes braking performance in case of a failure of part of the system.

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/motorvehiclesafety/tp-tp13082-abs4_e-217.htm#standard
Interesting. All it will take is a couple of pissed off owners to call or email. I'm sure they already know about the recall and will use the wait and see approach until then.
Ron

Offline markymark

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #50 on: February 12, 2018, 06:01:39 AM »
Is HD going to reimburse owners who have paid for the HCU replacement ??

Offline rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #51 on: February 12, 2018, 08:20:48 AM »
Is HD going to reimburse owners who have paid for the HCU replacement ??
Now you are pushing your luck. :hyst: Not unless someone makes them.
Ron

Offline hattitude

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #52 on: February 12, 2018, 06:54:39 PM »
Quote
This whole fiasco is a remedy offered up by the MoCo, in response to the ABS complaints, and accepted by the NHTSA as an acceptable response.....

That may well be true, BUT shouldn't there be some onus on the owner of the vehicle in the first place to ensure that schedule service as specified in the Owner’s Manual and Service Manual be performed.


Absolutely.... I'm not trying to absolve consumers of our responsibilities. I was just trying to point out that this isn't a warranty issue, it's an NHTSA (safety)/MoCo issue, and as such, the MM Act has no application here....

I feel the big issue isn't about the ABS Unit failing, but how it disables the system when it fails.. That seems to me, to be a major design/engineering issue that should fall solely on the MoCo's shoulders...

If my ABS unit fails because I fail to do proper maintenance, that's on me to pay for a new unit... but if/when my ABS unit fails, it shouldn't make my brakes inoperable, it should just disable the ABS function....

The MoCo cut a deal with NHTSA, on how to handle the complaints NHTSA has received. It is my opinion that the MoCo managed to dupe/convince the NHTSA that the issue is maintenance, instead of faulty/bad design.... The MoCo dodged a big bullet....
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 06:58:43 PM by hattitude »

Offline Hossamania

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #53 on: February 13, 2018, 02:53:25 AM »
Braking systems have to have a secondary fail safe system, hence the E-brake and dual reservoir system separating front and rear brakes on cars.
Since motorcycles have separate front and rear systems, is that how they get by with having a complete failure on one system, a second is available as backup, therefore not a complete recall?
How does it affect linked systems? Do the front brakes still work if the rears fail, and vice-versa?
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Offline Ohio HD

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #54 on: February 13, 2018, 03:02:03 AM »
Yes, cars do have tandem braking systems. None have an emergency brake. The term emergency brake is in fact a parking brake, and that's all it's intended for. Not to stop a moving vehicle, but to hold it on an unlevel surface.
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Offline Hossamania

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #55 on: February 13, 2018, 03:23:05 AM »
Yes, cars do have tandem braking systems. None have an emergency brake. The term emergency brake is in fact a parking brake, and that's all it's intended for. Not to stop a moving vehicle, but to hold it on an unlevel surface.

True, I have always called it the parking brake, but it is always referred to as the E-brake now.
Cars only have one foot pedal, but because motorcycles have separate hand and foot brakes, is this how the total recall is being avoided?
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Offline Ohio HD

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #56 on: February 13, 2018, 03:27:17 AM »
Yes, cars do have tandem braking systems. None have an emergency brake. The term emergency brake is in fact a parking brake, and that's all it's intended for. Not to stop a moving vehicle, but to hold it on an unlevel surface.

True, I have always called it the parking brake, but it is always referred to as the E-brake now.
Cars only have one foot pedal, but because motorcycles have separate hand and foot brakes, is this how the total recall is being avoided?


My Silverado owners manual calls it a parking brake. If it were an emergency brake they would be showing you how to use them in drivers education.
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Offline kd

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #57 on: February 13, 2018, 04:58:44 AM »
Air braked and Hydraulic braked vehicles (cars and trucks) require 2 separate means of braking. One is hydraulic / air and the other is mechanical (cable, linkage for hydraulic or with air a spring). That is federal law in both of our countries (and the rest of the world). One has to be completely independent of the other in case of a failure and both must be in operating condition to pass a MV safety.   
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 05:07:11 AM by kd »
KD

Offline rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #58 on: February 13, 2018, 05:26:25 AM »
I wonder how many failed before the 2 year service interval? I do know, one of the v rods I test rode the rear brake was rock solid and inoperable. Bike was 6 months old at the time. This places the issue in a whole new light.
Ron

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #59 on: February 13, 2018, 05:44:44 AM »
If you are old enough this is where is started.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parking_brake#Emergency_brake

Like many things it is also regional, around here it was always refereed to as an emergency brake
and we were taught to use it as such in driver education class. We did driving drills in the school parking lot stopping by holding the release with one hand and pressing the pedal as well as a drill where you would be coming to a stop and the instructor would holler No Brakes and you had to hit the pedal.
Each car load of kids got a ride where the instructor would hit the brake at a high enough speed to get the car squirrely when he hit the pedal just to show what would happen when you locked the rear brakes at higher speed. (picture that in today's world) 
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Offline Ohio HD

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #60 on: February 13, 2018, 05:48:10 AM »
It's one of those things that gets called something it's not, and the name sticks. Parking brakes are not safety rated, they're requirement is that they hold a vehicle on a grade.


https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/393.41

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Offline Thermodyne

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #61 on: February 13, 2018, 06:21:02 AM »
Having one 1/2 of a brake system fail is not a defect issue in and of itself, as long as the other 1/2 still functions.  It's only been since 67 that cars have been required to have split systems.  All that is required is that there be fail over brakes.  Before 67, any loss of brake fluid was a total brake failure in many cars.   

The lack of personal injury's and accidents associated with the Harley ABS failures, as well as the low percentage of units that failed, make any further action unlikely.  The 11's are 7 years old now, so it's old vehicles in the eyes of the government.  And failures of brake related components would be considered wear and tear.  This is a safety action, not a shitty parts action.  If these were cars, you would have been lucky to get a sticker to put on the master cylinder.

Some might have success in court, but it would be a lot of expense for an sub $1000 repair.  And the MoCo knows that. 

 

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #62 on: February 13, 2018, 12:09:45 PM »
The basis of the movie "Fight Club." Which costs more, the proper repair, or the settlement of the lawsuits.
All decisions are economic.
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Offline moose

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #63 on: February 14, 2018, 02:13:09 AM »
my rear brakes at times feel very hard to press but no abs light comes on.  This is on a 2011 ultra limited this has only happened a few times and I service the brakes once a year
Moose aka Glenn- New Jersey Shore

Offline rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #64 on: February 14, 2018, 05:36:51 AM »
my rear brakes at times feel very hard to press but no abs light comes on.  This is on a 2011 ultra limited this has only happened a few times and I service the brakes once a year
According to my V rod owners manual that occasional condition can be normal. Applying the rear brake only in hard engine braking or strong decels the rear tire slows down enough to prevent the rear brake from working and locking the tire up. The result is a hard rear peddle. The same conditions can lead to brake surging.
It would seem if one wants to stop fast, don't do hard down shifts or hard decels the same time you apply the brakes. Otherwords if you want to stop fast, the clutch needs to be pulled in.  What a  :turd: system this is. Mind you, I've not experienced it in 5 years of riding. My panic stops, the clutch was pulled in. Now the vrod I test rode that had a hard rear brake, I was in a hard decel, just after heavy throttle. Had it not been for the front brakes, I would have overshot the dealer driveway. So, was the ABS fkd or was it a condition I set up. I warned the second rider about the rear brake. He came back and said it worked ok. Hmm.
Ron
Ron

Offline bigfoot5x

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #65 on: February 14, 2018, 08:17:34 AM »
Back to an earlier question: A friend of mine had a 2009 Ultra. He began having a problem with the front brake first thing in the morning not working. Once the lever "broke loose" the brake worked fine the rest of the day. He took it in and was told the only fix was a new ABS module under the seat. He paid for that. Shouldn't he get reimbursed?

Online Ancient

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #66 on: February 14, 2018, 09:36:08 AM »
Back to an earlier question: A friend of mine had a 2009 Ultra. He began having a problem with the front brake first thing in the morning not working. Once the lever "broke loose" the brake worked fine the rest of the day. He took it in and was told the only fix was a new ABS module under the seat. He paid for that. Shouldn't he get reimbursed?

It would be nice, but to my knowledge neither the moco or NHTSB has labeled that module as inherently defective. They've spun it as an owner lack of proper maintenance issue and they are giving you a big hug by doing the maintenance for free this time to keep you safe and warm. :emsad:

I don't think the moco is worrying about the owners very much. I'm sure they have projected to the penny what this recall will cost and what they will gain from appearing to do the right thing.

Greg

Offline Thermodyne

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #67 on: February 14, 2018, 11:47:46 AM »
my rear brakes at times feel very hard to press but no abs light comes on.  This is on a 2011 ultra limited this has only happened a few times and I service the brakes once a year

If the brakes are not hot, as in during a fast run through the twisties or an extended stay in the stop and go traffic, then its an issue. 

Offline moose

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #68 on: February 15, 2018, 02:32:29 AM »
JUST had mine done today at the dealer  MY06-11  factory paid  1.2 hours
used fluid # 4180070 platin fluid    bullitin #m1470

called one dealer and they said they had the fluid but could not sell it to me

went to a different one bought one for a spare  had the service done
Moose aka Glenn- New Jersey Shore

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #69 on: February 15, 2018, 02:36:42 AM »
Did HD send a letter to you, or did you just go and they ran your VIN to see if the bike qualified?
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Offline Thermodyne

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #70 on: February 15, 2018, 08:33:23 AM »
JUST had mine done today at the dealer  MY06-11  factory paid  1.2 hours
used fluid # 4180070 platin fluid    bullitin #m1470

called one dealer and they said they had the fluid but could not sell it to me

went to a different one bought one for a spare  had the service done

Platin fluid is what Ford went to to address some of their ABS failures.  It has some anti corrosion stuff added.

Quote
PLATIN BRAKE FLUID DOT 4 LV is a fully synthetic, low viscosity brake fluid for modern ESP and ABS control systems. It is based on glycols with oxidation and corrosion inhibitors and has high reserves for dry and wet boiling temperatures in compliance with DOT 4 and ISO Class 6.

Offline moose

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #71 on: February 15, 2018, 10:37:47 AM »
they pulled vin and did the service  I called ahead of time to make sure they could get it in and they had the new fluid in stock
Moose aka Glenn- New Jersey Shore

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #72 on: February 15, 2018, 10:42:09 AM »
Thanks, I was just curious if they had or will be sending out notices like they did with the brake light switches.
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Offline rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #73 on: February 15, 2018, 12:34:04 PM »
The whole deal is a bunch of crap in my view. Neither Platinum or Platin, which are two different brads of Dot 4 can exclude the two year recommended changes. While there might be a tad more inhibitors in the new formula product, any existing corrosion in there now will remain anyway, plus since the two year flush still applies to either brands the corrosion inhibitors will be mostly depleted also. Any and all of them will break down over time. It boils down to correct service intervals and methods.
Ron

Offline FSG

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #74 on: February 15, 2018, 10:21:00 PM »
Quote
It boils down to correct service intervals and methods.

 :up:

Offline moose

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #75 on: February 16, 2018, 09:20:33 AM »
I agree on the service intervals,  but the real problem is the abs not activating the pistons without having to go to the dealer for the dt to do it or you have to buy your own device.   It does not say in the book to exercise the abs just change fluid.  a definite design flaw.  I do flex mine but I have some buds that won't due to fear of falling and they have never had to use their abs
Moose aka Glenn- New Jersey Shore

Offline Thermodyne

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #76 on: February 16, 2018, 10:38:22 AM »
I agree on the service intervals,  but the real problem is the abs not activating the pistons without having to go to the dealer for the dt to do it or you have to buy your own device.  It does not say in the book to exercise the abs just change fluid.  a definite design flaw.  I do flex mine but I have some buds that won't due to fear of falling and they have never had to use their abs

What book are you reading?  Step 11 from the manual as per bleeding the brakes:

Quote
If vehicle is ABS equiped, connect DIGITAL TECHNITION II (part # bla blah ) and follow the brake bleeding procedure.

It also lists the Digi Tech is a needed tool right at the beginning of the section, and has a bold warning paragraph to the effect that not using the proper procedure can result in maiming or death ect ect. 

The only thing not covered is the actual procedure with the digi tech.  But since you can't buy the Digi Tech, there reall isn't any need to tell you how to use it. 

Offline rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #77 on: February 16, 2018, 10:56:06 AM »
I agree on the service intervals,  but the real problem is the abs not activating the pistons without having to go to the dealer for the dt to do it or you have to buy your own device.  It does not say in the book to exercise the abs just change fluid.  a definite design flaw.  I do flex mine but I have some buds that won't due to fear of falling and they have never had to use their abs

What book are you reading?  Step 11 from the manual as per bleeding the brakes:

Quote
If vehicle is ABS equiped, connect DIGITAL TECHNITION II (part # bla blah ) and follow the brake bleeding procedure.

It also lists the Digi Tech is a needed tool right at the beginning of the section, and has a bold warning paragraph to the effect that not using the proper procedure can result in maiming or death ect ect. 

The only thing not covered is the actual procedure with the digi tech.  But since you can't buy the Digi Tech, there reall isn't any need to tell you how to use it.
Not in my book. I've checked twice to see if they covered their ass.
Ron

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #78 on: February 16, 2018, 11:49:50 AM »
I agree on the service intervals,  but the real problem is the abs not activating the pistons without having to go to the dealer for the dt to do it or you have to buy your own device.   It does not say in the book to exercise the abs just change fluid.  a definite design flaw.  I do flex mine but I have some buds that won't due to fear of falling and they have never had to use their abs

I don't think Moose was talking about the brake fluid flush when he mentioned exercising the abs.  I took it to mean that the owner's manual doesn't tell the rider to go out and do a few hard stops to activate/exercise the abs unit.  I've had my 14 FLHTK for over 4 years now and I doubt that I have activated the abs more than a handful of times.  I have had the 2 year services done by the dealer so the so that's about all the exercise the abs unit has gotten.
I know what the maintenance schedule says but the brake fluid change is one of the few items that are based time instead of mileage.  That being said, I think many owners, that have their bikes serviced by dealers/indys, are going to ask for service based on mileage; 5k,10k etc.  Unless the owner specifically asks for the brake fluid change, it's going to be overlooked.

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #79 on: February 16, 2018, 01:20:12 PM »
States in my 2009 service manual to use the digital tech.

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Offline nomadmax

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #80 on: February 16, 2018, 01:25:13 PM »
Here's a video on the recall and cause.

I do find it interesting that the Tech said if the owner could have documented brake fluid changes Harley would have paid for the HCU R&R.

The other thing that was interesting was that BOTH front and rear brakes failed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9l7U2i1P0uE

Offline rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #81 on: February 16, 2018, 01:28:33 PM »
States in my 2009 service manual to use the digital tech.

(Attachment Link)
Doesn't say DT for two year fluid flush. Only if components are opened up.
I don't have that warning in my owners manual . I've not checked in the SM, but positive I've seen it in mine also but most never own one of those.
Ron
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 04:32:22 PM by rbabos »

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #82 on: February 16, 2018, 01:43:17 PM »
States in my 2009 service manual to use the digital tech.

(Attachment Link)
Doesn't say DT for two year fluid flush. Only if components are opened up.
I don't have that warning in my owner manual either. I've not checked in the SM, but most never own one of those.
Ron

Actually it does. See note #4.


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« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 03:34:52 PM by Ohio HD »
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Offline rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #83 on: February 16, 2018, 01:48:42 PM »
States in my 2009 service manual to use the digital tech.

(Attachment Link)
Doesn't say DT for two year fluid flush. Only if components are opened up.
I don't have that warning in my owner manual either. I've not checked in the SM, but most never own one of those.
Ron

Actually it does. See note #4.

(Attachment Link)
That I have also, #4 in my VR 2013 owners manual. It does not mention to use DT or to be done at a dealer. DT is only needed if air is allowed into the system during a component change to correctly eliminate all air, based on your last post. I do not have that warning in my owners manual stating the need to use Digital Tech.
Ron

Offline Thermodyne

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #84 on: February 16, 2018, 02:52:51 PM »
I agree on the service intervals,  but the real problem is the abs not activating the pistons without having to go to the dealer for the dt to do it or you have to buy your own device.  It does not say in the book to exercise the abs just change fluid.  a definite design flaw.  I do flex mine but I have some buds that won't due to fear of falling and they have never had to use their abs

What book are you reading?  Step 11 from the manual as per bleeding the brakes:

Quote
If vehicle is ABS equiped, connect DIGITAL TECHNITION II (part # bla blah ) and follow the brake bleeding procedure.

It also lists the Digi Tech is a needed tool right at the beginning of the section, and has a bold warning paragraph to the effect that not using the proper procedure can result in maiming or death ect ect. 

The only thing not covered is the actual procedure with the digi tech.  But since you can't buy the Digi Tech, there reall isn't any need to tell you how to use it.
Not in my book. I've checked twice to see if they covered their ass.
Ron

Again, what book?

Offline rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #85 on: February 16, 2018, 04:19:23 PM »
I agree on the service intervals,  but the real problem is the abs not activating the pistons without having to go to the dealer for the dt to do it or you have to buy your own device.  It does not say in the book to exercise the abs just change fluid.  a definite design flaw.  I do flex mine but I have some buds that won't due to fear of falling and they have never had to use their abs

What book are you reading?  Step 11 from the manual as per bleeding the brakes:

Quote
If vehicle is ABS equiped, connect DIGITAL TECHNITION II (part # bla blah ) and follow the brake bleeding procedure.

It also lists the Digi Tech is a needed tool right at the beginning of the section, and has a bold warning paragraph to the effect that not using the proper procedure can result in maiming or death ect ect. 

The only thing not covered is the actual procedure with the digi tech.  But since you can't buy the Digi Tech, there reall isn't any need to tell you how to use it.
Not in my book. I've checked twice to see if they covered their ass.
Ron

Again, what book?
As spelled out in the new bike owners manual everyone gets,  for all service intervals. Regarding brake fluid as Brian pointed out, Note 4 says every 2 years. If Note 1 was also added that would be a different story regarding fluid service and possible cycling of the unit. I doubt even then it would have been cycled with DT, since the cause was unknown. Clearly states the owners manual the owner was never obligated to go to the dealer for this service. There was no number 1 in the brake fluid service interval.
Ron
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 04:58:33 PM by rbabos »

Offline FSG

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #86 on: February 16, 2018, 04:59:58 PM »
this is the best I can find in the 2013 VRSCDX NIGHT ROD SPECIAL Owners Manual, Domestic and INTL


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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #87 on: February 16, 2018, 05:16:31 PM »
Owner's Manuals tell you the maintenance schedule. Service Manuals tell you how to do it.   :nix:
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Offline Maddo Snr

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #88 on: February 16, 2018, 06:21:32 PM »
Really neat thing about this ABS is that it fails to no brakes leaving you in Fred Flintstone mode....drag'n your feet.  :dgust:

I wonder if export models are the same Rick? It is a state legal requirement here for ABS modules to fail-safe into normal brake mode...

And another thing...the HD recall notice doesn't comply with Australian Law (ADR) because it is required to detail the technical reason for the recall.

What is the REAL reason?

* two year change intervals too long?
* dodgy dealer techs not doing the job to spec?
* contaminants in the OEM fill?
* poor cap-seal vents letting in water?
* production residues in the OEM master cylinders?

The MoCo might be able to get away with half-arsed vague announcements over there but the Feds here are onto this. The VW diesel issue has them fired up for a kill.

IMO, the performance of tourer brakes under ABS is atrocious, they might as well not work. After 20 years of MX racing I'd be safer without them, no argument at all...
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 10:27:14 PM by Maddo Snr »

Offline rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #89 on: February 17, 2018, 06:11:55 AM »
Owner's Manuals tell you the maintenance schedule. Service Manuals tell you how to do it.   :nix:
That is what I was trying to express. Most do not buy a SM, especially for a simple brake fluid swap. The need for cycling the HCU durng a brake fluid swap is also a fairly recent affair. A 2009-2011 will, should have had several flushes. Even if the dealer did this, I wonder if the unit was cycled as part of the program. I bet not. I bet they do now, each and every time.
Ron

Offline kd

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #90 on: February 17, 2018, 07:03:30 AM »
As I follow this discussion I can't help not going back in my mind to the fact that if this ABS system fails the complete braking system fails and you DO NOT have any brakes. I cannot believe any jurisdiction for road safety is OK with this. Even with the proper servicing instructions it is not reasonable to believe that every one sits down and reads the owner manual and if they do they are astute enough to get the importance of a 2 year flush. Plus the fact that the MOCO has built in obsolescence into the bikes that requires you to return to them for $ervice regardless of the mileage. 

Every one of us (whether or not you want to admit it) has owned vehicles that we NEVER changed brake fluid in and NEVER had a failure or poor performance. The bottom line is, the failure of the ABS should not cause the failure of the foundation braking system. The ABS failure should mean just that. No Antilock Brakes only.  This is a very dangerous system and setting a frightening precedence if allowed to continue. The Motor Vehicle Safety Administration folks are in my mind being sold a bill of goods by the MOCO and for some reason not seeing the big picture and become part of the problem. It is a design flaw that can kill.  Time will tell if we see the system change to only effect the ABS part of the system. That in itself will indicate they know the dangers and refused to spend the money to go back and correct the problem.

OK. now the rest of you can go back to blaming the owner for not doing the brake fluid change and fall into the MOCO trap.  :nix:
KD

Offline rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #91 on: February 17, 2018, 07:11:32 AM »
As I follow this discussion I can't help not going back in my mind to the fact that if this ABS system fails the complete braking system fails and you DO NOT have any brakes. I cannot believe any jurisdiction for road safety is OK with this. Even with the proper servicing instructions it is not reasonable to believe that every one sits down and reads the owner manual and if they do they are astute enough to get the importance of a 2 year flush. Plus the fact that the MOCO has built in obsolescence into the bikes that requires you to return to them for $ervice regardless of the mileage. 

Every one of us (whether or not you want to admit it) has owned vehicles that we NEVER changed brake fluid in and NEVER had a failure or poor performance. The bottom line is, the failure of the ABS should not cause the failure of the foundation braking system. The ABS failure should mean just that. No Antilock Brakes only.  This is a very dangerous system and setting a frightening precedence if allowed to continue. The Motor Vehicle Safety Administration folks are in my mind being sold a bill of goods by the MOCO and for some reason not seeing the big picture and become part of the problem. It is a design flaw that can kill.  Time will tell if we see the system change to only effect the ABS part of the system. That in itself will indicate they know the dangers and refused to spend the money to go back and correct the problem.

OK. now the rest of you can go back to blaming the owner for not doing the brake fluid change and fall into the MOCO trap.  :nix:
Ya think? Look at the bright side. Generally only one brake fails as would any regular auto non abs would on a common master cyl. That could be how they get away with it. :emoGroan: In that posted vid , both failed which is interesting.
Ron
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 07:19:36 AM by rbabos »

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #92 on: February 17, 2018, 07:27:17 AM »
I'm not supporting HD in their in my opinion poor ABS design. However I have three choices, get rid of the bike, convert to non-ABS, take on the task of bleeding the system myself with the proper tools. I'm currently doing choice number three. I don't agree with how the system works and potentially can fail. If that overwhelms me, then I need to execute choice one or choice two. But to believe that HD will in anyway be bringing all of these bikes in for some new system, forget it, not going to happen. So as I said, we have to make one of the three choices if this is a concern for us. 
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Offline kd

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #93 on: February 17, 2018, 07:28:56 AM »
As I follow this discussion I can't help not going back in my mind to the fact that if this ABS system fails the complete braking system fails and you DO NOT have any brakes. I cannot believe any jurisdiction for road safety is OK with this. Even with the proper servicing instructions it is not reasonable to believe that every one sits down and reads the owner manual and if they do they are astute enough to get the importance of a 2 year flush. Plus the fact that the MOCO has built in obsolescence into the bikes that requires you to return to them for $ervice regardless of the mileage. 

Every one of us (whether or not you want to admit it) has owned vehicles that we NEVER changed brake fluid in and NEVER had a failure or poor performance. The bottom line is, the failure of the ABS should not cause the failure of the foundation braking system. The ABS failure should mean just that. No Antilock Brakes only.  This is a very dangerous system and setting a frightening precedence if allowed to continue. The Motor Vehicle Safety Administration folks are in my mind being sold a bill of goods by the MOCO and for some reason not seeing the big picture and become part of the problem. It is a design flaw that can kill.  Time will tell if we see the system change to only effect the ABS part of the system. That in itself will indicate they know the dangers and refused to spend the money to go back and correct the problem.

OK. now the rest of you can go back to blaming the owner for not doing the brake fluid change and fall into the MOCO trap.  :nix:
Ya think? Look at the bright side. Generally only one brake fails as would any regular auto non abs would on a common master cyl. That could be how they get away with it. :emoGroan: In that posted vid , both failed which is interesting.
Ron



Sorry, but I fail to see how that is OK that "only" one brake fails.  :scratch:  Tell that to someone engaged in a panic stop trying to save his and his passenger's life.  Having only one brake fail is still over the top and not a good comparison to use the dual master cylinder "foundation" brake. We're talking about a brake enhancer (ABS), not a complete braking system. The failure of the brake enhancer should not take out the whole brake, whether it's one wheel or both. Either one can cause sudden death.
KD

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #94 on: February 17, 2018, 07:37:34 AM »
If you have to panic brake, you have done something wrong, like following too closely or not having situational awareness, and it's your fault.................................................................
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Offline kd

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #95 on: February 17, 2018, 07:42:58 AM »
If you have to panic brake, you have done something wrong, like following too closely or not having situational awareness, and it's your fault.................................................................



Well I hope you are joking there Hoss. If not, then you are the first person with as many miles as you claim under your belt that I have heard has never had some $@&(*% day dreamer, texting,  drunk or blind as a bat (I didn't see the motorcycle or stop sign) pull out in front of you or change lanes unexpectedly.   You better stop playing in traffic.
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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #96 on: February 17, 2018, 07:44:23 AM »
If you have to panic brake, you have done something wrong, like following too closely or not having situational awareness, and it's your fault.................................................................

Sooo, if I am coming your direction, and decide to cross the lane at 55mph, and kamikaze into you at the last second, and you react and panic brake, it's your fault?    :scratch:
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Offline Ohio HD

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #97 on: February 17, 2018, 07:44:41 AM »



Well then you are the first person with as many miles as you claim under your belt that I have heard has never had some $@&(*% day dreamer, texting,  drunk or blind as a bat (I didn't see the motorcycle or stop sign) pull out in front of you or change lanes unexpectedly.

   :up:
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Offline Hossamania

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #98 on: February 17, 2018, 07:52:34 AM »
Yes guys, it was a joke.
There is no way to ride a motorcycle even semi regularly without having had to panic stop. I try to practice my panic stops quite often. And the last one was no practice, it was in traffic, and I have to say the ABS system worked very nicely, a definite boon when working properly.
Had one of the brakes not worked and gone hard, I'm pretty sure it would not have ended as well.
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Offline kd

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #99 on: February 17, 2018, 07:55:03 AM »
I'm not supporting HD in their in my opinion poor ABS design. However I have three choices, get rid of the bike, convert to non-ABS, take on the task of bleeding the system myself with the proper tools. I'm currently doing choice number three. I don't agree with how the system works and potentially can fail. If that overwhelms me, then I need to execute choice one or choice two. But to believe that HD will in anyway be bringing all of these bikes in for some new system, forget it, not going to happen. So as I said, we have to make one of the three choices if this is a concern for us. 


I am somewhat with you Ohio. We all are stuck with this situation for now and have to make some choices. I would like to think for the short term. As I stated to another member, I have worked for decades for government in the motor vehicle safety division. One thing I learned is if you want action from a politician (the motor vehicle safety division folks are seen to be an arm of the politician), you have to have or threaten  :wink:  a public lobby that puts them in the hot seat. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. That is why I felt I should speak up in this thread. I hate to see acceptance of this problem and the blame for any death or injury being placed on the owner. Now I am going to back away before I say something that gets this thread some Shed time.  :smiled:
KD

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #100 on: February 17, 2018, 08:00:25 AM »
KD, I think we are all in agreement. The system is a compromise to begin with by favoring form over function, and then allowing the fail safe default to be fail but not safe.
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Offline Ohio HD

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #101 on: February 17, 2018, 08:06:25 AM »
I'm not supporting HD in their in my opinion poor ABS design. However I have three choices, get rid of the bike, convert to non-ABS, take on the task of bleeding the system myself with the proper tools. I'm currently doing choice number three. I don't agree with how the system works and potentially can fail. If that overwhelms me, then I need to execute choice one or choice two. But to believe that HD will in anyway be bringing all of these bikes in for some new system, forget it, not going to happen. So as I said, we have to make one of the three choices if this is a concern for us. 


I am somewhat with you Ohio. We all are stuck with this situation for now and have to make some choices. I would like to think for the short term. As I stated to another member, I have worked for decades for government in the motor vehicle safety division. One thing I learned is if you want action from a politician (the motor vehicle safety division folks are seen to be an arm of the politician), you have to have or threaten  :wink:  a public lobby that puts them in the hot seat. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. That is why I felt I should speak up in this thread. I hate to see acceptance of this problem and the blame for any death or injury being placed on the owner. Now I am going to back away before I say something that gets this thread some Shed time.  :smiled:

My whole point is, no it's not right, and I don't see any changes coming that will effect the existing bikes positively. It's not about acceptance, it's about what I perceive to be reality. Even if we pressure those that can make changes, you still need to make choice one through three if you're still riding the bike, and want to try to maintain safety.

Always remember, cooler heads prevail, thread lockers fail.    :smilep:

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Offline rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #102 on: February 17, 2018, 08:43:06 AM »
I'm not supporting HD in their in my opinion poor ABS design. However I have three choices, get rid of the bike, convert to non-ABS, take on the task of bleeding the system myself with the proper tools. I'm currently doing choice number three. I don't agree with how the system works and potentially can fail. If that overwhelms me, then I need to execute choice one or choice two. But to believe that HD will in anyway be bringing all of these bikes in for some new system, forget it, not going to happen. So as I said, we have to make one of the three choices if this is a concern for us. 


I am somewhat with you Ohio. We all are stuck with this situation for now and have to make some choices. I would like to think for the short term. As I stated to another member, I have worked for decades for government in the motor vehicle safety division. One thing I learned is if you want action from a politician (the motor vehicle safety division folks are seen to be an arm of the politician), you have to have or threaten  :wink:  a public lobby that puts them in the hot seat. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. That is why I felt I should speak up in this thread. I hate to see acceptance of this problem and the blame for any death or injury being placed on the owner. Now I am going to back away before I say something that gets this thread some Shed time.  :smiled:

My whole point is, no it's not right, and I don't see any changes coming that will effect the existing bikes positively. It's not about acceptance, it's about what I perceive to be reality. Even if we pressure those that can make changes, you still need to make choice one through three if you're still riding the bike, and want to try to maintain safety.

Always remember, cooler heads prevail, thread lockers fail.    :smilep:
Sadly, the reality is,  to maintain safety, or be fail safe it should be converted to non abs on those existing systems or replaced with units that do not deactivate normal braking effect in case of ABS failure. Not sure HD have those. Fluid flush and cycling does not alter the current design flaw of the system.  An ABS system should be an enhancement and not disable normal braking if it fails. One is life threatening and the other a nuisance. I will do 3 for now, although if I had half a brain, 2 would make the most sense. This was typed with a cool head. :wink:
Ron

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #103 on: February 17, 2018, 08:50:26 AM »
I'm not supporting HD in their in my opinion poor ABS design. However I have three choices, get rid of the bike, convert to non-ABS, take on the task of bleeding the system myself with the proper tools. I'm currently doing choice number three. I don't agree with how the system works and potentially can fail. If that overwhelms me, then I need to execute choice one or choice two. But to believe that HD will in anyway be bringing all of these bikes in for some new system, forget it, not going to happen. So as I said, we have to make one of the three choices if this is a concern for us. 


I am somewhat with you Ohio. We all are stuck with this situation for now and have to make some choices. I would like to think for the short term. As I stated to another member, I have worked for decades for government in the motor vehicle safety division. One thing I learned is if you want action from a politician (the motor vehicle safety division folks are seen to be an arm of the politician), you have to have or threaten  :wink:  a public lobby that puts them in the hot seat. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. That is why I felt I should speak up in this thread. I hate to see acceptance of this problem and the blame for any death or injury being placed on the owner. Now I am going to back away before I say something that gets this thread some Shed time.  :smiled:

My whole point is, no it's not right, and I don't see any changes coming that will effect the existing bikes positively. It's not about acceptance, it's about what I perceive to be reality. Even if we pressure those that can make changes, you still need to make choice one through three if you're still riding the bike, and want to try to maintain safety.

Always remember, cooler heads prevail, thread lockers fail.    :smilep:
Sadly, the reality is,  to maintain safety, or be fail safe it should be converted to non abs on those existing systems or replaced with units that do not deactivate normal braking effect in case of ABS failure. Not sure HD have those. Fluid flush and cycling does not alter the current design flaw of the system.  An ABS system should be an enhancement and not disable normal braking if it fails. One is life threatening and the other a nuisance. I will do 3 for now, although if I had half a brain, 2 would make the most sense. This was typed with a cool head. :wink:
Ron


 :SM:   There you go!  I'm as you know doing three as well. It's on my mind to do number two, we'll see.

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Offline rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #104 on: February 17, 2018, 08:57:38 AM »
I'm not supporting HD in their in my opinion poor ABS design. However I have three choices, get rid of the bike, convert to non-ABS, take on the task of bleeding the system myself with the proper tools. I'm currently doing choice number three. I don't agree with how the system works and potentially can fail. If that overwhelms me, then I need to execute choice one or choice two. But to believe that HD will in anyway be bringing all of these bikes in for some new system, forget it, not going to happen. So as I said, we have to make one of the three choices if this is a concern for us. 


I am somewhat with you Ohio. We all are stuck with this situation for now and have to make some choices. I would like to think for the short term. As I stated to another member, I have worked for decades for government in the motor vehicle safety division. One thing I learned is if you want action from a politician (the motor vehicle safety division folks are seen to be an arm of the politician), you have to have or threaten  :wink:  a public lobby that puts them in the hot seat. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. That is why I felt I should speak up in this thread. I hate to see acceptance of this problem and the blame for any death or injury being placed on the owner. Now I am going to back away before I say something that gets this thread some Shed time.  :smiled:

My whole point is, no it's not right, and I don't see any changes coming that will effect the existing bikes positively. It's not about acceptance, it's about what I perceive to be reality. Even if we pressure those that can make changes, you still need to make choice one through three if you're still riding the bike, and want to try to maintain safety.

Always remember, cooler heads prevail, thread lockers fail.    :smilep:
Sadly, the reality is,  to maintain safety, or be fail safe it should be converted to non abs on those existing systems or replaced with units that do not deactivate normal braking effect in case of ABS failure. Not sure HD have those. Fluid flush and cycling does not alter the current design flaw of the system.  An ABS system should be an enhancement and not disable normal braking if it fails. One is life threatening and the other a nuisance. I will do 3 for now, although if I had half a brain, 2 would make the most sense. This was typed with a cool head. :wink:
Ron


 :SM:   There you go!  I'm as you know doing three as well. It's on my mind to do number two, we'll see.
My luck, the damn HCU will lock up when I run the TS cycling program. Then it's #2 for me.
Ron

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #105 on: February 17, 2018, 09:35:01 AM »
Quote
My luck, the damn HCU will lock up when I run the TS cycling program. Then it's #2 for me.
Ron

Actually, that would be the best time for it to happen I think.

Some very good discussion in this thread. I agree it boils down to 3 choices in the end. Although there is somewhat of a 4th choice. A person could just pop for a new HCU and either do or have done the proper maintenance from then on. My problem with #3 is even with proper maintenance, I just don't think I can bring myself to completely trust that system. Especially since I know I have dropped the ball on regularly maintaining it and mine is coming up on 8 yrs. old. I wouldn't worry if it failed ABS only, but to fail the way it does is a big worry.

I think of all the bikes I've owned and miles I've ridden without ABS and it kinda makes choosing #2 easy for me.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 12:25:21 PM by FSG »
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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #106 on: February 17, 2018, 10:19:36 AM »
I agree on the service intervals,  but the real problem is the abs not activating the pistons without having to go to the dealer for the dt to do it or you have to buy your own device.  It does not say in the book to exercise the abs just change fluid.  a definite design flaw.  I do flex mine but I have some buds that won't due to fear of falling and they have never had to use their abs

What book are you reading?  Step 11 from the manual as per bleeding the brakes:

Quote
If vehicle is ABS equiped, connect DIGITAL TECHNITION II (part # bla blah ) and follow the brake bleeding procedure.

It also lists the Digi Tech is a needed tool right at the beginning of the section, and has a bold warning paragraph to the effect that not using the proper procedure can result in maiming or death ect ect. 

The only thing not covered is the actual procedure with the digi tech.  But since you can't buy the Digi Tech, there reall isn't any need to tell you how to use it.
Not in my book. I've checked twice to see if they covered their ass.
Ron

Again, what book?
As spelled out in the new bike owners manual everyone gets,  for all service intervals. Regarding brake fluid as Brian pointed out, Note 4 says every 2 years. If Note 1 was also added that would be a different story regarding fluid service and possible cycling of the unit. I doubt even then it would have been cycled with DT, since the cause was unknown. Clearly states the owners manual the owner was never obligated to go to the dealer for this service. There was no number 1 in the brake fluid service interval.
Ron

OK that's part of your issue.  You are using an owners manual and expecting to find service procedure information.  The owners manual only lists the need to preform the service.  The owners manual does give instruction on some simple service items that an owner might choose to do at home, but it in no way passes as a service manual.  And it does not mention any sort of brake fluid flush procedure, only the need to have it done.  It's on the person doing the work to follow the proper procedures for any work performed.   Said brake flush being clearly described in the service manual.  If you took it to the dealer and they didn't preform the service, or preformed it improperly, that's one thing.  But not having it done do to not knowing the correct procedure is another.     

The need for the 2 year flush is listed on page 256 of my owners manual in the foot notes. 

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #107 on: February 17, 2018, 10:21:22 AM »

Some very good discussion in this thread. I agree it boils down to 3 choices in the end. Although there is somewhat of a 4th choice. A person could just pop for a new HCU and either do or have done the proper maintenance from then on. My problem with #3 is even with proper maintenance, I just don't think I can bring myself to completely trust that system. Especially since I know I have dropped the ball on regularly maintaining it and mine is coming up on 8 yrs. old. I wouldn't worry if it failed ABS only, but to fail the way it does is a big worry.

I think of all the bikes I've owned and miles I've ridden without ABS and it kinda makes choosing #2 easy for me.

Mine was 8 years old as well before it ever got it's first correct system bleed. And when you use the tool to cycle the ABS unit, you have your foot on the pedal, or hand pulling the front brake, and you feel that the system is getting worked over. Maybe all that is needed is to do this religiously, true it doesn't change the design flaw. But my plans going forward is to do this every spring, this is a situation where more is probably better.

But #2 is a very solid solution too.
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Offline kd

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #108 on: February 17, 2018, 10:30:46 AM »
Good ol #2. I would have thought preacher son's sensors would have picked that up and had him commenting on this #2 brake system.  :hyst: :hyst:
KD

Offline Thermodyne

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #109 on: February 17, 2018, 11:06:47 AM »
Here is how I see this whole thing up to this point.  There is an issue with the original unit and the valve sticking.  It is in no small part related to improper maintenance.  But could have probably been avoided with a better design.  The valve is actuated bay a magnet and returned by a spring, so it prolly doesn't take much to make it stick. 

This issues was probably addressed when Bosch started sourcing the units, since those units were not included in the service campaign.  And the older units are being addressed by providing an updated fluid and a flush service free of charge.  Some owners are not happy with this as a resolution.

First, let me say that I wish the MoCo would go so far on some of their other early failure issues. 

But in relation to the ABS unit, if your scooter is covered, then it's already 7 or more years old.   At 7 years would you be bitching if the master cylinder failed.  Or the caliper leaked.  If you have an ABS failure in your 7 year old car, it the factory going to eat it?  The only bitch I see here would be for the folks who let the dealer do all their service work and had to pay to have the ABS replaced.  They should be reimbursed.  And I'll bet that all it takes is receipts to get that check in the mail.   

So what's a person to do?  IMHO Go get your free service, then if you still can't sleep at night, replace the valve body with a Bosch unit.  As repairs go on Harleys, it's not that expensive.  And as failures go, it's actually rather rare.  Nothing close to compensators, wheel bearings or wet radios. 

 

Offline rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #110 on: February 17, 2018, 11:58:14 AM »
I agree on the service intervals,  but the real problem is the abs not activating the pistons without having to go to the dealer for the dt to do it or you have to buy your own device.  It does not say in the book to exercise the abs just change fluid.  a definite design flaw.  I do flex mine but I have some buds that won't due to fear of falling and they have never had to use their abs

What book are you reading?  Step 11 from the manual as per bleeding the brakes:

Quote
If vehicle is ABS equiped, connect DIGITAL TECHNITION II (part # bla blah ) and follow the brake bleeding procedure.

It also lists the Digi Tech is a needed tool right at the beginning of the section, and has a bold warning paragraph to the effect that not using the proper procedure can result in maiming or death ect ect. 

The only thing not covered is the actual procedure with the digi tech.  But since you can't buy the Digi Tech, there reall isn't any need to tell you how to use it.
Not in my book. I've checked twice to see if they covered their ass.
Ron

Again, what book?
As spelled out in the new bike owners manual everyone gets,  for all service intervals. Regarding brake fluid as Brian pointed out, Note 4 says every 2 years. If Note 1 was also added that would be a different story regarding fluid service and possible cycling of the unit. I doubt even then it would have been cycled with DT, since the cause was unknown. Clearly states the owners manual the owner was never obligated to go to the dealer for this service. There was no number 1 in the brake fluid service interval.
Ron

OK that's part of your issue.  You are using an owners manual and expecting to find service procedure information.  The owners manual only lists the need to preform the service.  The owners manual does give instruction on some simple service items that an owner might choose to do at home, but it in no way passes as a service manual.  And it does not mention any sort of brake fluid flush procedure, only the need to have it done.  It's on the person doing the work to follow the proper procedures for any work performed.   Said brake flush being clearly described in the service manual.  If you took it to the dealer and they didn't preform the service, or preformed it improperly, that's one thing.  But not having it done do to not knowing the correct procedure is another.     

The need for the 2 year flush is listed on page 256 of my owners manual in the foot notes.
Didn't know I had a problem. I have both owners and service manual as well as Twinscan 2 ABS. My point was the average owner doesn't buy a service manual and the owners manual makes no reference for the need to cycle the ABS. See HD dealer is pretty meaninless to most of us. :wink: Then again, the service manual warning only makes reference to using Digital Tech for brake bleeding if any component is loosened or replaced ,where air can be induced, which does require the cycling to bleed the system correctly. Fluid flush can be done without inducing air and the need to bleed. Let's face it, it could have been written better.
Ron

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #111 on: February 17, 2018, 12:06:08 PM »
The real bitch for me is not the failure of the part, it's the no brake issue upon failure of the part.
If I pull the fuse on the abs in the car, I have no abs. If I pull the fuse on the bike, I have no abs. But this does not guarantee that the unit will not freeze up, causing a no brake issue. The car theoretically will not freeze up.
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Offline rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #112 on: February 17, 2018, 12:23:23 PM »
The real bitch for me is not the failure of the part, it's the no brake issue upon failure of the part.
If I pull the fuse on the abs in the car, I have no abs. If I pull the fuse on the bike, I have no abs. But this does not guarantee that the unit will not freeze up, causing a no brake issue. The car theoretically will not freeze up.
I would suspect the failure happens during an ABS event and it plugs or sticks. Otherwise it just sits there looking dumb. Theoretically if fuse is pulled when all is well the HCU shouldn't go south. I wouldn't bet my life on that though.
Ron

Offline moose

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #113 on: February 17, 2018, 12:27:14 PM »
just a wild thought if we all complained to the NTSB about no brakes when the abs locks up   maybe just maybe they will come up with a position that HD must replace with one that will not fail.  like is said before my rear pedal gets hard once in a while than goes back to normal
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Offline rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #114 on: February 17, 2018, 12:32:35 PM »
just a wild thought if we all complained to the NTSB about no brakes when the abs locks up   maybe just maybe they will come up with a position that HD must replace with one that will not fail.  like is said before my rear pedal gets hard once in a while than goes back to normal
One thing I've noticed. HD owners don't want to rock the mother ship. Now if this was a Honda or Yamaha,  they would have burned the factory down by now. :hyst:
Ron

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #115 on: February 17, 2018, 01:15:44 PM »
The real bitch for me is not the failure of the part, it's the no brake issue upon failure of the part.
If I pull the fuse on the abs in the car, I have no abs. If I pull the fuse on the bike, I have no abs. But this does not guarantee that the unit will not freeze up, causing a no brake issue. The car theoretically will not freeze up.
I would suspect the failure happens during an ABS event and it plugs or sticks. Otherwise it just sits there looking dumb. Theoretically if fuse is pulled when all is well the HCU shouldn't go south. I wouldn't bet my life on that though.
Ron

I agree. From what I can determine from the plumbing schematics and the bleed/activation procedure, if it never activates it should never stick a valve and close out the normal brake loop. "Should" being the operative term here. Like you, I won't bet my life on it though.
Greg

Offline Thermodyne

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #116 on: February 17, 2018, 02:39:19 PM »
The real bitch for me is not the failure of the part, it's the no brake issue upon failure of the part.
If I pull the fuse on the abs in the car, I have no abs. If I pull the fuse on the bike, I have no abs. But this does not guarantee that the unit will not freeze up, causing a no brake issue. The car theoretically will not freeze up.


Actually, pulling the fuse would more or less guarantee that it would not fail.  The valve would never be actuated, so it would remain in the parked position, or in a non ABS event position.  It would also set a code. 

Contrary to what some are posting, the ABS unit does have an initialization process when the key is turned on, just like a car.  It is basically a communication test between the sensors, HCU and ECU.  And as soon as it sees a speed greater than 10 mph with no brake applied it runs a second cycle, part of which is energizing each of the valves. 

This is where I see the design defect.  There is no feedback as to the valve function.  Only that the solenoids energized.   The are no valve position sensors or pressure sensors in the system other than the stop lamp switches.  And it also does not require the brakes to be test applied.  Although proper riding procedure would dictate that you tried the brakes before starting the scooter.  I'm sure we all actually remember to do that every time we fire em up.  Or not.   Basically it tests the electrical part of the system, and assumes that the mechanical part functions properly.

There is a lot more to the system than that troublesome valve body. There is the control head, relays, diode packs, and lots of stuff that is going to start failing as these things age. 

There are 40 pages of diagnostics and explanations in the manual, should be mandatory reading if plan on doing your own ABS work.   
     

Offline Thermodyne

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #117 on: February 17, 2018, 02:43:22 PM »
The real bitch for me is not the failure of the part, it's the no brake issue upon failure of the part.
If I pull the fuse on the abs in the car, I have no abs. If I pull the fuse on the bike, I have no abs. But this does not guarantee that the unit will not freeze up, causing a no brake issue. The car theoretically will not freeze up.
I would suspect the failure happens during an ABS event and it plugs or sticks. Otherwise it just sits there looking dumb. Theoretically if fuse is pulled when all is well the HCU shouldn't go south. I wouldn't bet my life on that though.
Ron

Of the failures that I have read of, most were reported as occurring shortly after starting the scooter.   So they are probably related to the self test that occurs once you pull away.

Offline rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #118 on: February 17, 2018, 03:40:54 PM »
The real bitch for me is not the failure of the part, it's the no brake issue upon failure of the part.
If I pull the fuse on the abs in the car, I have no abs. If I pull the fuse on the bike, I have no abs. But this does not guarantee that the unit will not freeze up, causing a no brake issue. The car theoretically will not freeze up.
I would suspect the failure happens during an ABS event and it plugs or sticks. Otherwise it just sits there looking dumb. Theoretically if fuse is pulled when all is well the HCU shouldn't go south. I wouldn't bet my life on that though.
Ron

Of the failures that I have read of, most were reported as occurring shortly after starting the scooter.   So they are probably related to the self test that occurs once you pull away.
Are you saying there is a mini valve cycle during the self test where the valving could fail at that point? That should be the only way for that to happen. My impression was the self test just looks at electrical, sensors and such.
Codes also,  from what I know are strictly electrical and nothing to do with the actual HCU as it has no way to read it's function.
Ron

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #119 on: February 17, 2018, 04:55:17 PM »
This issues was probably addressed when Bosch started sourcing the units, since those units were not included in the service campaign.

When you talk about the Bosch unit, is that the unit used on the 2012 & 2013 models?  Was there a change between the 2011 & earlier units and the 2012 & 2013 units that is not reflected in the parts numbers?  It appears that the same unit was used from 2009 - 2013.  2008 used a different part number.  I know that the 2014 & up units are different but those models also have the "Linked" braking.

Offline FSG

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #120 on: February 17, 2018, 07:17:23 PM »
Well Campaign number 171 has finally been released in Oz

https://i.imgur.com/69rFudK.png

There are 3,692 VINs in that referred to xlsx   :emsad:

Offline REDDHOGG

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #121 on: February 17, 2018, 07:21:51 PM »
Not trying to hijack,,but is the abs all that beneficial on these bikes? ,I haven't ridden one

Offline REDDHOGG

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #122 on: February 17, 2018, 07:22:19 PM »
Sorry
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 07:26:47 PM by REDDHOGG »

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #123 on: February 17, 2018, 07:49:50 PM »
Not trying to hijack,,but is the abs all that beneficial on these bikes? ,I haven't ridden one

The abs is pretty nice in most situations. I had to hammer the brakes last fall, and they worked just the way they were supposed to. I was able to hit them hard, no lockup, and actually steer under full brake.
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Offline louloupa

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #124 on: February 18, 2018, 10:13:12 AM »


this is the normal brake circuit . The "apply valve" is off, so, the liquid can pass .

When you turn the  key ON , the " apply valve" moves .   If it gets stuck , the circuit is shut and there in no brake anymore .

Offline Thermodyne

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #125 on: February 18, 2018, 11:03:32 AM »
The real bitch for me is not the failure of the part, it's the no brake issue upon failure of the part.
If I pull the fuse on the abs in the car, I have no abs. If I pull the fuse on the bike, I have no abs. But this does not guarantee that the unit will not freeze up, causing a no brake issue. The car theoretically will not freeze up.
I would suspect the failure happens during an ABS event and it plugs or sticks. Otherwise it just sits there looking dumb. Theoretically if fuse is pulled when all is well the HCU shouldn't go south. I wouldn't bet my life on that though.
Ron

Of the failures that I have read of, most were reported as occurring shortly after starting the scooter.   So they are probably related to the self test that occurs once you pull away.
Are you saying there is a mini valve cycle during the self test where the valving could fail at that point? That should be the only way for that to happen. My impression was the self test just looks at electrical, sensors and such.
Codes also,  from what I know are strictly electrical and nothing to do with the actual HCU as it has no way to read it's function.
Ron

Yes, after starting the scooter, the first time it sees 10 mph with no brake applied, it cycles the valves.  And if you don't create an ABS event, that's the only time the valves are cycled.  I don't know if it just pops them all at once or runs through one at a time, that is not covered in the manual. 

Another thing to note, even with the after market interface, we still can not completely service the ABS system as owners/indy's.  Replacing the control head requires using the degi tech to mate it with the ecm. 

 
 

Offline Thermodyne

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #126 on: February 18, 2018, 11:08:30 AM »
This issues was probably addressed when Bosch started sourcing the units, since those units were not included in the service campaign.

When you talk about the Bosch unit, is that the unit used on the 2012 & 2013 models?  Was there a change between the 2011 & earlier units and the 2012 & 2013 units that is not reflected in the parts numbers?  It appears that the same unit was used from 2009 - 2013.  2008 used a different part number.  I know that the 2014 & up units are different but those models also have the "Linked" braking.

At some point Bosch started building the units.  12's got them and service units are now made by Bosch.  The MoCo did not reflect this in the PN by adding a letter suffix as was the normal way of showing any change in a part or source.  I would suspect that they were trying to hide the fact that they had recognized an issue in the original units.   

Offline Thermodyne

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #127 on: February 18, 2018, 11:12:53 AM »


this is the normal brake circuit . The "apply valve" is off, so, the liquid can pass .

When you turn the  key ON , the " apply valve" moves .   If it gets stuck , the circuit is shut and there in no brake anymore .


Not exactly how it works. 

Its key on and 10mph with no brake apply before the valve is stroked for the self test.  And its just stroked, on and back off.  The normal position is off, which bypasses the ABS unit.  Key on or key off it's parked.  Only time it moves is the self test and an ABS event.   

Offline rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #128 on: February 18, 2018, 11:25:55 AM »
The real bitch for me is not the failure of the part, it's the no brake issue upon failure of the part.
If I pull the fuse on the abs in the car, I have no abs. If I pull the fuse on the bike, I have no abs. But this does not guarantee that the unit will not freeze up, causing a no brake issue. The car theoretically will not freeze up.
I would suspect the failure happens during an ABS event and it plugs or sticks. Otherwise it just sits there looking dumb. Theoretically if fuse is pulled when all is well the HCU shouldn't go south. I wouldn't bet my life on that though.
Ron

Of the failures that I have read of, most were reported as occurring shortly after starting the scooter.   So they are probably related to the self test that occurs once you pull away.
Are you saying there is a mini valve cycle during the self test where the valving could fail at that point? That should be the only way for that to happen. My impression was the self test just looks at electrical, sensors and such.
Codes also,  from what I know are strictly electrical and nothing to do with the actual HCU as it has no way to read it's function.
Ron

Yes, after starting the scooter, the first time it sees 10 mph with no brake applied, it cycles the valves.  And if you don't create an ABS event, that's the only time the valves are cycled.  I don't know if it just pops them all at once or runs through one at a time, that is not covered in the manual. 

Another thing to note, even with the after market interface, we still can not completely service the ABS system as owners/indy's.  Replacing the control head requires using the degi tech to mate it with the ecm.
Oh great. Short of changing lines or related parts that could induce air into the module and bleed the brake system , a standard flush, ride the bike with a few key on events and flush it again is all that's needed with this self cycle feature. I realize not practical for a dealer but this is DIY doable.  Sounds like Twinscan isn't needed for standard flush then, just for a full blown brake bleed, where air could be induced into the HCU. Why would a HCU swap require an ECM mate as it's separate from the electrical control unit?
Ron
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 11:33:18 AM by rbabos »

Offline Thermodyne

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #129 on: February 18, 2018, 11:39:44 AM »
So for those of us riding with these early units, what can be done to avoid getting bent over by a dealer out on the slab somewhere?

What about building a bridge line to jump around the valve body.  Just stack the banjo fittings and use a pair of double banjo bolts.  It would be enough to get you home with brakes on both ends of the scooter.  As well as being cheap and small enough to stash in the tool bag. 

Offline Thermodyne

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #130 on: February 18, 2018, 11:53:07 AM »
The real bitch for me is not the failure of the part, it's the no brake issue upon failure of the part.
If I pull the fuse on the abs in the car, I have no abs. If I pull the fuse on the bike, I have no abs. But this does not guarantee that the unit will not freeze up, causing a no brake issue. The car theoretically will not freeze up.
I would suspect the failure happens during an ABS event and it plugs or sticks. Otherwise it just sits there looking dumb. Theoretically if fuse is pulled when all is well the HCU shouldn't go south. I wouldn't bet my life on that though.
Ron

Of the failures that I have read of, most were reported as occurring shortly after starting the scooter.   So they are probably related to the self test that occurs once you pull away.
Are you saying there is a mini valve cycle during the self test where the valving could fail at that point? That should be the only way for that to happen. My impression was the self test just looks at electrical, sensors and such.
Codes also,  from what I know are strictly electrical and nothing to do with the actual HCU as it has no way to read it's function.
Ron

Yes, after starting the scooter, the first time it sees 10 mph with no brake applied, it cycles the valves.  And if you don't create an ABS event, that's the only time the valves are cycled.  I don't know if it just pops them all at once or runs through one at a time, that is not covered in the manual. 

Another thing to note, even with the after market interface, we still can not completely service the ABS system as owners/indy's.  Replacing the control head requires using the degi tech to mate it with the ecm.
Oh great. Short of changing lines or related parts that could induce air into the module and bleed the brake system , a standard flush, ride the bike with a few key on events and flush it again is all that's needed with this self cycle feature. I realize not practical for a dealer but this is DIY doable.  Sounds like Twinscan isn't needed for standard flush then, just for a full blown brake bleed, where air could be induced into the HCU. Why would a HCU swap require an ECM mate as it's separate from the electrical control unit?
Ron

Nope, its not doable.   

The self test is nothing like the flush procedure.  Look at this video of the rear brake flush.  In the first part the brake pedal is being depressed, any movement is from the ABS unit pushing fluid back and forth.  In the second part, the pedal is being pumped by hand.  There is a lot more than valve cycling or ABS pulsing goin on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY8vte3un5k&feature=youtu.be

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #131 on: February 18, 2018, 11:56:29 AM »
So for those of us riding with these early units, what can be done to avoid getting bent over by a dealer out on the slab somewhere?

What about building a bridge line to jump around the valve body.  Just stack the banjo fittings and use a pair of double banjo bolts.  It would be enough to get you home with brakes on both ends of the scooter.  As well as being cheap and small enough to stash in the tool bag.

Why stash it in the bag. Install it and leave it on.
Greg

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #132 on: February 18, 2018, 12:09:08 PM »
So for those of us riding with these early units, what can be done to avoid getting bent over by a dealer out on the slab somewhere?

What about building a bridge line to jump around the valve body.  Just stack the banjo fittings and use a pair of double banjo bolts.  It would be enough to get you home with brakes on both ends of the scooter.  As well as being cheap and small enough to stash in the tool bag.

Why stash it in the bag. Install it and leave it on.

 Agreed. Once it fails, it's a little late to be modifying it to make it work.
I understand the concept, but at that point, you know you only have one brake and can probably limp it home, unless out on a long road trip.
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Offline Ohio HD

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #133 on: February 18, 2018, 12:16:18 PM »
You better have everything you need to bleed the brakes once you put the bypass in. I doubt you'll get a shop to do that for you, they become a liable party if your bypass fails and you crash and hurt someone or yourself.
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Offline Maddo Snr

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #134 on: February 18, 2018, 03:47:12 PM »
Not trying to hijack,,but is the abs all that beneficial on these bikes? ,I haven't ridden one

The abs is pretty nice in most situations. I had to hammer the brakes last fall, and they worked just the way they were supposed to. I was able to hit them hard, no lockup, and actually steer under full brake.

Full force at the lever/pedal maybe but there's no way in the world you get even 1/2 normal braking effect in an ABS event.

For inexperienced riders, wet roads and freeway stops I can see a benefit. For back road touring I reckon they're dangerous.

Washboarded tar roads activate the ABS if you're not even close to locking the brakes. To be fair to HD, the BMW system gets caught out in the exact same fashion.

Offline Thermodyne

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #135 on: February 18, 2018, 05:40:24 PM »
So for those of us riding with these early units, what can be done to avoid getting bent over by a dealer out on the slab somewhere?

What about building a bridge line to jump around the valve body.  Just stack the banjo fittings and use a pair of double banjo bolts.  It would be enough to get you home with brakes on both ends of the scooter.  As well as being cheap and small enough to stash in the tool bag.

Why stash it in the bag. Install it and leave it on.

Then there wouldn't be any ABS function.  For all the bad mouthing, that ABS has saved me from some repairs, twice.  Once when a soccer mom pulled right out in front of me, All I had time to do was pucker up and grab the brakes.  The second time was trying to stop in the wet median grass after getting merged off the pavement.   

Offline Thermodyne

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #136 on: February 18, 2018, 05:48:07 PM »
You better have everything you need to bleed the brakes once you put the bypass in. I doubt you'll get a shop to do that for you, they become a liable party if your bypass fails and you crash and hurt someone or yourself.

Why would the bypass fail?  Long as you built a quality line it would be fine.  Stacking banjo fittings is no big deal. 

3/8th wrench and a bottle a brake fluid to bleed it.  Little piece of hose if you want to try and do it neatly.  Phillip's for the cylinder lid.  I'm thinking if you can do the bypass, the bleeding wont be an issue.  The front will gravity bleed, on the rear you might want some help.   

Offline Hossamania

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #137 on: February 18, 2018, 05:57:53 PM »
Not trying to hijack,,but is the abs all that beneficial on these bikes? ,I haven't ridden one

The abs is pretty nice in most situations. I had to hammer the brakes last fall, and they worked just the way they were supposed to. I was able to hit them hard, no lockup, and actually steer under full brake.

Full force at the lever/pedal maybe but there's no way in the world you get even 1/2 normal braking effect in an ABS event.

For inexperienced riders, wet roads and freeway stops I can see a benefit. For back road touring I reckon they're dangerous.

Washboarded tar roads activate the ABS if you're not even close to locking the brakes. To be fair to HD, the BMW system gets caught out in the exact same fashion.

I think under normal circumstances, abs can stop faster than regular brakes for an average rider. Especially at the end of a long day of riding, maybe your hands are a bit cramped. I agree that imperfect surfaces will prolong braking. Abs will work better for most in 90% or more braking situations.
Having said that, it has been proven that regular brakes can be made to stop faster than abs brakes, but this is with pro riders, or very seasoned, practiced riders.
With most of the people you see riding, which category do you think they fall into?
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Offline Thermodyne

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #138 on: February 18, 2018, 06:01:55 PM »
So for those of us riding with these early units, what can be done to avoid getting bent over by a dealer out on the slab somewhere?

What about building a bridge line to jump around the valve body.  Just stack the banjo fittings and use a pair of double banjo bolts.  It would be enough to get you home with brakes on both ends of the scooter.  As well as being cheap and small enough to stash in the tool bag.

Why stash it in the bag. Install it and leave it on.

 Agreed. Once it fails, it's a little late to be modifying it to make it work.
I understand the concept, but at that point, you know you only have one brake and can probably limp it home, unless out on a long road trip.

It's the long trips where I worry.   Every time I get west of that big river, I start hearing gremlins.
For a day trip I can hire a flat bed or call in a favor from a friend with a trailer.  Lots of options.  Might even limp it home for a 100 miles or so.  But when you get way down the road, the options start to get limited and involve more time and more money.       

And I doubt its the sort of thing that you'll get fixed next day.  So you could be cooling your jets for four or five days too. 

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #139 on: February 18, 2018, 06:52:12 PM »
You better have everything you need to bleed the brakes once you put the bypass in. I doubt you'll get a shop to do that for you, they become a liable party if your bypass fails and you crash and hurt someone or yourself.

Why would the bypass fail?  Long as you built a quality line it would be fine.  Stacking banjo fittings is no big deal. 

3/8th wrench and a bottle a brake fluid to bleed it.  Little piece of hose if you want to try and do it neatly.  Phillip's for the cylinder lid.  I'm thinking if you can do the bypass, the bleeding wont be an issue.  The front will gravity bleed, on the rear you might want some help.

Why would it fail? Maybe it wasn't made well, I've seen a lot of junk that other folks have done to their bikes. My point is on the road on a trip, don't expect a shop to do a work around like that.
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Offline Maddo Snr

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #140 on: February 18, 2018, 08:55:34 PM »
Not trying to hijack,,but is the abs all that beneficial on these bikes? ,I haven't ridden one

The abs is pretty nice in most situations. I had to hammer the brakes last fall, and they worked just the way they were supposed to. I was able to hit them hard, no lockup, and actually steer under full brake.

Full force at the lever/pedal maybe but there's no way in the world you get even 1/2 normal braking effect in an ABS event.

For inexperienced riders, wet roads and freeway stops I can see a benefit. For back road touring I reckon they're dangerous.

Washboarded tar roads activate the ABS if you're not even close to locking the brakes. To be fair to HD, the BMW system gets caught out in the exact same fashion.

I think under normal circumstances, abs can stop faster than regular brakes for an average rider. Especially at the end of a long day of riding, maybe your hands are a bit cramped. I agree that imperfect surfaces will prolong braking. Abs will work better for most in 90% or more braking situations.
Having said that, it has been proven that regular brakes can be made to stop faster than abs brakes, but this is with pro riders, or very seasoned, practiced riders.
With most of the people you see riding, which category do you think they fall into?

I'm a lot more concerned with ol' #1 than 'most people' Hoss.  :SM:

What you've said is pretty much spot-on. The thing punters need to realise is that under ABS a HD brakes very poorly. I reckon HDs system darn near doubles braking distance. Folks used to their car ABS may well be caught out by the bike.

Next warm day I'll go out and compare ABS Vs Cadence braking distances to get a real-life handle on it...

Offline Beave

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #141 on: February 19, 2018, 06:04:20 AM »
While I do not own an ABS HD, as an MSF Instructor I have witnesses hundreds of ABS demos over the years on sand and on dry pavement.  On pavement the first BMW’s would leave foot long skid marks spaced about a foot apart.  As the systems improved the marks and gaps have shrunk to where the latest systems from both BMW and HD do not leave a discernable mark on dry pavement.  It is pretty obvious that the new systems cycle much faster than early systems. I was amazed that the demo-riders could overcome their fear of falling and grab a hand full of front brake even when on sand.  They told me it took much practice to overcome years of progressive braking techniques.  These ABS brakes work best when we panic, ignore the road surface conditions, and just grab and stomp; exactly the opposite of the progressive squeeze/press we learned for years. It seems to me the braking practice may even be more important with ABS as the feel and response is so much different than what we were used to.  If you are afraid to engage ABS in practice, you probably should not be riding.  It is amazing to watch these ABS bikes can stop on sand.  Not only do they maintain control, but they stop amazingly quick.  On the other hand if you engage ABS on a regular basis as part of your normal routine you probably need to look ahead farther and work on your mental riding skills. Panic stops should be practiced often but rarely required.
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Online Ancient

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #142 on: February 19, 2018, 06:09:41 AM »
So for those of us riding with these early units, what can be done to avoid getting bent over by a dealer out on the slab somewhere?

What about building a bridge line to jump around the valve body.  Just stack the banjo fittings and use a pair of double banjo bolts.  It would be enough to get you home with brakes on both ends of the scooter.  As well as being cheap and small enough to stash in the tool bag.

Why stash it in the bag. Install it and leave it on.

Then there wouldn't be any ABS function.  For all the bad mouthing, that ABS has saved me from some repairs, twice.  Once when a soccer mom pulled right out in front of me, All I had time to do was pucker up and grab the brakes.  The second time was trying to stop in the wet median grass after getting merged off the pavement.   

Yes, that was my intent. My thought is as long as I can reliably depend on the ABS functioning as it was intended then no action other than maintenance is warranted on my part. But when I know there is a question as to the system reliability and it's failure can and has removed some or all braking ability then I feel I have to take action to remedy that possibility. Not giving it the chance to fail is one option.

As I've said before, if it just failed itself and left me with standard braking, well, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. But it doesn't. And however minuscule the odds are of having a failure I'd just as soon not even play that lottery.
Greg

Offline Moparnut72

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #143 on: February 19, 2018, 07:18:53 AM »
While I do not own an ABS HD, as an MSF Instructor I have witnesses hundreds of ABS demos over the years on sand and on dry pavement.  On pavement the first BMW’s would leave foot long skid marks spaced about a foot apart.  As the systems improved the marks and gaps have shrunk to where the latest systems from both BMW and HD do not leave a discernable mark on dry pavement.  It is pretty obvious that the new systems cycle much faster than early systems. I was amazed that the demo-riders could overcome their fear of falling and grab a hand full of front brake even when on sand.  They told me it took much practice to overcome years of progressive braking techniques.  These ABS brakes work best when we panic, ignore the road surface conditions, and just grab and stomp; exactly the opposite of the progressive squeeze/press we learned for years. It seems to me the braking practice may even be more important with ABS as the feel and response is so much different than what we were used to.  If you are afraid to engage ABS in practice, you probably should not be riding.  It is amazing to watch these ABS bikes can stop on sand.  Not only do they maintain control, but they stop amazingly quick.  On the other hand if you engage ABS on a regular basis as part of your normal routine you probably need to look ahead farther and work on your mental riding skills. Panic stops should be practiced often but rarely required.

It was hard for me to test the ABS on my bike. But I did in a gravel parking lot the first time. I was impressed. I have since used it once on pavement. I trust it now. I now know I can trust it in a panic situation.
kk
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Offline tomcat64

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #145 on: February 23, 2018, 01:09:45 PM »
Got my recall letter today.



yay. :dgust:
Greg

Offline freddie_ray

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #146 on: March 08, 2018, 05:53:45 PM »
Well I bit the bullet yesterday and had my brake fluid flushed on my 2012 FLHTK. My bike didn't have any braking issues, and I don'y know if it was changed during my service contract that ended in 2015. The price I paid is a small amount to pay instead of spending $700 on a new module.

Freddie_ray :scoot:

Offline Maddo Snr

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #147 on: March 08, 2018, 10:32:00 PM »
Got my recall letter today.
yay. :dgust:

Mine was booked in for today but the dealer rang me to cancel.

Seems there's no HD brake fluid in the country!

Australia isn't like the US, all mandated recalls here are 100% free.

I swap my fluid every 6 months and it's always been spotless. I can see the Feds coming after the importer, especially after the Takata airbag scandal.

Offline Coyote

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #148 on: March 08, 2018, 10:34:10 PM »
Seems the HD brake fluid is just Syn Dot 4.  :scratch:
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Offline rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #149 on: March 09, 2018, 08:30:00 AM »
Seems the HD brake fluid is just Syn Dot 4.  :scratch:
Pretty much nothing out of the ordinary for DOT4. Spent quite a while researching fluids. 5.1 is one of the better ones for us ABS users but no gain in corrosion protection, only wet points. That's strictly a time frame deal from moisture and happens quicker with heat from racing applications because heat also breaks down the additives sooner. 5.1 shines a bit better for high heat demands in braking but that's it. Not really needed in a road bike.
While on my quest for the ultimate brake fliud and owning a Hyundai that had similar issues I found out they originally used DOT3 which has no anti-corrosion additives. Well, duh but likely was cheaper to buy. They switched to DOT4 in the recall which has the additive in all well known brands. They later started plating the pintles or valving as the final step to curb internal HCU corrosion. After chasing down several brands and no availability of the so called Platinum crap, I settled on a bottle of Hyundai DOT4 high performance. Not that it's the best but by then I've had enough brake fluid bs to last a life time and it was my last stop. Oddly enough it's bottled in your state. :scratch: Change it often and cycle the unit is the best overall solution, regardless for brand. Searching for brake fluid cure on any older HCU that has corrosion already, well that stuff peddled by HD won't fix anything, nor actually stop it in a new HCU if left in too long. Will be interesting to see what happens when these units fail after the recall service and they will over time. Round two for the NHTSA.
For me, it's Belray in the clutch side because I have it already and Hyundai in the ABS side because I just bought it . Done .
Ron

Offline Moparnut72

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #150 on: March 09, 2018, 09:07:49 AM »
I have a Ram HD pickup with the heavy duty Aisin transmission. Due to expected heavy towing Chrysler requires the fluid to be changed every 30K miles.They specify a Mopar branded fluid that sells for I think $28 a quart. The trans takes several quarts on a drain only. At 60K the pan needs to be dropped and the filter changed. I know that the Aisin Trans is made by Toyota and it turns out they require a certain spec on the fluid. Valvoline make a fluid that meets that spec at $5 a quart. Gotta keep an eye out for who requires what.
kk
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Offline Coyote

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #151 on: March 09, 2018, 09:09:05 AM »
Seems the HD brake fluid is just Syn Dot 4.  :scratch:
Pretty much nothing out of the ordinary for DOT4. Spent quite a while researching fluids. 5.1 is one of the better ones for us ABS users but no gain in corrosion protection, only wet points. That's strictly a time frame deal from moisture and happens quicker with heat from racing applications because heat also breaks down the additives sooner. 5.1 shines a bit better for high heat demands in braking but that's it. Not really needed in a road bike.
While on my quest for the ultimate brake fliud and owning a Hyundai that had similar issues I found out they originally used DOT3 which has no anti-corrosion additives. Well, duh but likely was cheaper to buy. They switched to DOT4 in the recall which has the additive in all well known brands. They later started plating the pintles or valving as the final step to curb internal HCU corrosion. After chasing down several brands and no availability of the so called Platinum crap, I settled on a bottle of Hyundai DOT4 high performance. Not that it's the best but by then I've had enough brake fluid bs to last a life time and it was my last stop. Oddly enough it's bottled in your state. :scratch: Change it often and cycle the unit is the best overall solution, regardless for brand. Searching for brake fluid cure on any older HCU that has corrosion already, well that stuff peddled by HD won't fix anything, nor actually stop it in a new HCU if left in too long. Will be interesting to see what happens when these units fail after the recall service and they will over time. Round two for the NHTSA.
For me, it's Belray in the clutch side because I have it already and Hyundai in the ABS side because I just bought it . Done .
Ron

And I think they will continue to fail when not serviced.

Well I bit the bullet yesterday and had my brake fluid flushed on my 2012 FLHTK. My bike didn't have any braking issues, and I don'y know if it was changed during my service contract that ended in 2015. The price I paid is a small amount to pay instead of spending $700 on a new module.

Freddie_ray :scoot:

I wouldn't hold my breath.  :wink:
I feel the need... for twisties with speed.

Offline markymark

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #152 on: March 09, 2018, 10:50:56 AM »
As a Dodge tech, I can tell you that the Aisin transmission iv very tough. Only seen 1 failure (vehicle had over 300K). very heavy duty

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #153 on: March 09, 2018, 05:52:40 PM »
I received my letter a few weeks ago. I threw it in a desk drawer....   

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Offline Moparnut72

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #154 on: March 10, 2018, 08:25:37 AM »
As a Dodge tech, I can tell you that the Aisin transmission iv very tough. Only seen 1 failure (vehicle had over 300K). very heavy duty

I was going to get a manual until I saw what the Aisin could do. Ram 3500 Dually, hauling beast. Got the 4.10 gears too.
kk
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Offline Hossamania

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #155 on: March 10, 2018, 08:31:58 AM »
This thread reminded me that I need to bleed the brakes on the truck again, but I needn't have worried. It will get done on my normal schedule of every couple years because I just blew out another rusty brake line. Right on schedule.
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Offline rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #156 on: March 10, 2018, 12:27:16 PM »
I received my letter a few weeks ago. I threw it in a desk drawer....
Being I have a 13, I'll have to wait for the next round of recalls. It will end up in the garbage. No dealer will ever touch my bike, free or otherwise.
Ron

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #157 on: March 10, 2018, 12:52:25 PM »
I received my letter a few weeks ago. I threw it in a desk drawer....
Being I have a 13, I'll have to wait for the next round of recalls. It will end up in the garbage. No dealer will ever touch my bike, free or otherwise.
Ron

We have a LOT of HD dealers around the Cincinnati area, like 8 or 9 within 100 miles. A few of them have a good wrench, and I did say 'a' good wrench. But no point taking it in when I can do it. As well if you request Steve Miller at HD of Cincinnati, you'll wait awhile, a lot of folks want him to do the work.
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Online Ancient

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #158 on: March 15, 2018, 11:45:50 AM »
Just got back from having my 11' done at Joplin. I was all primed to at least put up an argument if the HCU malfunctioned. No need, it functioned fine. 1 hr start to finish and out of there.
Greg

Offline Maddo Snr

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #159 on: March 26, 2018, 09:37:01 PM »
I had my '11 RK done today. My fluid was perfect (I freshen it up once per year including pulsing the ABS.

But... the fluid they put in (HD platinum) isn't near as good as the Castrol Racing RF800 that I was running. The lever/pedal feels dead and there's nowhere near the initial 'grab' I had.

It's bled properly, the new fluid is ordinary. Out it comes tomorrow.

Service was great though, they gave me a demo '18 SGS for the day.
Dash angles are all wrong, unless it's dark the gauges reflect like a mirror. Hate the handlebar. Disgusting rear shocks for a $37,000 bike. Otherwise a nice bike. Thinking...
« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 09:41:48 PM by Maddo Snr »

Offline 04 SE DEUCE

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #160 on: March 26, 2018, 10:14:01 PM »
Wouldn't expect a perceivable difference between same type (4) fluids if bleeding/air entrapment is the same. 

Different boiling points given the same moisture content would mean lever/pedal would start increasing at different temps...obviously not what your referring to..

Offline Maddo Snr

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #161 on: March 27, 2018, 04:19:50 PM »
Wouldn't expect a perceivable difference between same type (4) fluids if bleeding/air entrapment is the same.

Neither would I Rick, the starting point for sussing out what's going on has to be to go back a step though. I'll re-post when I know the result.

Cheers, Pete.