Author Topic: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do  (Read 2450 times)

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Online rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2018, 08:20:39 AM »
Here ya go
What I get out of that is you MUST use the HD brake fluid. What a bunch of BS. Ok for the recall since it's free, but where does one stand later for self service and compliance to the owners manual?  Did I say total complete BS.
Ron

If a specific HD fluid is required, don't they have to provide it for free for the lifetime of the vehicle, per the Moss-Magnusen (sp ?) act?
Where's the profit in that? :wink:
Ron

Online Hossamania

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2018, 08:40:04 AM »
Here ya go
What I get out of that is you MUST use the HD brake fluid. What a bunch of BS. Ok for the recall since it's free, but where does one stand later for self service and compliance to the owners manual?  Did I say total complete BS.
Ron

If a specific HD fluid is required, don't they have to provide it for free for the lifetime of the vehicle, per the Moss-Magnusen (sp ?) act?
Where's the profit in that? :wink:
Ron

Silly me!
My boss always says mean things to me,
like, "You're late."

Offline kd

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2018, 09:07:40 AM »
I won't be taking my '09 bike into HD for the recall. I have a Twin Scan II and have once bled the system this past summer. I don't know how much of a difference there really is in brake fluids, but I elected to use Motul RBF600. It's a synthetic brake fluid, they package it with nitrogen in the bottle rather than air. The reason being less opportunity for moisture absorption while its in storage. Does that really matter? Maybe when you think of where the bottles live and travel, in non climate controlled environments. Hot warehouses or cold, hot or very cold trucks while riding across the country. The temperature changes causes moisture, so maybe you get a little more stable product.   :idunno:

They also claim it to have a higher boiling point in severe usage, not that I'll probably ever test that, but that doesn't hurt at all either.

https://www.motul.com/us/en-US/products/rbf-600-factory-line


The thing about brake fluid is for the most part it is water soluble. Water can be used for clean up. I can see how temperature variations could change the makeup of the fluid by taking the water out of suspension when subjected to the freeze and thaw physics.
KD

Offline Thermodyne

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2018, 09:27:05 AM »
Here ya go
What I get out of that is you MUST use the HD brake fluid. What a bunch of BS. Ok for the recall since it's free, but where does one stand later for self service and compliance to the owners manual?  Did I say total complete BS.
Ron

If a specific HD fluid is required, don't they have to provide it for free for the lifetime of the vehicle, per the Moss-Magnusen (sp ?) act?

As I understand it, that requirment was a seperate regulation that was enacted under the act.  And at best, barely enforcable.  Basically if there is a requirment to replace the fluid under the maintence requirments, and there is a substitue fluid available, even if its for limited use, then the designer fluid is not covered.  Just offering the special fluid for sale on the wholesale aftermarket is enough to avoid the regulation.  The intent was not to regulate the fluid sales, but to let you choose to have your vehicle serviced by non dealer shops.   

Online rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2018, 10:07:01 AM »
I won't be taking my '09 bike into HD for the recall. I have a Twin Scan II and have once bled the system this past summer. I don't know how much of a difference there really is in brake fluids, but I elected to use Motul RBF600. It's a synthetic brake fluid, they package it with nitrogen in the bottle rather than air. The reason being less opportunity for moisture absorption while its in storage. Does that really matter? Maybe when you think of where the bottles live and travel, in non climate controlled environments. Hot warehouses or cold, hot or very cold trucks while riding across the country. The temperature changes causes moisture, so maybe you get a little more stable product.   :idunno:

They also claim it to have a higher boiling point in severe usage, not that I'll probably ever test that, but that doesn't hurt at all either.

https://www.motul.com/us/en-US/products/rbf-600-factory-line


The thing about brake fluid is for the most part it is water soluble. Water can be used for clean up. I can see how temperature variations could change the makeup of the fluid by taking the water out of suspension when subjected to the freeze and thaw physics.
Strangely enough the fluid moisture absorption trait is by design or intend. It keeps moisture in the mix so it can't come out of suspension and freeze somewhere in the system that could cause brake failures. Mind you, this absorption is also what places a fluid change interval on it that most ignore. Boiling point decreases and corrosion of internal components increases with too much moisture content.
Ron

Offline kd

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2018, 10:42:22 AM »
Ron, Are you saying the introduced moisture doesn't bind in the solution in the same way it does when it's first formulated, or the introduced moisture does bind and forms a new compound ( ie. gel). If that is so can how can it cause corrosion. By electrolytic action?
KD

Online rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2018, 11:34:53 AM »
Ron, Are you saying the introduced moisture doesn't bind in the solution in the same way it does when it's first formulated, or the introduced moisture does bind and forms a new compound ( ie. gel). If that is so can how can it cause corrosion. By electrolytic action?

 This expains it better then my previous attempt.
http://www.brakebleeder.com/brake-fluid-white-paper-on-copper/
Ron
« Last Edit: February 10, 2018, 12:54:14 PM by rbabos »

Offline hattitude

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2018, 09:45:40 PM »

If a specific HD fluid is required, don't they have to provide it for free for the lifetime of the vehicle, per the Moss-Magnusen (sp ?) act?

As I understand it, that requirment was a seperate regulation that was enacted under the act.  And at best, barely enforcable.  Basically if there is a requirment to replace the fluid under the maintence requirments, and there is a substitue fluid available, even if its for limited use, then the designer fluid is not covered.  Just offering the special fluid for sale on the wholesale aftermarket is enough to avoid the regulation.  The intent was not to regulate the fluid sales, but to let you choose to have your vehicle serviced by non dealer shops.


Quote from Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act:

"(c) Prohibition on conditions for written or implied warranty; waiver by Commission, No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumer's using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade, or corporate name;"

In a nutshell, if HD required the use of Harley DOT 4 brake fluid be used, in order to maintain the warranty on the ABS Unit, they would have to supply the customer with the Harley DOT 4 brake fluid--- for the term of the warranty (barring a special waiver by the Commission).

Since none of the bikes included in this recall are under factory warranty (2008-2011), the MM Act is moot...

This whole fiasco is a remedy offered up by the MoCo, in response to the ABS complaints, and accepted by the NHTSA as an acceptable response.....
« Last Edit: February 10, 2018, 09:50:27 PM by hattitude »

Offline FSG

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2018, 09:59:51 PM »
Quote
This whole fiasco is a remedy offered up by the MoCo, in response to the ABS complaints, and accepted by the NHTSA as an acceptable response.....

That may well be true, BUT shouldn't there be some onus on the owner of the vehicle in the first place to ensure that schedule service as specified in the Owner’s Manual and Service Manual be performed.


Offline Maddo Snr

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2018, 10:26:16 PM »
That may well be true, BUT shouldn't there be some onus on the owner of the vehicle in the first place to ensure that schedule service as specified in the Owner’s Manual and Service Manual be performed.

And you and I both know Gary that taking it religiously to the dealer simply ensures the service box is ticked, not that the job is done to the spec in the actual book.

Re: the ABS on these models, mine kicks in regularly on washboarded dirt roads if you come in a bit hot into turns. Whilst it never locks up there's SFA braking effect when it cycles. Is this normal? I'm thinking about disabling the front ABS.

Online Hossamania

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2018, 07:48:47 AM »
The ABS kicking in on choppy roads while braking is normal. Not always ideal, but normal.
My boss always says mean things to me,
like, "You're late."

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2018, 07:52:54 AM »
The resolution on the ABS sensors that HD uses really aren't fine enough. This is why they feel so choppy and kick in and out the way they do. By the time they should be de-energizing the ABS, and then re-energizing it, the system either misses the event needed, or stays in ABS mode too long.
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Online Hossamania

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2018, 07:58:26 AM »
Bigger rings on the wheel to get better readings aren't as pretty as the smaller hidden rings.
BMW, big visible rings that work very well.
 Form over function.
My boss always says mean things to me,
like, "You're late."

Online rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #38 on: February 11, 2018, 08:06:02 AM »
Bigger rings on the wheel to get better readings aren't as pretty as the smaller hidden rings.
BMW, big visible rings that work very well.
 Form over function.
Isn't that function over looks with BMW or other better ABS systems? I know what you meant. That Harley ABS bearing is really lame for good results.
Ron

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #39 on: February 11, 2018, 08:08:11 AM »
Bigger rings on the wheel to get better readings aren't as pretty as the smaller hidden rings.
BMW, big visible rings that work very well.
 Form over function.
Isn't that function over looks with BMW or other better ABS systems? I know what you meant. That Harley ABS bearing is really lame for good results.
Ron

I had it in the wrong spot. Harley is form over function.
BMW attempts form and succeeds for the most part, but function trumps form when it comes to safety.
My boss always says mean things to me,
like, "You're late."

Offline dogger

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2018, 09:57:40 AM »
I can't say enough about the ABS on the 1600.

Online PoorUB

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #41 on: February 11, 2018, 10:34:26 AM »
I have never understood why HD did not use the outer edge of the brake disk as a reluctor ring. Mount the sensor on the back side of the caliper.
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #42 on: February 11, 2018, 10:36:17 AM »
Because their rotors warp.....   just sayin....       :hyst:

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Online rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2018, 10:37:03 AM »
I have never understood why HD did not use the outer edge of the brake disk as a reluctor ring. Mount the sensor on the back side of the caliper.
One less place to get a rag stuck when cleaning. We all like to clean you know? :wink:
Ron

Offline 04 SE DEUCE

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #44 on: February 11, 2018, 11:46:22 AM »
Really neat thing about this ABS is that it fails to no brakes leaving you in Fred Flintstone mode....drag'n your feet.  :dgust:

Service maintenance,  fluid change and cycling the module is important if you want/like brakes.

Online rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #45 on: February 11, 2018, 01:46:11 PM »
Really neat thing about this ABS is that it fails to no brakes leaving you in Fred Flintstone mode....drag'n your feet.  :dgust:

Service maintenance,  fluid change and cycling the module is important if you want/like brakes.
I'm really amazed they can get away with that. Failure should only be a nuisance, not a life threatening situation.
Ron

Offline kd

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #46 on: February 11, 2018, 02:09:36 PM »
Ron, I just found this on the government of Canada web site in a quick search.  :dgust:  I haven't looked any deeper than the FAQ. It seems there are standards where any part of a brake system fails the brakes must still work. As we don't have emergency brake cables or devices (or 2 means of braking) HD may be toast if it gets found out at Transport Canada.

Does Transport Canada have a safety standard for ABS?
No, not for ABS alone.

Transport Canada does have a standard for effectiveness of a vehicle's intact brake system, which includes braking performance in case of a failure of part of the system.

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/motorvehiclesafety/tp-tp13082-abs4_e-217.htm#standard

 
KD

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #47 on: February 11, 2018, 02:13:26 PM »
I have never understood why HD did not use the outer edge of the brake disk as a reluctor ring. Mount the sensor on the back side of the caliper.
One less place to get a rag stuck when cleaning. We all like to clean you know? :wink:
Ron

Appearance over function, I get it, after all I have been riding HD's for 15 years.
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Offline yobtaf103

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #48 on: February 11, 2018, 04:18:03 PM »
 softail 11 abs not included, also what's manufactured in Brazil?

Online rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #49 on: February 12, 2018, 05:01:08 AM »
Ron, I just found this on the government of Canada web site in a quick search.  :dgust:  I haven't looked any deeper than the FAQ. It seems there are standards where any part of a brake system fails the brakes must still work. As we don't have emergency brake cables or devices (or 2 means of braking) HD may be toast if it gets found out at Transport Canada.

Does Transport Canada have a safety standard for ABS?
No, not for ABS alone.

Transport Canada does have a standard for effectiveness of a vehicle's intact brake system, which includes braking performance in case of a failure of part of the system.

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/motorvehiclesafety/tp-tp13082-abs4_e-217.htm#standard
Interesting. All it will take is a couple of pissed off owners to call or email. I'm sure they already know about the recall and will use the wait and see approach until then.
Ron