Author Topic: Noise after cam install  (Read 771 times)

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Offline barrygreen

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Noise after cam install
« on: February 09, 2018, 02:35:33 PM »
Just upgraded my 2014 103 to the CR570-2 cams. Getting valve train noise. I have the S&S Premium Lifters, also did the Zippers dual piston chain tensioners along with the Axtell oil bypass valve and SE Adjustable push rods set at 3 turns. So it may just be me but I have engine noise...Valve Train and a cam chest rattle at idle, sometimes.
I have re adjusted the push rods 3 times. It just does not sound right to me. It has been in the 40's to 60's here and the oil pressure is at lowest 17, highest 42. I am a retired tech of 45 years and not afraid to ask but it seems or sounds like a oiling issue. I will be taking it apart and looking but I suspect the oil bypass valve....when I installed it I barely had to push on the spring spacer to install the pin. At this point I am thinking if I have to tear it down again to replace the plate and pump also to a upgraded set.
Bike runs fantastic, Really like the cams but the noise is more than stock . I know you get noise from different cam ramp design and I am setting on top of a engine but it just does not seem right.
Any input is appreciated.

Online les

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Re: Noise after cam install
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2018, 05:08:51 PM »
Did you remember to put the two little brown O-rings in the oil channel holes between the cam plate and the casing?

Online PoorUB

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Re: Noise after cam install
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2018, 06:46:57 PM »
Idle at 17 PSI should be fine. From the pressures you posted I don't see any oil problem.
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Offline Nutoy

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Re: Noise after cam install
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2018, 06:51:19 PM »
Berry the way you describe the valve install and oil pressure sounds right to me.

Offline Nutoy

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Re: Noise after cam install
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2018, 06:57:43 PM »
I did a 107 build last winter and chased a valve train noise for 4 months with out much success. so this winter I worked on it some more an believe I have it fixed, I have only put 30 miles on it because of the weather so really to early to say if noise is fixed.

Offline Teardrop

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Re: Noise after cam install
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2018, 07:01:43 PM »
I did a 107 build last winter and chased a valve train noise for 4 months with out much success. so this winter I worked on it some more an believe I have it fixed, I have only put 30 miles on it because of the weather so really to early to say if noise is fixed.


What did you do to fix the noise?
Mesa Arizona

Offline kd

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Re: Noise after cam install
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2018, 07:22:11 PM »
Feel your pushrods with the engine running. You may have some contact. If so youíll have marks on them from rubbing. You can bore the upper end of the inner pushrod tube to 5/8Ē about 1Ē deep to get clearance. Search the site for discussions about it and the procedure.
KD

Offline Nutoy

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Re: Noise after cam install
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2018, 07:24:23 PM »
I am not sure it is truly fixed yet waiting on warmer weather to know for sure, I can say I know what did not fix the noise and that list is as long as your arm lol. Cams lifters push rods cam plate h.v. oil pump, reaming push rod tubes rocker arms different valve springs billet rocker supports and no change in noise.

Offline koko3052

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Re: Noise after cam install
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2018, 07:36:11 PM »
I'm with KD on the push rod tubes. I did a build with SE adjustables &  chased the noise until I replaced them with Smithbros. tapered.

Offline kd

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Re: Noise after cam install
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2018, 07:54:25 PM »
On that subject, you can loosen off the rocker stands (at TDC compression), pull them over to the cam side of the engine, and torque them down. Thatíll move them away from the closest contact area and you can look down on them to find the sweet spot.
KD

Offline FLDavetrain

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Re: Noise after cam install
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2018, 04:40:14 AM »
On that subject, you can loosen off the rocker stands (at TDC compression), pull them over to the cam side of the engine, and torque them down. Thatíll move them away from the closest contact area and you can look down on them to find the sweet spot.

Often overlooked but a great should be common practice tip.  :up:
currently 482ci in the garage

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Noise after cam install
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2018, 04:45:59 AM »
On that subject, you can loosen off the rocker stands (at TDC compression), pull them over to the cam side of the engine, and torque them down. Thatíll move them away from the closest contact area and you can look down on them to find the sweet spot.

Often overlooked but a great should be common practice tip.  :up:

Not for those using aftermarket bolt sleeves to wedge the shafts, which he may be a candidate for.

Offline FLDavetrain

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Re: Noise after cam install
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2018, 04:52:44 AM »
On that subject, you can loosen off the rocker stands (at TDC compression), pull them over to the cam side of the engine, and torque them down. Thatíll move them away from the closest contact area and you can look down on them to find the sweet spot.

Often overlooked but a great should be common practice tip.  :up:

Not for those using aftermarket bolt sleeves to wedge the shafts, which he may be a candidate for.

I almost went there, yup it may be time for sleeves.
currently 482ci in the garage

Offline barrygreen

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Re: Noise after cam install
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2018, 04:54:31 AM »
Idle at 17 PSI should be fine. From the pressures you posted I don't see any oil problem.

Yes....

Offline Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers

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Re: Noise after cam install
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2018, 05:47:53 AM »
On that subject, you can loosen off the rocker stands (at TDC compression), pull them over to the cam side of the engine, and torque them down. Thatíll move them away from the closest contact area and you can look down on them to find the sweet spot.

Often overlooked but a great should be common practice tip.  :up:

Not for those using aftermarket bolt sleeves to wedge the shafts, which he may be a candidate for.

I almost went there, yup it may be time for sleeves.
We have seen this a lot whenever the rocker arm support plate has been removed. With the gap between the bolt and plate hole every time the plate is installed it is in a different position putting side loads on the push rods/rocker arm. The inserts center the plate where it was designed to ride, also centers the push rods so that there is less of a chance of rubbing. We have also seen more rocker arm shaft rotate and hit the bolt after a hotter cam was installed, you are putting more pressure on the shaft, and causing it to turn, and when it turns it hits the bolt.
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Offline kd

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Re: Noise after cam install
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2018, 06:57:50 AM »
On that subject, you can loosen off the rocker stands (at TDC compression), pull them over to the cam side of the engine, and torque them down. Thatíll move them away from the closest contact area and you can look down on them to find the sweet spot.

Often overlooked but a great should be common practice tip.  :up:

Not for those using aftermarket bolt sleeves to wedge the shafts, which he may be a candidate for.


Before the sleeves (and while they were being tested) some of us drilled and locked the rocker shaft with set screws. For example mine are locked with double set grub screws from underneath. That allows me with my high lift cams to set the rocker stands with the best pushrod clearance in the tubes and the valve tip contact with my rollers centered. When I set mine I rolled the engine over and followed the components through their cycle to be sure it was optimum. I agree that once you use the locker sleeves all variance is out of your hands.
KD

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Noise after cam install
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2018, 07:25:59 AM »
My honest recommendation as a first step, if your not familiar enough with the noise and where it may be originating from, maybe ask someone you may know for a second set of ears to listen to it. Any of the above could be an origination of the noise, but I'd try to isolate it before pulling parts off. Sometimes even visually the evidence isn't very obvious or clear.

As well, since the bike hasn't been ridden yet, it could simply be a lifter or two is taking awhile to pump up completely. I've had some that took a quite a few miles to get the lifter quiet. I'm just suggesting don't disregard that possibility.
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Offline kd

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Re: Noise after cam install
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2018, 07:48:04 AM »
You mentioned in your thread on the other forum that you already have Rockouts in  :up:  As already mentioned... ride it for a while, one lifter may be a slow learner.

You mentioned you are using SE adjustables. The set I had were pretty badly out on concentricity. If yours are the same way a half t urn each may put them in better alignment.




Rockout, are you saying a half turn on the adjustment or by spinning them in their sockets a half turn? The second (spinning them) does not seem to be a valid suggestion. Just trying to prevent confusion here.  :wink:
KD

Offline Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers

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Re: Noise after cam install
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2018, 08:07:25 AM »
On that subject, you can loosen off the rocker stands (at TDC compression), pull them over to the cam side of the engine, and torque them down. Thatíll move them away from the closest contact area and you can look down on them to find the sweet spot.

Often overlooked but a great should be common practice tip.  :up:

Not for those using aftermarket bolt sleeves to wedge the shafts, which he may be a candidate for.


Before the sleeves (and while they were being tested) some of us drilled and locked the rocker shaft with set screws. For example mine are locked with double set grub screws from underneath. That allows me with my high lift cams to set the rocker stands with the best pushrod clearance in the tubes and the valve tip contact with my rollers centered. When I set mine I rolled the engine over and followed the components through their cycle to be sure it was optimum. I agree that once you use the locker sleeves all variance is out of your hands.
Kd the only time we have seen push rods rubbing after the inserts were installed was when the lower plate was our of alignment, There is the same gap on the lower plate as the rocker arm plate. It is important when re installing the lower plate to center the holes on the head, you can do this by feel on the end of the plate aligning it with the head, or with centering the bolts.
I've also seen guys use drill bits inserted in a couple of holes or even using extra inserts to do the same thing.
Drilling the rocker arm and using a set screw and then aligning the plate has worked great for a lot of guys, but we have seen too many broken rocker arm support plates where the screw was to recommend this.

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Offline Rockout Rocker Products

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Re: Noise after cam install
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2018, 08:28:49 AM »
You mentioned in your thread on the other forum that you already have Rockouts in  :up:  As already mentioned... ride it for a while, one lifter may be a slow learner.

You mentioned you are using SE adjustables. The set I had were pretty badly out on concentricity. If yours are the same way a half t urn each may put them in better alignment.




Rockout, are you saying a half turn on the adjustment or by spinning them in their sockets a half turn? The second (spinning them) does not seem to be a valid suggestion. Just trying to prevent confusion here.  :wink:

A half turn on adjustment. I did some experimenting with mine & found that I could find a "sweet spot" where the alignment was best.
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Offline barrygreen

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Re: Noise after cam install
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2018, 12:22:21 PM »
My honest recommendation as a first step, if your not familiar enough with the noise and where it may be originating from, maybe ask someone you may know for a second set of ears to listen to it. Any of the above could be an origination of the noise, but I'd try to isolate it before pulling parts off. Sometimes even visually the evidence isn't very obvious or clear.

As well, since the bike hasn't been ridden yet, it could simply be a lifter or two is taking awhile to pump up completely. I've had some that took a quite a few miles to get the lifter quiet. I'm just suggesting don't disregard that possibility.

I have put over 300 miles on the bike sense the cam install.

Offline barrygreen

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Re: Noise after cam install
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2018, 12:26:03 PM »
Well it is apart, cannot see anything wrong with what I did, and yes I did tighten the outer tensioner.
I also do not see any marks in the push rods.
So I am taking the Axtell valve out and replacing it with Baisleys spring and plunger.
And going to add another half turn to the adjustment.


Offline barrygreen

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Re: Noise after cam install
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2018, 12:35:10 PM »
Oh and as far as the Rockout bushings, I had cut the old push rods so I removed the covers and installed them one at a time. No pressure on the rocker assembly's that way.
Just removed the bolt, lined up the shaft, started the bushing then pressed them in with all-thread a washer and nut. Blew out the hole and installed the rocker shaft bolt. very easy.
So complete rocker assembly never came of, just one bolt at a time with no pressure on the rocker arms.

Offline kd

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Re: Noise after cam install
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2018, 01:20:49 PM »
FYI  Some folks here have claimed it took the full .140 deep adjustment on the pushrods to get their lifters to quiet down. That's a viable option to consider, then you know how deep you are. With cylinder growth of approx .040 - .050 when hot you will be back to close to center travel of .100 deep. The bonus with the deeper adjustment is better cranking with a heat soaked engine at gas stops etc..
KD

Offline PIRSCH FIRE WAGON

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Re: Noise after cam install
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2018, 04:24:48 PM »
FWIW: I chased a noise for three weeks for a friend after he did Cams for the same reason.

I replaced every part with what I had in stock to include Rockers, Chains, Push Rods, Lifters, Cam Plate, checked for Clearance, Springs, Oil, Filter, still the same noise.

Put his entire build back Stock with his original Parts. Same Noise.

Put all his parts from the up-grade back in and told him to ride it. 30,000 Mi and no problems.

Who Knows. Sometimes, it just "one of those things.".
Tom

Online Hossamania

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Re: Noise after cam install
« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2018, 04:37:01 PM »
Delete
My boss always says mean things to me,
like, "You're late."

Offline barrygreen

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Re: Noise after cam install
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2018, 06:33:12 AM »
I will say this, the oil Axtell bypass valve has little to no pressure on the spring, I can just touch it and it will push down. This kit comes with 2 caps that allows it to work in all OEM plates..and it said to use the thicker cap for stock, i did. That is the only thing I can find. The stock one takes a bit of pressure, a lot more than the Axtell to push in far enough to install the pin.
I will get it back together and report back.
You all have been very helpful!

Offline DTTJGlide

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Re: Noise after cam install
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2018, 09:48:57 AM »
I hope you have found the problem, but with the oil pressure you reported I'm not convinced it was the fault of the Axtell pressure relief valve.

Offline barrygreen

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Re: Noise after cam install
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2018, 11:52:44 AM »
Happy to report that it is fixed, took out the Axtell oil valve and put the stock plunger in with a Baisely spring.
Lifters are set @.150
Oil pressure is higher and the engine is quiet.

Thanks again!

Offline kd

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Re: Noise after cam install
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2018, 11:59:31 AM »
Very interesting. Glad to hear it. Do you think the Axtel valve inner center port needle valve was / could have been hung up and bypassing at too low of a pressure signal? Others report good success using that device so there must have been some quirky thing happening.
KD

Offline barrygreen

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Re: Noise after cam install
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2018, 12:54:50 PM »
Very interesting. Glad to hear it. Do you think the Axtel valve inner center port needle valve was / could have been hung up and bypassing at too low of a pressure signal? Others report good success using that device so there must have been some quirky thing happening.

It was clean when I took it out an functional. But like I said it had no pressure on the spring, you could drop the valve into the hole with the spring and recommended cap and just push the pin with minimal pressure on the cap. Nothing like the stock spring or the Baiselys.

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Noise after cam install
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2018, 03:43:54 PM »
Happy to report that it is fixed, took out the Axtell oil valve and put the stock plunger in with a Baisely spring.
Lifters are set @.150
Oil pressure is higher and the engine is quiet.

Thanks again!

Great that you have it fixed.
What is the low and high oil pressure now?

Offline barrygreen

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Re: Noise after cam install
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2018, 05:19:18 PM »
Happy to report that it is fixed, took out the Axtell oil valve and put the stock plunger in with a Baisely spring.
Lifters are set @.150
Oil pressure is higher and the engine is quiet.

Thanks again!

Great that you have it fixed.
What is the low and high oil pressure now?

I only have running in the garage right now, it was sleeting this AM. But I can say Idling (925rpm) with a head temp of 215* it was at 29, Head temp @ 225* @ 2500 no load was 52.
I was monitoring the head temp on my T_Max software. Air temp in the garage according to the Infotainment screen was 55*along with the oil pressures.

Offline DTTJGlide

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Re: Noise after cam install
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2018, 06:30:34 PM »
Glad that fixed it, I've seen a couple that were quirky, but they would read low on pressure, have used one myself & have never figured out why they will read lower than normal cold & then higher after warmed up :idunno:

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: Noise after cam install
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2018, 06:36:16 PM »
It's possible there's an irregularity in the bore of the cam plate. From what I've heard the Axtell kit, it's susceptible to minor shape issues or abnormalities in the bore. The OEM plunger maybe not as much.
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Offline barrygreen

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Re: Noise after cam install
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2018, 05:33:20 AM »
It's possible there's an irregularity in the bore of the cam plate. From what I've heard the Axtell kit, it's susceptible to minor shape issues or abnormalities in the bore. The OEM plunger maybe not as much.

I could see that, I was almost like the bore was too deep, like I said installing it there was no pressure on the spring.