Author Topic: longer travel cable clutch levers  (Read 471 times)

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Offline kd

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longer travel cable clutch levers
« on: February 10, 2018, 11:21:32 AM »
I have been thinking about the value of using a longer travel clutch lever with my Muller clutch arm to make up for the reduced cable travel and plate separation. It works fine now but a little more travel would sure make finding that fine adjustment easier. A quick look on line finds several levers for small hands that actually reduce travel but none seem to show up that provide a longer stroke and travel. Looking at the stock lever, I can see how making the first bend off the pivot tighter would lift the lever farther off the grip at full travel. I don't want to try to bend one for fear of weakening it and having a fracture failure on the road. Has anyone ever researched these and do you have a link that I could follow up on? Has anyone bent one with success?
KD

Offline road-dawgs1

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Re: longer travel cable clutch levers
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2018, 11:24:48 AM »
Aren’t the levers pretty much pot metal and attempting to bend would merely snap them?
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Offline rigidthumper

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Re: longer travel cable clutch levers
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2018, 11:47:07 AM »
Smaller diameter grips might get you a few more thousandths of cable movement. Custom perch, that moved the pivot point further away would give you more.

Offline kd

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Re: longer travel cable clutch levers
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2018, 11:58:23 AM »
Aren’t the levers pretty much pot metal and attempting to bend would merely snap them?

Yeah, cast aluminum I believe and that's my concern about even slightly bending with heat.

 
Smaller diameter grips might get you a few more thousandths of cable movement. Custom perch, that moved the pivot point further away would give you more.


I don't really nave fat grips and going smaller (if it's possible) with my normal sized hands would probably cause cramping and fatigue. That's the reason I was hoping someone made grips for this purpose. I find it hard to believe that these companies making the short reach ones haven't offered a slightly  long reach / longer stroke option. Even the ones with adjustable beyond the hinge levers only adjust for small hands which causes a shorter stroke. They provide a caution for that consequence.
KD

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: longer travel cable clutch levers
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2018, 12:10:55 PM »
Get a spare lever assy from eBay, and work on removing material from the stop areas, where the lever fits against the bracket. That would give some more cable travel. Heck 0.010" more push rod travel is huge to the clutch. You'd have to experiment with how much to remove from the lever and bracket.

Or, cut and weld the lever. Or do both.


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Offline kd

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Re: longer travel cable clutch levers
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2018, 12:20:28 PM »
That is starting to look like the only option. We're still talking about welding crap aluminum casting. If it has any impurities it can be tough but I suppose doable. I'd hate to have one fail in traffic or sitting at a Red light.
KD

Offline Leed

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Re: longer travel cable clutch levers
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2018, 01:06:22 PM »
If you know a good machinist he could fab up a lever for you.
A friend of mine machined a new lever for a  co-worker who had lost parts of his fingers in an accident.   He was able to ride his Harley more comfortably with the new lever.

Offline Hossamania

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Re: longer travel cable clutch levers
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2018, 01:49:21 PM »
When I dropped one of my old bikes, it bent the lever out a bit without breaking it. So I know it can be done...  Dirt bikes can be seen all the time with bent handles, some curled halfway around.
Maybe some heat with some gentle coaxing.
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Offline koko3052

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Re: longer travel cable clutch levers
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2018, 02:32:15 PM »
KD, mill some out of some flat bar.

Offline FSG

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Re: longer travel cable clutch levers
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2018, 02:37:17 PM »
some flashy levers touchdown on the grips in the purple area

a buffer pad usually takes a bit off to improve things


Offline speedzter

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Offline Ohio HD

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Re: longer travel cable clutch levers
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2018, 03:43:29 PM »
Kirk, just one thing I wonder about, at what point does the Muller top out? The way it's designed if it tops out from excess cable travel, the ball bearings will try to ride out of the inner ramp. The HD design would just bring the clutch push rod backwards as it won't top out. It goes past the top and comes down again.

Added: Actually, let me rethink that, the HD unit won't go backwards, it just has a wider slot for the bearing, and it actually would keep going till it runs out of travel.
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Offline PIRSCH FIRE WAGON

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Re: longer travel cable clutch levers
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2018, 04:28:02 PM »
This is what I use:
http://www.oberon-performance.co.uk/acatalog/Harley_Davidson_Cable_Clutch_Models_Adjustable_Levers-1.html




I have installed these for several customers on Both Spring and Hydraulic. All Motor Police Officers. Makes a world of difference.
Tom

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: longer travel cable clutch levers
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2018, 04:33:50 PM »
How much further away from the grip can these be adjusted in relation to a stock lever?
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Offline kd

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Re: longer travel cable clutch levers
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2018, 04:39:36 PM »
They’re pricey but if they work they could be just the edge needed to ensure a clean release. I’d love to have another .020 at the pressure plate.
KD

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: longer travel cable clutch levers
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2018, 04:44:21 PM »
How much do you have now?
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Offline kd

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Re: longer travel cable clutch levers
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2018, 05:00:30 PM »
How much further away from the grip can these be adjusted in relation to a stock lever?


The description says it is 7” long pivot to end of ball and I confirmed it matches stock.
The “total” adjustment “available is 30mm or 1 1/8”.
The center of the adjustment is said to be “close” to stock so that to me means about 9/16 “ extra clutch cable movement available. (Or 9/16 further from the grip)
What that relates to at the pressure plate is beyond my quick calc ability.  :nix:   :scratch:


How much do you have now?


If you mean me and what lever travel, it’s tough to measure on the length of the lever because it is different at any given point on the length.  If you mean plate movement, I have .050 / .052 adjusted. It works well with a the bandit in an EVO 49 tooth basket. I just feel a little more travel would make initial cold operation maybe nicer even though it’s not bad.
KD

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: longer travel cable clutch levers
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2018, 05:07:26 PM »
How much do you have now?


If you mean me and what lever travel, it’s tough to measure on the length of the lever because it is different at any given point on the length.  If you mean plate movement, I have .050 / .052 adjusted. It works well with a the bandit in an EVO 49 tooth basket. I just feel a little more travel would make initial cold operation maybe nicer even though it’s not bad.

I agree, more would be helpful. At 0.055" ish, neutral was at times tricky, especially due to the heavy lever pressure required now. I have about 0.024" more going to the 21° ramps and a new cable. After I have the Mullers in, I may end up taking them back out if 0.055" is all I can get.
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Offline Ohio HD

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Re: longer travel cable clutch levers
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2018, 05:09:19 PM »
How much further away from the grip can these be adjusted in relation to a stock lever?


The description says it is 7” long pivot to end of ball and I confirmed it matches stock.
The “total” adjustment “available is 30mm or 1 1/8”.
The center of the adjustment is said to be “close” to stock so that to me means about 9/16 “ extra clutch cable movement available. (Or 9/16 further from the grip)
What that relates to at the pressure plate is beyond my quick calc ability.  :nix:   :scratch:

I was hoping that one of the guys that put them on had a measure from the grip, in relation to what an OEM lever measure on the same bike.
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Offline kd

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Re: longer travel cable clutch levers
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2018, 05:16:32 PM »
That’s a tough measurement to get. It’s very subjective and depends on how far down the clutch handle you take that measurement. I suppose you could agree on a point like at the ball tip contact to the grip or 3 1/2 “ from the ball tip or pivot (which is half way).
KD

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: longer travel cable clutch levers
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2018, 05:20:59 PM »
Well, then the measure can be how far away from the bracket does the lever travel now.

Things like measuring the lever distance from the grip, I would use a gauge I'll make that sets the distance from say the end of the handlebar, then use a feeler gauge to get the same spot away from the shim to the lever. It can be done. 
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Offline kd

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Re: longer travel cable clutch levers
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2018, 06:25:19 PM »
I have my primary off right now and a dial indicator set up for measurement. I can’t get on it tonight but I’ll try to do it as early as I can tomorrow. I’ll l measure how much plate travel corresponds with 9/16 lever movement at the ball. That will be worse case scenario. I’ll try to email them and find out where they measure the 1 1/8” they state in their notes. Either way, if 9/16 at the ball end gives significant movement at the pressure plate (to give stock or suitable plate separation of .070 or more) then where they measure from is irrelevant.
KD

Offline speedzter

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Re: longer travel cable clutch levers
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2018, 08:52:42 PM »
I've taken a few pic's, and I'll link them soon.
I have a a Barnett extra plate clutch with a BDL ball bearing locker.
I managed to get a bit over .063 travel with the late 18 degree ramps

https://photos.app.goo.gl/p846c686k9tCrEjo1
« Last Edit: February 10, 2018, 09:01:59 PM by speedzter »

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: longer travel cable clutch levers
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2018, 08:59:03 PM »
Thanks, like to see them.
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Offline FSG

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Re: longer travel cable clutch levers
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2018, 09:49:43 PM »
these are speedzter pix









« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 01:07:40 AM by FSG »

Offline kd

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Re: longer travel cable clutch levers
« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2018, 10:24:42 PM »
FSG, what position from the center adjustment notch is that lever adjusted to to give those measurements?  The 7" length I get is the OEM lever. You show +6.75 for your lengths.

I get OEM 4.5" to the outside of the ball tip lever at rest with a pawl return spring installed  (you're at 5" and 4.75" (or 4.8") in the pics).
KD

Offline speedzter

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Re: longer travel cable clutch levers
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2018, 01:13:19 AM »
In the pics, the lever is adjusted to its maximum reach.

Offline kd

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Re: longer travel cable clutch levers
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2018, 06:47:18 AM »
If your pics are at full extension then I can't really see how there can be more travel. If there is a different first bend coming off the pivot point it may be that is how it (their claim) is accomplished. The adjustment feature may add slightly more to that  :nix: but if not it then only becomes another lever meant for people with smaller hands. They do claim the center adjustment notch is "close to stock" whatever that means. If it means it errs on the side of the extended measurement adjustment, then IMO the stroke gained will be less.

Speedster, do you have an OEM lever you can lay over top of the one you have in the pics with the adjustment set for full reach? It would be interesting to see the difference in the ball position from the grip (if any) and if there are any profile (bend) changes to help get the extension longer.

Added later:

It may be that the cable fitting in the handle is located in a farther arc from the pivot pin and that is adding some travel (or could). That would also increase the power required to operate the lever.
.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 09:00:27 AM by kd »
KD

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: longer travel cable clutch levers
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2018, 09:32:09 AM »
In the end, unless it's very obvious as to how much more cable the levers do pull out, measuring at the clutch adjustment screw is about the only way to verify this helps with plate separation. It would be great if they do, I'd pay for them if they can give more travel. 
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Offline kd

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Re: longer travel cable clutch levers
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2018, 12:51:06 PM »
Brian, I measured the value for the last 9/16" travel of the lever on pressure plate movement. I used the closest surface of the ball to the grip as a point of reference because I think if someone was advertising travel benefit  they would use the longest measurement for maximum effect. I got a repeatable .0085 extra plate separation lift on the plate next to the screw. I used the machined surface of the plate because the socket head screw did not seem to be smooth enough to give a consistent repeatable result.

Now all of this info is only good if the extra travel on the lever is 9/16" as the advertising seems to read (to me). Their website says that you gain access their PDF assembly drawings and fitting instructions but they are not there when I click on them. I thought there may be some more helpful info there. 

I have decided to call them (rather than email) to ask the question of how much actual extra travel of the lever can be expected. I'll also try to find out if they have determined the amount of separation per inch or MM of lever travel with the Harley option, where they measure from, is the fulcrum ration the same as OEM (cable connection position) or anything else that come to mind from the discussion (or you or anyone else may suggest is useful)

This is a $140.00 Can (plus shipping) item for me so I won't even consider buying it unless I get a realistic estimate of travel first. There are a few US distributors listed on their GB site that may be worth checking. I would probably do it for the extra .0085 plate separation and .010 would be a shoe in. What I have works well now but I would like a little free board to accommodate wear and run out etc.

I'll update with anything I find out. I hope the phone call works cuz I hate this one finger typing crap.
KD

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: longer travel cable clutch levers
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2018, 12:59:14 PM »
To me I would hope they knew what increase of cable travel they can give over a stock setup, but I bet they don't know. If I were marketing those, I'd be looking at every aspect I could to find a reason someone might want / need them. You might ask them about increase / decrease in cable travel. Maybe they know. I'd certainly spring for them if they increase cable travel. $110 American is about what they are here.
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Offline kd

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Re: longer travel cable clutch levers
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2018, 01:06:22 PM »
Yeah, I had that question on my list. They are 6 hours ahead over there. We'll see how the call goes. The lever at my guess of 9/16" extra travel moves me from +.050 / .052ish to about .060. I think that's worth it for me too.
KD

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: longer travel cable clutch levers
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2018, 01:12:17 PM »
Then again I might massage the back side of a stock lever like FSG mentioned. First thing I would do is pull the grip off, and see what that gets me at the clutch, then I have an idea as to how much to remove and test.
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Offline kd

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Re: longer travel cable clutch levers
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2018, 01:26:19 PM »
 :up:  While you're thinking about that you can use the info I just gave you on travel / lift ratio. I used the last 9/16" of travel closest to the grip for my measurement to ensure the cable was well seated into the outer. I should also mention my cable has 65,000 miles on it so it will probably have lost a little travel to wear. I guess my point is, you will have to come up with a mod that gives a lot of travel. My measurements gave ratio of  .5625 (9/16") lever movement for .0085 pushrod travel. 
KD

Offline kd

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Re: longer travel cable clutch levers
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2018, 03:17:12 PM »
 Disregard.  the pic I posted was a comparison between the OEM and Oberon "Hyd" levers so it was irrelevant.

added later:

This is showing the range of adjustment without OEM comparison but you can get an idea.


http://streetfightersinc.com/images/OberonLeversHarley.gif
« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 03:30:04 PM by kd »
KD