Author Topic: Starting Sytem Problems 2010 V-Rod Muscle 50k  (Read 1468 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline DrumRunner

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 84
  • Country: us
Starting Sytem Problems 2010 V-Rod Muscle 50k
« on: October 13, 2015, 11:26:17 AM »
I have a new customer that has 2010 muscle that has been dragging on start up for a while. Then It would not turn over at all. He put in a new battery and still no start. He brought the bike to me and he didn't have spacers on the battery and wasn't getting good contact with the terminals. So naturally I thought problem solved. Bike started one time since then. I checked amperage draw and it was pulling 400+ amps. I bypassed the solenoid and same outcome. I pulled starter and bench tested it @40 amps. Pulled the starter apart and found  one questionable spot in the armature. Customer decided to try a new starter. It did not make a differnce.
It will not turn over with the plugs removed either.

I have pulled the left side cover and do not see anything wrong. The manual has no trouble shooting or even a good description on how this sytem works. The motor does not seem to hard to turn over but I have nothing to compare it to. I hate hanging parts without a reason but I don't know where else to go. Sorry for the long post and any help would be greatly appreciated.

Offline rbabos

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 13082
  • Country: ca
Re: Starting Sytem Problems 2010 V-Rod Muscle 50k
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2015, 12:21:50 PM »
I have a new customer that has 2010 muscle that has been dragging on start up for a while. Then It would not turn over at all. He put in a new battery and still no start. He brought the bike to me and he didn't have spacers on the battery and wasn't getting good contact with the terminals. So naturally I thought problem solved. Bike started one time since then. I checked amperage draw and it was pulling 400+ amps. I bypassed the solenoid and same outcome. I pulled starter and bench tested it @40 amps. Pulled the starter apart and found  one questionable spot in the armature. Customer decided to try a new starter. It did not make a differnce.
It will not turn over with the plugs removed either.

I have pulled the left side cover and do not see anything wrong. The manual has no trouble shooting or even a good description on how this sytem works. The motor does not seem to hard to turn over but I have nothing to compare it to. I hate hanging parts without a reason but I don't know where else to go. Sorry for the long post and any help would be greatly appreciated.
PM sent.
Ron

Offline Panzer

  • Shed Master
  • Full Member
  • Posts: 11195
  • Country: us
  • Live one day at a time.
Re: Starting Sytem Problems 2010 V-Rod Muscle 50k
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2015, 05:52:21 PM »
Don't keep it a secret, inquiring minds would like to know.
You don't have to shovel sunshine ..... let's ride.

Offline DrumRunner

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 84
  • Country: us
Re: Starting Sytem Problems 2010 V-Rod Muscle 50k
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2015, 05:56:52 PM »
 Rbabos  e-mailed me a pdf of a 2013 electrical diagnostic manual which was very nice of him, but I have a 2012 manual and electrical diagnostic manual, and neither one of them go into any detail of what I am looking for. They really don't describe how the starter drive works and how to trouble shoot a mechanical drag in the sytem. So still needing help.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 06:30:42 PM by DrumRunner »

Offline Panzer

  • Shed Master
  • Full Member
  • Posts: 11195
  • Country: us
  • Live one day at a time.
Re: Starting Sytem Problems 2010 V-Rod Muscle 50k
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2015, 05:17:34 AM »
Thanks for sharing the secret.  :up:
Keep checking in on your post, someone will come along with help I'm sure..............hang in.
You don't have to shovel sunshine ..... let's ride.

Offline rbabos

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 13082
  • Country: ca
Re: Starting Sytem Problems 2010 V-Rod Muscle 50k
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2015, 06:19:27 AM »
Only one way to find out is dive into the left cover. I sent the components list as well. As for what the actual problem is, well that's a weird one. Pretty simple reliable system. I'm really interested on what was the cause of this since I've not found another case like this.
Ron

Offline jbee

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 97
  • Country: gb
Re: Starting Sytem Problems 2010 V-Rod Muscle 50k
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2015, 02:44:38 PM »
Is that a Harley standard battery?
400 amps is a heck of a lot of power. It should spin that motor over no problem. I think a stock battery is 270-280 cold cranking amps. Does it sound really sluggish trying to turn over or just doesn't want to even try, or is there like a whining sound? 
When the plugs are out does it even try to turn over or just lock up? Not turning over with the plugs out kinda rules out an issue with the mechanical decompressors on the cams ( if they still have them on that year)
Just for the hell of it have you tried with another known good battery even if it's not the correct one & just temporarily connected to double confirm it's not a battery issue?
Try temporarily substituting the main positive lead to the starter in case there is some freak internal corrosion or damage internally in the lead. Not seen it before but who knows?
Also, maybe try a jumper wire directly to the starter from battery positive to rule out the rest of the starter circuit and not just the solenoid.
Have you checked the earths are clean and tight? Don't forget the earth lead towards the back / below the engine where it connects to the frame. Also where the negative lead run to that L shaped bracket on the front cam cover...that bracket is good and tight?
Never seen a problem with the starter gear/ sprag clutch in the left hand side casing as yet on V-rods but have on Buell1125's and caused similar starting issues but normally accompanied by crunching nasty sounds.

good luck.

Offline DrumRunner

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 84
  • Country: us
Re: Starting Sytem Problems 2010 V-Rod Muscle 50k
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2015, 03:35:07 PM »
Is that a Harley standard battery?
400 amps is a heck of a lot of power. It should spin that motor over no problem. I think a stock battery is 270-280 cold cranking amps. Does it sound really sluggish trying to turn over or just doesn't want to even try, or is there like a whining sound? 
When the plugs are out does it even try to turn over or just lock up? Not turning over with the plugs out kinda rules out an issue with the mechanical decompressors on the cams ( if they still have them on that year)
Just for the hell of it have you tried with another known good battery even if it's not the correct one & just temporarily connected to double confirm it's not a battery issue?
Try temporarily substituting the main positive lead to the starter in case there is some freak internal corrosion or damage internally in the lead. Not seen it before but who knows?
Also, maybe try a jumper wire directly to the starter from battery positive to rule out the rest of the starter circuit and not just the solenoid.
Have you checked the earths are clean and tight? Don't forget the earth lead towards the back / below the engine where it connects to the frame. Also where the negative lead run to that L shaped bracket on the front cam cover...that bracket is good and tight?
Never seen a problem with the starter gear/ sprag clutch in the left hand side casing as yet on V-rods but have on Buell1125's and caused similar starting issues but normally accompanied by crunching nasty sounds.

good luck.

No its a drag battery. The starter was drawing 400 amps on the positive wire.
At times it will turn real sluggish then stop or it won t turn at all. It makes no difference if the plugs are out or in. The 1250s do not have decomperessors to my knowledge and for sure this year does not have them.
Thanks for the suggestions but I have eliminated all of those. Now I'm on to mechanical drive in the engine. Hopefully it's the limiter. How are you guys removing the rotor with out harleys tool. A 3 jaw or getting a longer bolt and tightening it?

Offline rbabos

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 13082
  • Country: ca
Re: Starting Sytem Problems 2010 V-Rod Muscle 50k
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2015, 08:16:01 AM »
Is that a Harley standard battery?
400 amps is a heck of a lot of power. It should spin that motor over no problem. I think a stock battery is 270-280 cold cranking amps. Does it sound really sluggish trying to turn over or just doesn't want to even try, or is there like a whining sound? 
When the plugs are out does it even try to turn over or just lock up? Not turning over with the plugs out kinda rules out an issue with the mechanical decompressors on the cams ( if they still have them on that year)
Just for the hell of it have you tried with another known good battery even if it's not the correct one & just temporarily connected to double confirm it's not a battery issue?
Try temporarily substituting the main positive lead to the starter in case there is some freak internal corrosion or damage internally in the lead. Not seen it before but who knows?
Also, maybe try a jumper wire directly to the starter from battery positive to rule out the rest of the starter circuit and not just the solenoid.
Have you checked the earths are clean and tight? Don't forget the earth lead towards the back / below the engine where it connects to the frame. Also where the negative lead run to that L shaped bracket on the front cam cover...that bracket is good and tight?
Never seen a problem with the starter gear/ sprag clutch in the left hand side casing as yet on V-rods but have on Buell1125's and caused similar starting issues but normally accompanied by crunching nasty sounds.

good luck.

No its a drag battery. The starter was drawing 400 amps on the positive wire.
At times it will turn real sluggish then stop or it won t turn at all. It makes no difference if the plugs are out or in. The 1250s do not have decomperessors to my knowledge and for sure this year does not have them.
Thanks for the suggestions but I have eliminated all of those. Now I'm on to mechanical drive in the engine. Hopefully it's the limiter. How are you guys removing the rotor with out harleys tool. A 3 jaw or getting a longer bolt and tightening it?
No decompressors on that since 08, I think. HD put a bigger battery in and dropped them.
The actual tool is a M22X1.5 bolt about 90+mm long. I just made one at the shop I worked at prior to retiring. Impact will remove it instantly. Any local small machine shop can whip one up for you. Other option, possibly buy one off a shelf at a bolt supply or a short piece of threaded rod with nut welded on the end. Turn it into the center hole of rotor after bolt is removed. Instant puller.
Ron
« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 09:47:03 AM by rbabos »

Offline DrumRunner

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 84
  • Country: us
Re: Starting Sytem Problems 2010 V-Rod Muscle 50k
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2015, 12:49:00 PM »
Problem found and solved! It was the starter limiter assembly. It has a shaft bolted to the engine and the limiter spins on that shaft with no bearing. The shaft and limiter had major scaring/galling causing it to lock up or severely drag. Thanks for everyone's help. I'll try to Remer to post some more pictures next week.

Offline rbabos

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 13082
  • Country: ca
Re: Starting Sytem Problems 2010 V-Rod Muscle 50k
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2015, 01:15:10 PM »
Glad you found it. I know I said not to take it apart but I'm sure you are as curious as me on how they did the clutch pack in that limiter. :smilep:
Ron

Offline DrumRunner

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 84
  • Country: us
Re: Starting Sytem Problems 2010 V-Rod Muscle 50k
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2015, 01:22:14 PM »
There are 2 snap rings I have only taken the one holding the shaft to the limiter. I will pull the other one apart next week.

Offline DrumRunner

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 84
  • Country: us
Re: Starting Sytem Problems 2010 V-Rod Muscle 50k
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2015, 08:51:54 PM »
« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 08:16:30 AM by DrumRunner »

Offline rbabos

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 13082
  • Country: ca
Re: Starting Sytem Problems 2010 V-Rod Muscle 50k
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2015, 07:42:25 AM »
[img]http://harleytechtalk.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=2286/img]

Linky no worky.
Ron

Offline DrumRunner

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 84
  • Country: us
Re: Starting Sytem Problems 2010 V-Rod Muscle 50k
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2015, 08:16:56 AM »
Fixed it

Offline DrumRunner

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 84
  • Country: us
Re: Starting Sytem Problems 2010 V-Rod Muscle 50k
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2015, 04:34:27 PM »
I took the limiter assembly apart today and snapped a picture. Pretty straight forward and would be nice if the manual gave us a little information on this part. Long story short if your bike has been dragging while starting with a known good battery or wont turn over at all, this limiter assembly could be the culprit.

Offline rbabos

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 13082
  • Country: ca
Re: Starting Sytem Problems 2010 V-Rod Muscle 50k
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2015, 08:23:08 AM »
Cool. Looks simple enough.
Ron