Author Topic: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only  (Read 4268 times)

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Offline HD Street Performance

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103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« on: November 26, 2015, 08:49:23 AM »
Local shop agreed to do an experiment, another that illustrates the value of porting. The bike was a stage 1 with thunderheader. Baseline was 68/90. Compression verified at 9.65:1.
Heads swapped to our Street Pro package with slightly larger 87cc chamber and .030 hg now 9.84:1. After only a few miles to warm up the bike it made 89/104. No other changes. This bike had thunder max auto tune and had by no way a finished tune. Not bad for an otherwise stock motor. Proves even with the mildest of cam  (stock) head porting has added value beyond the premium parts and superior valve job.

Offline JohnCA58

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2015, 10:48:30 AM »
Nice Don,    :up:
YOLO

Offline bensfatboy

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2015, 05:54:08 PM »
I have wanted to have my heads done, but my Indy keeps telling me that the only way to increase HP and TQ is more compression......and $$.

Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2015, 06:20:32 PM »
In this case 21 hp 14 tq with just head work. Add better cams and more compression and it goes up higher. These are $499 heads with all new parts.

Offline bensfatboy

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2015, 06:50:04 PM »
In this case 21 hp 14 tq with just head work. Add better cams and more compression and it goes up higher. These are $499 heads with all new parts.

I don't know whether or not your post was to my reply on the subject, but if so, are you trying to tell me that I could gain 21 hp and 14 tq with just head work for $499?

103 ci
se 254 cams
se hi flo ac
d&d fatcat 2 into 1

Really interested to know.

Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2015, 06:54:33 PM »
You have a good start. In this case a stage 1 motorcycle gained that. Would yours? No reputable porter would guarantee that. Combinations like yours do typically break 100 hp and 110 torque with heads and added compression.

Offline bensfatboy

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2015, 07:13:18 PM »
You have a good start. In this case a stage 1 motorcycle gained that. Would yours? No reputable porter would guarantee that. Combinations like yours do typically break 100 hp and 110 torque with heads and added compression.

Now you mention added compression to achieve the gains. I may be not be comprehending your original post. I am under the impression that the gains you stated were made by solely doing the head work with nothing else involved.  Please correct me if I misunderstood your post.

Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2015, 07:26:49 PM »
The compression added was minimal 9.65 vs 9.84:1.
This was planned to avoid issues due to the stock early closing cam. Your cam closes later and to properly match the cam to the rest of the combination the compression should be raised a bit more. Again just enough to compensate for a later closing intake. This is easily accomplished by a minor head cut. Compression added appropriately adds power and torque from the bottom to the top.

Offline bensfatboy

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2015, 07:44:41 PM »
The compression added was minimal 9.65 vs 9.84:1.
This was planned to avoid issues due to the stock early closing cam. Your cam closes later and to properly match the cam to the rest of the combination the compression should be raised a bit more. Again just enough to compensate for a later closing intake. This is easily accomplished by a minor head cut. Compression added appropriately adds power and torque from the bottom to the top.

OK Don, thanks for the clarification. I was kinda hoping I could get some substantially better numbers with just the porting. (Looking for a miracle).
Like I said above in a earlier post, my Indy said the way to gain hp and tq is compression and $$.  He's a real sharp guy when it comes to motorcycles and performance, so I guess he is right again.

Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2015, 08:24:32 AM »
The way to make street able horsepower and torque is with the appropriate compression for the parts combination. Those same heads will make up to 115/115 with a flat torque curve with just added compression and a longer cam. At that point the throttle body and injectors, not airflow, are the constraint.

Offline strokerjlk

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2015, 08:43:35 AM »
Local shop agreed to do an experiment, another that illustrates the value of porting. The bike was a stage 1 with thunderheader. Baseline was 68/90. Compression verified at 9.65:1.
Heads swapped to our Street Pro package with slightly larger 87cc chamber and .030 hg now 9.84:1. After only a few miles to warm up the bike it made 89/104. No other changes. This bike had thunder max auto tune and had by no way a finished tune. Not bad for an otherwise stock motor. Proves even with the mildest of cam  (stock) head porting has added value beyond the premium parts and superior valve job.
nice test Don.
i was / still might do the same with a 96 ci.
one thing to mention. the base numbers are from a untuned stock (stage 1 thunder header 68/90) 103ci. or i would hope so. if you tuned the bike as a stage1 should do 79-82 hp 98-105 tq.
 i have seen a bone stock 2012 FLHX make 77/98 when tuned  , so that needs to be brought into the equation.
so you are looking at 8-10 hp gain and the tq is a wash.
A scientific theory summarizes a hypothesis
repeated testing establishes theory

Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2015, 08:51:55 AM »
Jim that is your world, welcome to mine.  :emoGroan:
Both were tested on the same 250i with winpep 7 and in both cases with a tmax ecu auto tune. :down: the version with headwork was not allowed to correct just brought right to the dyno.

Offline strokerjlk

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2015, 12:19:49 PM »
Jim that is your world, welcome to mine.  :emoGroan:
Both were tested on the same 250i with winpep 7 and in both cases with a tmax ecu auto tune. :down: the version with headwork was not allowed to correct just brought right to the dyno.
Humm . The test was inconclusive then .
It's pretty simple tune the base bike for max power . Then tune the worked heads to max power.
My 96 made  70 hp bone stock with a tune.  74 or 76 hp  :scratch:  one or the other with the breather removed . So do you think it would make 21 more hp (95 hp) with the stock cams and same heads ,stock exhaust ? Serious question .
A scientific theory summarizes a hypothesis
repeated testing establishes theory

Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2015, 03:13:48 PM »
I don't know. Both had no tune other than minor afr corrections and a canned timing map.
Tell ya what, I will do a set of heads for you to try in a similar situation but tuned before by you and after. I will sponsor the parts out of my pocket.

Offline strokerjlk

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2015, 03:51:09 PM »
I don't know. Both had no tune other than minor afr corrections and a canned timing map.
Tell ya what, I will do a set of heads for you to try in a similar situation but tuned before by you and after. I will sponsor the parts out of my pocket.
ok sounds good. I have  a set of stock 2008 take off heads,only ran on setup. stage 4 kit was added before delivery of the bike. if you like I can send you those and that will take some of the burden off you. this stuff excites me as much as big motors.
my plan is to go with HPI 58/62 T/B and cams later. if I like it well enough as a 96ci ,i might just leave it alone.
 
A scientific theory summarizes a hypothesis
repeated testing establishes theory

Offline bensfatboy

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2015, 07:17:00 PM »
I don't know. Both had no tune other than minor afr corrections and a canned timing map.
Tell ya what, I will do a set of heads for you to try in a similar situation but tuned before by you and after. I will sponsor the parts out of my pocket.

With all answered thus far, I'm thinking this is a BS sell job.

Offline sfmichael

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2015, 07:23:29 PM »
good thread  :up:
Colorado Springs, CO.

Offline Clayster

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2015, 06:07:52 AM »
I don't know. Both had no tune other than minor afr corrections and a canned timing map.
Tell ya what, I will do a set of heads for you to try in a similar situation but tuned before by you and after. I will sponsor the parts out of my pocket.

With all answered thus far, I'm thinking this is a BS sell job.
The vendor section on Don's board.  He pays for the right to say whatever he wants, sales pitch or not.  Besides, Don is one of the good guys who has offered good advice to the HD community here and on other boards for free for years.  Long before he opened his shop and started performing paid services.  Just look at what he has offered to do for free and have tested by a talented independent tuner. 

BTW, I've not used Don before but would not hesitate to do so.  I'm just standing up for a stand up guy.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 10:04:30 PM by Max Headflow »

Offline kd

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2015, 07:34:53 AM »
Ya, I'd say there's more chance of Ben being stroked by his indy than by Don.
KD

Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2015, 07:42:26 AM »
I don't know. Both had no tune other than minor afr corrections and a canned timing map.
Tell ya what, I will do a set of heads for you to try in a similar situation but tuned before by you and after. I will sponsor the parts out of my pocket.

With all answered thus far, I'm thinking this is a BS sell job.
If that was true I would not have the confidence to dip into my own pockets, which incidentally are not deep, and allow an independent test. Unfortunately I don't have a dyno and there are just now emerging a few good local tuners. Jim is one of the guys that optimizes the builds, and in this case that will be a before and after on the same dyno. Pretty straight forward, no tricks.

Offline JohnCA58

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2015, 07:54:05 AM »
 :up: :up:
YOLO

Offline sfmichael

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2015, 01:04:22 PM »
I don't know. Both had no tune other than minor afr corrections and a canned timing map.
Tell ya what, I will do a set of heads for you to try in a similar situation but tuned before by you and after. I will sponsor the parts out of my pocket.

With all answered thus far, I'm thinking this is a BS sell job.
If that was true I would not have the confidence to dip into my own pockets, which incidentally are not deep, and allow an independent test. Unfortunately I don't have a dyno and there are just now emerging a few good local tuners. Jim is one of the guys that optimizes the builds, and in this case that will be a before and after on the same dyno. Pretty straight forward, no tricks.

   :up:
Colorado Springs, CO.

Offline SOCS

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2015, 07:14:29 PM »
I don't know. Both had no tune other than minor afr corrections and a canned timing map.
Tell ya what, I will do a set of heads for you to try in a similar situation but tuned before by you and after. I will sponsor the parts out of my pocket.

With all answered thus far, I'm thinking this is a BS sell job.
BS sell job? This is a tech forum and there are two very talented and reputable members who are about to do a very cool test. Things like this are why I hang around here, not to read comments from rude jerks like you...

Offline N-gin

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2015, 07:59:12 PM »
Don, was this using stock valves?

Since it was a ThunderHeader was there a difference in the torque dip, that's usually associated with them?
I'm not here cause of a path before me, Im here cause of the burnout left behind

Online Durwood

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2015, 04:39:40 AM »
I too think this is a cool test, never can get enough R&D as far as I am concerned.

One thing I can tell you about Jim is he calls them like he sees them, you might not like what he says, but it will be the truth.

I see this as a win for everyone.

Jim will get a fresh set of Don's heads for his touring bike, this partially pays him for doing the testing and gives the forum some very useful data to chew on.

Don is the only one that has anything to lose from the way I see it, but we ALL know that any engine will benefit from head work, the question is how much?

Very cool gentlemen :up: :pop: