Author Topic: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only  (Read 3527 times)

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Offline HD Street Performance

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103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« on: November 26, 2015, 08:49:23 AM »
Local shop agreed to do an experiment, another that illustrates the value of porting. The bike was a stage 1 with thunderheader. Baseline was 68/90. Compression verified at 9.65:1.
Heads swapped to our Street Pro package with slightly larger 87cc chamber and .030 hg now 9.84:1. After only a few miles to warm up the bike it made 89/104. No other changes. This bike had thunder max auto tune and had by no way a finished tune. Not bad for an otherwise stock motor. Proves even with the mildest of cam  (stock) head porting has added value beyond the premium parts and superior valve job.

Offline JohnCA58

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2015, 10:48:30 AM »
Nice Don,    :up:
YOLO

Offline bensfatboy

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2015, 05:54:08 PM »
I have wanted to have my heads done, but my Indy keeps telling me that the only way to increase HP and TQ is more compression......and $$.

Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2015, 06:20:32 PM »
In this case 21 hp 14 tq with just head work. Add better cams and more compression and it goes up higher. These are $499 heads with all new parts.

Offline bensfatboy

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2015, 06:50:04 PM »
In this case 21 hp 14 tq with just head work. Add better cams and more compression and it goes up higher. These are $499 heads with all new parts.

I don't know whether or not your post was to my reply on the subject, but if so, are you trying to tell me that I could gain 21 hp and 14 tq with just head work for $499?

103 ci
se 254 cams
se hi flo ac
d&d fatcat 2 into 1

Really interested to know.

Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2015, 06:54:33 PM »
You have a good start. In this case a stage 1 motorcycle gained that. Would yours? No reputable porter would guarantee that. Combinations like yours do typically break 100 hp and 110 torque with heads and added compression.

Offline bensfatboy

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2015, 07:13:18 PM »
You have a good start. In this case a stage 1 motorcycle gained that. Would yours? No reputable porter would guarantee that. Combinations like yours do typically break 100 hp and 110 torque with heads and added compression.

Now you mention added compression to achieve the gains. I may be not be comprehending your original post. I am under the impression that the gains you stated were made by solely doing the head work with nothing else involved.  Please correct me if I misunderstood your post.

Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2015, 07:26:49 PM »
The compression added was minimal 9.65 vs 9.84:1.
This was planned to avoid issues due to the stock early closing cam. Your cam closes later and to properly match the cam to the rest of the combination the compression should be raised a bit more. Again just enough to compensate for a later closing intake. This is easily accomplished by a minor head cut. Compression added appropriately adds power and torque from the bottom to the top.

Offline bensfatboy

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2015, 07:44:41 PM »
The compression added was minimal 9.65 vs 9.84:1.
This was planned to avoid issues due to the stock early closing cam. Your cam closes later and to properly match the cam to the rest of the combination the compression should be raised a bit more. Again just enough to compensate for a later closing intake. This is easily accomplished by a minor head cut. Compression added appropriately adds power and torque from the bottom to the top.

OK Don, thanks for the clarification. I was kinda hoping I could get some substantially better numbers with just the porting. (Looking for a miracle).
Like I said above in a earlier post, my Indy said the way to gain hp and tq is compression and $$.  He's a real sharp guy when it comes to motorcycles and performance, so I guess he is right again.

Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2015, 08:24:32 AM »
The way to make street able horsepower and torque is with the appropriate compression for the parts combination. Those same heads will make up to 115/115 with a flat torque curve with just added compression and a longer cam. At that point the throttle body and injectors, not airflow, are the constraint.

Offline strokerjlk

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2015, 08:43:35 AM »
Local shop agreed to do an experiment, another that illustrates the value of porting. The bike was a stage 1 with thunderheader. Baseline was 68/90. Compression verified at 9.65:1.
Heads swapped to our Street Pro package with slightly larger 87cc chamber and .030 hg now 9.84:1. After only a few miles to warm up the bike it made 89/104. No other changes. This bike had thunder max auto tune and had by no way a finished tune. Not bad for an otherwise stock motor. Proves even with the mildest of cam  (stock) head porting has added value beyond the premium parts and superior valve job.
nice test Don.
i was / still might do the same with a 96 ci.
one thing to mention. the base numbers are from a untuned stock (stage 1 thunder header 68/90) 103ci. or i would hope so. if you tuned the bike as a stage1 should do 79-82 hp 98-105 tq.
 i have seen a bone stock 2012 FLHX make 77/98 when tuned  , so that needs to be brought into the equation.
so you are looking at 8-10 hp gain and the tq is a wash.
A scientific theory summarizes a hypothesis
repeated testing establishes theory

Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2015, 08:51:55 AM »
Jim that is your world, welcome to mine.  :emoGroan:
Both were tested on the same 250i with winpep 7 and in both cases with a tmax ecu auto tune. :down: the version with headwork was not allowed to correct just brought right to the dyno.

Offline strokerjlk

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2015, 12:19:49 PM »
Jim that is your world, welcome to mine.  :emoGroan:
Both were tested on the same 250i with winpep 7 and in both cases with a tmax ecu auto tune. :down: the version with headwork was not allowed to correct just brought right to the dyno.
Humm . The test was inconclusive then .
It's pretty simple tune the base bike for max power . Then tune the worked heads to max power.
My 96 made  70 hp bone stock with a tune.  74 or 76 hp  :scratch:  one or the other with the breather removed . So do you think it would make 21 more hp (95 hp) with the stock cams and same heads ,stock exhaust ? Serious question .
A scientific theory summarizes a hypothesis
repeated testing establishes theory

Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2015, 03:13:48 PM »
I don't know. Both had no tune other than minor afr corrections and a canned timing map.
Tell ya what, I will do a set of heads for you to try in a similar situation but tuned before by you and after. I will sponsor the parts out of my pocket.

Offline strokerjlk

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2015, 03:51:09 PM »
I don't know. Both had no tune other than minor afr corrections and a canned timing map.
Tell ya what, I will do a set of heads for you to try in a similar situation but tuned before by you and after. I will sponsor the parts out of my pocket.
ok sounds good. I have  a set of stock 2008 take off heads,only ran on setup. stage 4 kit was added before delivery of the bike. if you like I can send you those and that will take some of the burden off you. this stuff excites me as much as big motors.
my plan is to go with HPI 58/62 T/B and cams later. if I like it well enough as a 96ci ,i might just leave it alone.
 
A scientific theory summarizes a hypothesis
repeated testing establishes theory

Offline bensfatboy

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2015, 07:17:00 PM »
I don't know. Both had no tune other than minor afr corrections and a canned timing map.
Tell ya what, I will do a set of heads for you to try in a similar situation but tuned before by you and after. I will sponsor the parts out of my pocket.

With all answered thus far, I'm thinking this is a BS sell job.

Offline sfmichael

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2015, 07:23:29 PM »
good thread  :up:
Colorado Springs, CO.

Offline Clayster

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2015, 06:07:52 AM »
I don't know. Both had no tune other than minor afr corrections and a canned timing map.
Tell ya what, I will do a set of heads for you to try in a similar situation but tuned before by you and after. I will sponsor the parts out of my pocket.

With all answered thus far, I'm thinking this is a BS sell job.
The vendor section on Don's board.  He pays for the right to say whatever he wants, sales pitch or not.  Besides, Don is one of the good guys who has offered good advice to the HD community here and on other boards for free for years.  Long before he opened his shop and started performing paid services.  Just look at what he has offered to do for free and have tested by a talented independent tuner. 

BTW, I've not used Don before but would not hesitate to do so.  I'm just standing up for a stand up guy.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 10:04:30 PM by Max Headflow »

Offline kd

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2015, 07:34:53 AM »
Ya, I'd say there's more chance of Ben being stroked by his indy than by Don.
KD

Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2015, 07:42:26 AM »
I don't know. Both had no tune other than minor afr corrections and a canned timing map.
Tell ya what, I will do a set of heads for you to try in a similar situation but tuned before by you and after. I will sponsor the parts out of my pocket.

With all answered thus far, I'm thinking this is a BS sell job.
If that was true I would not have the confidence to dip into my own pockets, which incidentally are not deep, and allow an independent test. Unfortunately I don't have a dyno and there are just now emerging a few good local tuners. Jim is one of the guys that optimizes the builds, and in this case that will be a before and after on the same dyno. Pretty straight forward, no tricks.

Offline JohnCA58

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2015, 07:54:05 AM »
 :up: :up:
YOLO

Offline sfmichael

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2015, 01:04:22 PM »
I don't know. Both had no tune other than minor afr corrections and a canned timing map.
Tell ya what, I will do a set of heads for you to try in a similar situation but tuned before by you and after. I will sponsor the parts out of my pocket.

With all answered thus far, I'm thinking this is a BS sell job.
If that was true I would not have the confidence to dip into my own pockets, which incidentally are not deep, and allow an independent test. Unfortunately I don't have a dyno and there are just now emerging a few good local tuners. Jim is one of the guys that optimizes the builds, and in this case that will be a before and after on the same dyno. Pretty straight forward, no tricks.

   :up:
Colorado Springs, CO.

Offline SOCS

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2015, 07:14:29 PM »
I don't know. Both had no tune other than minor afr corrections and a canned timing map.
Tell ya what, I will do a set of heads for you to try in a similar situation but tuned before by you and after. I will sponsor the parts out of my pocket.

With all answered thus far, I'm thinking this is a BS sell job.
BS sell job? This is a tech forum and there are two very talented and reputable members who are about to do a very cool test. Things like this are why I hang around here, not to read comments from rude jerks like you...

Offline N-gin

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2015, 07:59:12 PM »
Don, was this using stock valves?

Since it was a ThunderHeader was there a difference in the torque dip, that's usually associated with them?
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Online Durwood

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2015, 04:39:40 AM »
I too think this is a cool test, never can get enough R&D as far as I am concerned.

One thing I can tell you about Jim is he calls them like he sees them, you might not like what he says, but it will be the truth.

I see this as a win for everyone.

Jim will get a fresh set of Don's heads for his touring bike, this partially pays him for doing the testing and gives the forum some very useful data to chew on.

Don is the only one that has anything to lose from the way I see it, but we ALL know that any engine will benefit from head work, the question is how much?

Very cool gentlemen :up: :pop:

Offline strokerjlk

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2015, 10:13:01 PM »
I don't know. Both had no tune other than minor afr corrections and a canned timing map.
Tell ya what, I will do a set of heads for you to try in a similar situation but tuned before by you and after. I will sponsor the parts out of my pocket.

With all answered thus far, I'm thinking this is a BS sell job.
I think it was an honest test ,with what Don was working with. if the bike had a weak tune (canned map) with the t max on the stage 1 thunder header ,his numbers are believable.
it can happen with a pipe change and a canned map,you go backwards ,until you can get it dialed in. if it was just auto tuned to run decent ,it is believable.
then the heads get installed and they tweak it a little and it and it is what it is. it might even do better. .i think the tq has a chance to go 115 at peak with the stock cams,on a 2012 103 .
when you asked Don if you could gain 21 hp with just heads ,he told you no you wouldn't. he was basing this of a good tuned 103/254 combo. but if you had a weak tuned 103/254 stock head combo it is possible to gain that 20 hp with heads. if you have a good tuned 103/254 and do head work you would see 10 hp gain.


to be honest I didn't even see that this was in the vendor section. I try to stay off the vendors sites usually. I just clicked on "show un read post since last visit" and saw the title of the thread and opened it because it caught my attention. 
so please don't think I was working some kinda BS sell job, I gave my input before I found out any info, and then after.
as far as Don and I working a BS sell job,I assure you that isnt going on either.


I think Don saw an opportunity,to gain some knowledge,and took advantage of it. it is no secret that I have a bone stock 96 ci bike that I am going to do something with. I have mentioned a few ideas on here lately. Don also knows these are the kind of tests I like doing.
I have fresh set of big valve stock casting heads already,and a set of MVA's that I was considering testing on a 96.
I also want to just bolt a HPI 58/62 throttle body on the stock 96 and see what it does.
Dons offer sounds better suited to a stock piston 96ci.
I am in Don... if you want to go through with the test? I will get these 08 casting in the mail in the next few days. you can send me a set you have done,or do mine. makes no diff to me.
A scientific theory summarizes a hypothesis
repeated testing establishes theory

Offline bootit

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2015, 02:36:22 AM »
This is interesting. Hope you go through with it, have it bookmarked.

Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2015, 05:08:45 AM »
Send the heads Jim. Thanks.

Offline strokerjlk

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2015, 07:23:55 PM »
Send the heads Jim. Thanks.
on the way. thank you :beer:
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Online FXDBI

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2015, 06:17:39 PM »
Awesome thanks to the BOTH of you for facilitating this be very interesting to see the difference on a dyno.  Bob

Offline harleytuner

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2015, 05:16:04 AM »
IMO it's not a BS sell job, legit results for the bike it was done to.  When I get a bike in for performance work I always do a baseline run on the dyno.  Then the customer can see what they gained for the money they spent.  If the bike doesn't have a good tune in it as received that's not my problem. I'm not going to tune it to show them what it could've made before I do the work, no time for that. 

Good job Don.  Ill be looking forward to Jim's results.
Enjoying the hell out of my "hotted" up twincam

Offline strokerjlk

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2015, 06:48:52 PM »
I tuned my 2007 96 ci ultra today. it has the air cleaner removed for both these tunes. one was on E-10 93 octane pump gas. the other is on pump E-85. this is the same E-85 that has been sitting in my shop since spring.[/font]the E-10 was tuned first. the bike was ran[/font]until it ran out of fuel. i added E-85 and re-tuned. this was all done back to back today. the bike has stock 2007 headpipe,with klockworks slip on's. everything else is stock.unfortunately the stock clutch wont handle the extra tq the E-85 is producing. but you get the idea. it gained 3 hp and  8 tq with the clutch slipping.

[/size]the run #6 will be the baseline ,before adding the ported heads.
[/size]
A scientific theory summarizes a hypothesis
repeated testing establishes theory

Offline strokerjlk

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2015, 06:50:09 PM »
baseline
A scientific theory summarizes a hypothesis
repeated testing establishes theory

Offline Hossamania

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #33 on: December 17, 2015, 02:46:05 PM »
I have just found this thread and look forward to seeing the results. Thank you to both of you for providing hard, real test results. It will definitely be something I can show to others to convince them that first, a proper tune is worth every penny, and second, show what headwork can do on top of that.
Don, is $499 the cost of the work you will be doing on these heads?
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Online 1FSTRK

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #34 on: December 19, 2015, 04:22:51 PM »
The compression added was minimal 9.65 vs 9.84:1.
This was planned to avoid issues due to the stock early closing cam.

Could you please explain what issues you are referring to?

Why would you need to raise compression for an early closing stock cam on a flow work comparison?


 

Offline Admiral Akbar

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #35 on: December 19, 2015, 10:20:57 PM »
While this thread seemed to bobble around a little.. The OPs results could be valid but I wouldn't give all the credit to the heads.. Tighter squish will effect performance.. The bike used a Tmax.. If the timing and target AFR was more optimum for the later head, the results would show more bias than heads alone... Bike really needs to be tuned for both configurations..  It would be nice to see the runs.. It would add credibility to the claim..

Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2016, 10:54:05 AM »
Max
Thanks for cleaning this up.
I have completed the heads for Jims base 96" test and will be shipping them tomorrow.
For the test I flowed the heads as they arrived as-is and after our Street Pro head porting.
The chambers were milled to 85cc which required less than a .010 cut. These are our standard issue Street Pro heads the same product others receive and it will be interesting to see what happens on a stock block 96. Valves are AV&V 1.9 and 1.575. Despite the fact I test the Street Pro heads at .700 lift that is not a safe area with the stock OEM beehives. Maximum recommended lift with these heads is .600 but they can be pushed to .625
Thanks to Jim Kennedy for the help.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2016, 11:00:49 AM by HD Street Performance »

Offline sfmichael

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #37 on: January 03, 2016, 11:21:52 AM »
Very Impressive - thanks for sharing Don
Colorado Springs, CO.

Offline sixxfoot

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #38 on: January 03, 2016, 07:32:25 PM »
This should be good
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Offline SOCS

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #39 on: January 03, 2016, 08:07:57 PM »
 :pop:

Offline ultraswede

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #40 on: January 07, 2016, 04:30:32 AM »
 :up:

Offline N-gin

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #41 on: January 14, 2016, 10:12:53 PM »
 :up:
 :pop:
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Offline patrickbilt

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Re: 103 2012 FLHT 103 Ported Heads Only
« Reply #42 on: February 07, 2016, 08:41:13 AM »
Waiting for results

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