Author Topic: Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"  (Read 3419 times)

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Offline 1FSTRK

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Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"
« on: January 14, 2016, 03:15:09 PM »
Don
Could you give us a complete parts and process description on just what these heads will be and the cost as shipped to Jim?


Offline N-gin

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Re: Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2016, 09:55:43 PM »
 :pop:
I'm not here cause of a path before me, Im here cause of the burnout left behind

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2016, 11:01:08 AM »
I see your site lists the 06-up Pro Street head at $499.00 and in your post on Jim's dyno thread you state that is what you sent him. This looks like a great value.

What does "can be pushed to .625" mean?
Are there any cam restrictions? ( cams under the lift limit that would not work with these heads for other reasons)
What is the minimum chamber cc's available with this head?
Can I run SE 1.725 ratio rockers with this head?

Offline sfmichael

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Re: Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2016, 06:11:45 PM »
 :pop:
Colorado Springs, CO.

Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2016, 10:19:41 AM »
I see your site lists the 06-up Pro Street head at $499.00 and in your post on Jim's dyno thread you state that is what you sent him. This looks like a great value.

What does "can be pushed to .625" mean?
It means there is still adequate coil bind distance but the cam choice would dictate if it was feasible or not

Are there any cam restrictions? ( cams under the lift limit that would not work with these heads for other reasons) All will work but the very high rate fringe which I am sure you know which they are
What is the minimum chamber cc's available with this head? 79cc
Can I run SE 1.725 ratio rockers with this head? Not if the gross lift exceeds the stated maximum

Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2016, 10:27:24 AM »
Don
Could you give us a complete parts and process description on just what these heads will be and the cost as shipped to Jim?

All of this information is on my website for your perusal
I won't get into all of the technical aspects other than state all the parts are new AV&V parts with the exception of the springs which are upgradeable at +$100 to AV&V beehives. Valves are 1.9 / 1.575
I am happy to discuss with my customers when and why to use these springs and design their individual combinations with them.

Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2016, 10:43:52 AM »
In the interest of honesty and disclosure:
I had issues with my flow bench and needed to change some motors. As part of routine maintenance I did re-calibrate the bench.
This was done with calibrated edge orifice plates from 50-400cfm with 5 different plates.
By doing so I have adjusted the flow numbers and am reposting the flow numbers on Jims heads which are typical for our Street Pro heads. All of these heads are supplied with 4 pages of data including an actual flow test of the customers heads.
Fixturing, an important aspect of testing heads, especially when trying to compare numbers between different benches, is done with a 3.875 bore cylinder, 1.71" ID 2" long velocity stack


Offline sfmichael

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Re: Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2016, 11:43:32 AM »
great results  :up: :up:
Colorado Springs, CO.

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2016, 11:55:38 AM »
I thought a healthy conversation here on Don's heads and Jim's testing would bring some traffic to this section and to the advantages of porting work.

Excellent info Don thank you for the replies.

Added
Looking forward to the graphs from Jim's bike.
I have posted tests like this in the past and yet people continue to question or misunderstand the value of head work.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2016, 12:22:55 PM by 1FSTRK »

Offline IRONMIKE113

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Re: Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2016, 02:27:43 PM »
I myself have his head work on my Stock 113, And I'm here to tell you they work,And I would not hesitate to use them again,We are very fortunate to have some of the best head porters on this site,And we all know who they are,their work speaks for itself........  :wink:
3 Bikes and a Beemer,At least that's what I have been told 😂

Offline BUGLET

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Re: Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2016, 05:43:22 AM »
  I've trying heads from different porters. Don's happen to be one of them. All I can say they do what he says + and for the value he's on top of my list.   

Offline strokerjlk

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Re: Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2016, 07:14:50 AM »
In the interest of honesty and disclosure:
I had issues with my flow bench and needed to change some motors. As part of routine maintenance I did re-calibrate the bench.
This was done with calibrated edge orifice plates from 50-400cfm with 5 different plates.
By doing so I have adjusted the flow numbers and am reposting the flow numbers on Jims heads which are typical for our Street Pro heads. All of these heads are supplied with 4 pages of data including an actual flow test of the customers heads.
Fixturing, an important aspect of testing heads, especially when trying to compare numbers between different benches, is done with a 3.875 bore cylinder, 1.71" ID 2" long velocity stack
Thanks Don
Flow # are corrected to 285 /225 ? Valves are 1.6 and 1.57? 1.71 port ?
I have the heads on and bike is running .
I am excited to see the outcome . Probably take a couple more days , I have a couple other things to do before I can get to it .
It feels diff and sounds a little diff , with the heads on .
A scientific theory summarizes a hypothesis
repeated testing establishes theory

Offline N-gin

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Re: Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2016, 07:48:25 AM »
In the interest of honesty and disclosure:
I had issues with my flow bench and needed to change some motors. As part of routine maintenance I did re-calibrate the bench.
This was done with calibrated edge orifice plates from 50-400cfm with 5 different plates.
By doing so I have adjusted the flow numbers and am reposting the flow numbers on Jims heads which are typical for our Street Pro heads. All of these heads are supplied with 4 pages of data including an actual flow test of the customers heads.
Fixturing, an important aspect of testing heads, especially when trying to compare numbers between different benches, is done with a 3.875 bore cylinder, 1.71" ID 2" long velocity stack
Thanks Don
Flow # are corrected to 285 /225 ? Valves are 1.6 and 1.57? 1.71 port ?
I have the heads on and bike is running .
I am excited to see the outcome . Probably take a couple more days , I have a couple other things to do before I can get to it .
It feels diff and sounds a little diff , with the heads on .

sorry if I might have missed this, what cams? Other info on engine?
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Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2016, 09:32:48 AM »
It is a stock 96 with .030hg.
Jim the heads flow 280 intake and I will have to check exhaust but I think that was at 220

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2016, 10:22:10 AM »
Don this is exactly why I thought it would help if you did a complete spec on your heads and the bike, people need to know the details on both to appreciate the gains are truly from heads alone in a legitimate back to back testing environment.

There is just no comparison between this 96" test and what you posted about the 103" in your other thread.

Read through the posts and look at the different flow numbers, and valve sizes already mentioned and corrected.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2016, 10:24:44 AM by 1FSTRK »

Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2016, 12:12:18 PM »
The heads are the same, it will show from the bottom up when and if heads alone are value added or not. This is a stage 1 96. Let er rip and we will see what happens.

Offline strokerjlk

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Re: Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2016, 12:45:32 PM »
Here is where we are starting from. 2007 ultra 96 ci stock engine .
Reinhert true duals . ( old style 3.5") performance baffles .
Green high flow air filter .
Once again . This is a test to see the gains for a set of ported heads , on a stock engine . ( stock cams, lifters , pushrods )
The bike has been tuned as seen below as a stage 1
A scientific theory summarizes a hypothesis
repeated testing establishes theory

Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2016, 12:57:32 PM »
It is a baseline test. A combination that I have never been asked to supply heads for, a stock cammed motor that is. If there was a demand I would actually lead them to our TQ heads.

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2016, 01:06:24 PM »
It is a baseline test. A combination that I have never been asked to supply heads for, a stock cammed motor that is. If there was a demand I would actually lead them to our TQ heads.

What would be the difference between the TQ head and this one on this test engine?

Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2016, 01:21:18 PM »
Higher intake velocity due to a smaller choke and CSA.
A similar head to the SE CNC heads at a 30% discount with better guides.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2016, 01:23:39 PM by HD Street Performance »

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2016, 01:40:54 PM »
Higher intake velocity due to a smaller choke and CSA.
A similar head to the SE CNC heads at a 30% discount with better guides.

Lets not confuse things with some other brand of head.
For most customers it comes down to power and price. In this case it is between your TQ heads and your Pro street heads you provided to Jim.

It is a baseline test. A combination that I have never been asked to supply heads for, a stock cammed motor that is. If there was a demand I would actually lead them to our TQ heads.

Do you mean the TQ head will do the same job as the Pro street in this case at a cheaper price?
« Last Edit: January 19, 2016, 01:45:06 PM by 1FSTRK »

Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2016, 01:56:18 PM »
Have a look at my website
Jim's heads are the "Street Pro" package.
The "Street Pro TQ" heads are the same cost.
Any customer of mine can call me and we determine the best fit for their application. No confusion its very basic

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2016, 02:28:36 PM »
 This thread is about one of your heads being tested on a specific bike and looks like it will be a very good, very honest test. Why in the world would you bring up a different head that you also offer in this thread.

I did not bring up your TQ head you did. I just asked why you said you would recommend your TQ head for this application instead of what you sent Jim ?

You keep referring me to your web site, I can't get that answer from reading your web site. You paid to have this spot on HTT to promote your products and this gives us as prospective customers a place to ask some questions and get the answers.

I am asking polite, intelligent questions that I would like the answers to, at the same time they are for the most part great big softballs that you should be hitting out of the park full of information and yet you seem to do everything but just post a simple answer.


Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"
« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2016, 03:01:52 PM »
I provided a well documented head that has proven results just never on a stock motor. This test will progress up the ladder.

Offline Just Nick

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Re: Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"
« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2016, 08:08:03 PM »
This thread is about one of your heads being tested on a specific bike and looks like it will be a very good, very honest test. Why in the world would you bring up a different head that you also offer in this thread.

I did not bring up your TQ head you did. I just asked why you said you would recommend your TQ head for this application instead of what you sent Jim ?

You keep referring me to your web site, I can't get that answer from reading your web site. You paid to have this spot on HTT to promote your products and this gives us as prospective customers a place to ask some questions and get the answers.

I am asking polite, intelligent questions that I would like the answers to, at the same time they are for the most part great big softballs that you should be hitting out of the park full of information and yet you seem to do everything but just post a simple answer.

A little harsh there he was just stating that he has never been asked to do a set of heads for a stock engine and if he was what heads he would use. Personally I don't think this test matters because of what Don stated who is going to port a set of heads for a stock top end stock cam bike it's pointless. I think if say a set of cams that would work as a stg 2 cams that you could use in a stg 4 bike were installed and tuned with some 10.5/1 Pistons then pull the heads and do the porting and retune it would be a more viable test or comparison. But it will be interesting to see what ported heads on a stock 96" will do. Good on ya Don for putting your work up for a interesting test.
I'm never wrong , once I thought I was wrong , but I was wrong

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2016, 03:28:12 AM »
This thread is about one of your heads being tested on a specific bike and looks like it will be a very good, very honest test. Why in the world would you bring up a different head that you also offer in this thread.

I did not bring up your TQ head you did. I just asked why you said you would recommend your TQ head for this application instead of what you sent Jim ?

You keep referring me to your web site, I can't get that answer from reading your web site. You paid to have this spot on HTT to promote your products and this gives us as prospective customers a place to ask some questions and get the answers.

I am asking polite, intelligent questions that I would like the answers to, at the same time they are for the most part great big softballs that you should be hitting out of the park full of information and yet you seem to do everything but just post a simple answer.

A little harsh there he was just stating that he has never been asked to do a set of heads for a stock engine and if he was what heads he would use. Personally I don't think this test matters because of what Don stated who is going to port a set of heads for a stock top end stock cam bike it's pointless. I think if say a set of cams that would work as a stg 2 cams that you could use in a stg 4 bike were installed and tuned with some 10.5/1 Pistons then pull the heads and do the porting and retune it would be a more viable test or comparison. But it will be interesting to see what ported heads on a stock 96" will do. Good on ya Don for putting your work up for a interesting test.

Once again all I did was ask a question about a statement he made and has yet to answer.

As far as your statement that the test does not matter, Don was the one that brought the subject up with his claims in the 103 thread he started. Why on earth would you guys deem this test meaningless before you even see the outcome? For those seeking the honest results it has meaning.

Why all the hostility and drama over a couple questions. Don and his supporters seem to project some evil on to anything I ask. This it starting to be reminiscent of the Palmer crowd.

This will be a fine test, it may not fit a sales agenda or back any unrealistic claims but that is what makes it such a good test. Lets just wait and see the result before we start trashing the outcome.  :hug:
 

Offline mayor

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Re: Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"
« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2016, 04:24:23 AM »
Once again . This is a test to see the gains for a set of ported heads , on a stock engine . ( stock cams, lifters , pushrods )
I think this will be an interesting test.  I have doubts that the stock '07 cams (with no overlap) will allow the tq curve to extend very far to the right though.  Is it safe to assume that a change in cams will be another test done at a later date?
warning, this poster suffers from bizarre delusions

Offline strokerjlk

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Re: Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"
« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2016, 06:46:37 AM »
Quote
  Is it safe to assume that a change in cams will be another test done at a later date?
You can count on it .
A scientific theory summarizes a hypothesis
repeated testing establishes theory

Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"
« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2016, 08:01:16 AM »
Once again . This is a test to see the gains for a set of ported heads , on a stock engine . ( stock cams, lifters , pushrods )
I think this will be an interesting test.  I have doubts that the stock '07 cams (with no overlap) will allow the tq curve to extend very far to the right though.  Is it safe to assume that a change in cams will be another test done at a later date?
I appreciate everything Jim is doing and he has full control of the test and what the incremental changes will be.
Mike the stock cams do have overlap just not when measured at .050. Granted the overlap is minimal.
Thanks for your comments.

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2016, 06:34:44 AM »
Don could you give us the Stem protrusion for the intake and ex on your street pro heads?
Thank you

Offline harleytuner

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Re: Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2016, 09:33:33 AM »
I find it interesting just to see how much stock heads are holding a relatively stock bike back.  We've all done stage II big bores w/o headwork, then added heads and seen what the lack of good heads do on a "build".  This will be good to see what HD is leaving on the table right off the assembly line.  I imagine we will see pretty good gains from this.  It's not something that there is/will be a demand for in my market, but interesting no the less.
Enjoying the hell out of my "hotted" up twincam

Offline N-gin

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Re: Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2016, 10:05:48 AM »
That stock cam might be a healthy alternative to the 255.  :wink:
also save money..
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Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"
« Reply #32 on: January 21, 2016, 10:36:23 AM »
The HO cam is a small step up without the PMS. At 96" there wouldn't be any issue other than noise.

Offline IRONMIKE113

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Re: Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"
« Reply #33 on: January 21, 2016, 01:23:16 PM »
 :pop:
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Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"
« Reply #34 on: January 24, 2016, 09:40:33 AM »
The results are posted in this thread
http://harleytechtalk.com/index.php/topic,88341.125.html

89 / 99 pretty respectable.
+11hp and +2TQ with just a slight loss of low end torque.

I remember years ago when an "A" motor 95" with TW26, $299 head work, and added compression made similar numbers. This was on a DJ150 and the drive train was early 5 speed.

Offline strokerjlk

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Re: Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"
« Reply #35 on: January 31, 2016, 12:43:55 PM »

Thanks Don for your work. I got a couple hr ride in today. you can sure feel the diff.
this has opened my eyes a little .
progress from bone stock to stage 1 ,and then your heads on the stage 1

A scientific theory summarizes a hypothesis
repeated testing establishes theory

Offline sfmichael

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Re: Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"
« Reply #36 on: February 02, 2016, 05:45:29 PM »
excellent comparison - looking forward to the cam swap  :pop:

thanks for the knowledge  :up:
Colorado Springs, CO.

Offline Carl 1969

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Re: Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"
« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2016, 11:43:27 AM »
Looks like tho it "only" gained 2lb ft peak, that there's quite a bit more area under the curve.

Big seat of the pants difference?
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Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"
« Reply #38 on: February 07, 2016, 12:48:12 PM »
Careful throwing swords at what is to be considered an incremental move not a suggested combination of parts. Just a test. I have never been asked to optimize a head package to work with a stock 96" but the heads would be a bit different than these if I did. Stay tuned

Offline Carl 1969

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Re: Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"
« Reply #39 on: February 07, 2016, 04:56:33 PM »
If you're referring to my post, I'm not knocking them at all. Looks like they making a good bit more power overall.

Looking forward to seeing what happens with a cam.
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Offline strokerjlk

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Re: Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"
« Reply #40 on: March 08, 2016, 07:12:52 AM »

this is what it did with the cams

A scientific theory summarizes a hypothesis
repeated testing establishes theory

Offline strokerjlk

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Re: Gains from HDSP ported heads on a Stage 1 96"
« Reply #41 on: March 08, 2016, 07:14:21 AM »
this is the stock cams vs the SP 232 cams
A scientific theory summarizes a hypothesis
repeated testing establishes theory