Author Topic: TB size  (Read 3861 times)

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Offline GMR-PERFORMANCE

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TB size
« on: October 07, 2016, 09:29:18 AM »
In the past there have been several posts on what size to use pros and cons etc.. Well Just recently I had a tune from a dealer.. Bike is a 2016 RG they installed a 124 HC S&S crate engine into the bike. 66 MM SS with S&S air cleaner with DD zilla pipe.. Well the guy wanted super smooth down rpm " like stock" he is chugging through schools zones and the pipe is too loud .. Think 1850 RPM in 2nd gear.. Not happy to say the least.. Well the bike came back I swapped the 66 to a SE 58 with SE heavy breather retuned. No other changes . The bike will now do what he wants ( its his bike so right or wrong its how he rides it ) overlay of the two with weather stack readings.

Just some back to back to look at .. as well with the 66 it was not happy making the pull from 2000 either as far as being smooth , with the 58 it was fine.


« Last Edit: October 11, 2016, 07:20:39 AM by GMR-PERFORMANCE »
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Offline kd

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Re: TB size
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2016, 09:36:20 AM »
Interesting all round change to the good.   :up:  Good information. Thanks
KD

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: TB size
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2016, 10:11:12 AM »
Good info as always Steve. Does the S&S66 flow much more than the SE58, both out of the box?
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Offline wfolarry

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Re: TB size
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2016, 10:33:09 AM »
Never liked those S&S TB's. This is more proof why.

Offline GMR-PERFORMANCE

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Re: TB size
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2016, 10:59:19 AM »
Never liked those S&S TB's. This is more proof why.


Larry I have the 66 on my own bike and have to say that I am a not impressed either.. I plan on going back to either a 58 or 62 HPI this winter when I do all of the pipe testing. It runs well but one thing that that bugs me is say a 5th or 6 th gear light roll on is so unresponsive. riding that last bike from the 66 to the 58 was shocking at how much of a change it made .  :up:
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Offline drhooligan

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Re: TB size
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2016, 11:08:09 AM »
I've seen some very strong charts of 117s and 120s with a 55 TB.
2007 FXDWG 120", Hillside Stage 3 Heads, 10.6:1, TW777, V&H 2:1, HPI55, 5.3 g/s

Offline Jammer53

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Re: TB size
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2016, 11:26:45 AM »
TB?  Throttle body? 

Sorry. Just learning.
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Offline Coff 06

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Re: TB size
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2016, 11:30:14 AM »
TB?  Throttle body? 

Sorry. Just learning.




   Correct.            Coff 06
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Offline Jammer53

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Re: TB size
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2016, 11:54:01 AM »
TB?  Throttle body? 

Sorry. Just learning.




   Correct.            Coff 06

Thanks Coff.
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Offline JohnCA58

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Re: TB size
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2016, 03:19:37 PM »
Had a HPi 51mm sent back to HPi and converted to 55mm for the 120,  great parking lot and all around performance.
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Offline wfolarry

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Re: TB size
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2016, 03:34:51 PM »
Had a HPi 51mm sent back to HPi and converted to 55mm for the 120,  great parking lot and all around performance.

The HPI 55 is one of my favorites.  :up:

Offline hogasm

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Re: TB size
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2016, 04:21:59 PM »
Did you use the same injectors for each TB
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Offline build it

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Re: TB size
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2016, 04:24:10 PM »
That's pretty impressive.

It'd be interesting to know what each combination flowed (TB and head). Kinda gives some credence to SE parts  :up:
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Offline 2006FXDCI

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Re: TB size
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2016, 06:06:28 PM »
Had a HPi 51mm sent back to HPi and converted to 55mm for the 120,  great parking lot and all around performance.

The HPI 55 is one of my favorites.  :up:
I have a HPI 55 on my 124" , made 145/140 on it using 6.2 injectors
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Offline 03NhHarley

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Re: TB size
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2016, 06:12:47 PM »
On my 117" I went from a hpi 51mm to a 58/62. Both 1.800 runners. The 51 seemed so much more responsive. Actually come to think of it the HPI 51 and thunderheader seemed funner/ quicker than the 58/62 with a zilla. Could just be me cause I have no numbers to prove it.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2016, 06:23:23 PM by 03NhHarley »

Offline Matt C

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Re: TB size
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2016, 07:38:39 PM »
Flow numbers only give half of the picture (just like with heads). Velocity is very important and often overlooked.
This exercise drives home that point. Enjoy yourselves y'all, its Friday night!  :bike:

Offline pwmorris

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Re: TB size
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2016, 08:33:01 PM »
Excellent straight up swap-

Not suprised-The flow numbers untouched from the factory, of the 58 vs the 66 (313 vs 324), aren't a huge gap between them, and with untouched Superstock heads not flowing very much, the velocity of the 58 appears to be correct intake for this 124". As usual, matching correct parts is key, and why so many fail when trying to achieve big HP.
A 124" with B2's and/or a comp bump or different cam profile, or a similar test with a 126" or 143" I would think would show different results.

Offline drhooligan

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Re: TB size
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2016, 06:09:15 AM »
How far can you go with 4.9 injectors?
2007 FXDWG 120", Hillside Stage 3 Heads, 10.6:1, TW777, V&H 2:1, HPI55, 5.3 g/s

Offline build it

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Re: TB size
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2016, 07:26:03 AM »
66 MM SS with S&S air cleaner with DD zilla pipe..
SE 58 with SE heavy breather retuned. No other changes .
Not a real comparison... my money's on the HB made the difference.

I tried a similar test on a built 95", between a 50mm SE and a HPI 55mm both with the same HB.  without the HB the HPI 55mm did nothing more.  with a HB [FWIW the HB was for the dyna and had the smaller ID that just happened to be the same as the ID of the entrance into the HPI 55mm] the bike ran stronger.

The HB for the TBW TB's is close to the same ID as the SE 58mm TB [I'm not talking about blade diameter but the entrance/opening of the TB, iirc the id is 63 64.9mm on the HB]

edited: if we up scale the 95" by 31% = 124.45"; and the TB 55mm by 31% = 72.05mm

Good catch Q1! Not exactly an AB test, not sure if a true AB test is possible though?
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Offline q1svt

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Re: TB size
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2016, 08:11:37 AM »
Sure, for just a heads up, run them both without an air cleaner...

IMHO, the SE58mm will not like the second gear and 1850 RPM either.

For a performance comparison you'll need a Heavy Breather with similar ID/Cross-seation as the S&S 66 intake diameter.  IMHO it too will run low RPM as the SE 58 did.

Harley's problem with any TB is the intake runner [plus TB] is just too F'ing short unless you plan on running over 10,000 RPM  :wink:
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Offline Admiral Akbar

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Re: TB size
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2016, 08:38:55 AM »
66 MM SS with S&S air cleaner with DD zilla pipe..
SE 58 with SE heavy breather retuned. No other changes .
Not a real comparison... my money's on the HB made the difference.

I tried a similar test on a built 95", between a 50mm SE and a HPI 55mm both with the same HB.  without the HB the HPI 55mm did nothing more.  with a HB [FWIW the HB was for the dyna and had the smaller ID that just happened to be the same as the ID of the entrance into the HPI 55mm] the bike ran stronger.

The HB for the TBW TB's is close to the same ID as the SE 58mm TB [I'm not talking about blade diameter but the entrance/opening of the TB, iirc the id is 63 64.9mm on the HB]

edited: if we up scale the 95" by 31% = 124.45"; and the TB 55mm by 31% = 72.05mm

To scale the diameter correctly ref flow you need to multiply by the square root of 1.31... 
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Offline q1svt

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Re: TB size
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2016, 09:41:39 AM »
 :up: thanks I thought of that after I left the house... I'm driving but post the correct number if you will [think it's about 63/64mm].  but there are many additional factors/issue with the scaling from the 95" to a 124" for any real comparison, the SE Heavy Breather is the key factor of the difference between the 124" and the two TBW 58 & 66 TB's.

FWIW, always nice to see your posts  :wink:
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Offline Matt C

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Re: TB size
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2016, 11:33:11 AM »
Harley's problem with any TB is the intake runner [plus TB] is just too F'ing short unless you plan on running over 10,000 RPM  :wink:

 :agree:

(It's also too short for 10,000 rpm, but who's counting...lol)

Offline pwmorris

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Re: TB size
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2016, 02:12:18 PM »
I understood the purpose of the test to be which would be the ideal intake on this customers' S&S crate 124". The filter swap could change the results (or maybe not as I have also seen basically zero change swapping filter/breather elements). As is, with this pipe and tune combo in this test, the 58 appears to have better street manors, and overall power numbers across the board did not suffer, or actually were better.
Again, if your motor (heads) don't have the big lungs to breathe and move that N/A air, not only ain't you gonna gain anything with bigger and bigger volume induction-you will lose velocity, low speed manors, and even HP.
Or course, too small, and it suffers the other way as a choke point.
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Offline Nastytls

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Re: TB size
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2016, 03:31:01 PM »
I thought that I had read on here somewhere they the SE 58mm is not any good. The HPI55mm is supposedly better. It seems in this case it's a really good TB.