Author Topic: New MOCO Bluetooth system  (Read 1527 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Rockout Rocker Products

  • Premium Vendor
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2099
  • Country: us
  • www.rockout.biz
    • www.rockout.biz
New MOCO Bluetooth system
« on: August 27, 2017, 08:32:07 AM »
Question for someone that REALLY knows the HD Boom audio system & flashing...

My '15 Limited has the full Biketronics 4180/7.1 system, plus Polks in the rear. It has the old, no longer available flash... something like 8 speakers, amps no, amps on yes... makes no sense I know. But..... it sounds great and doesn't need the "line levelers", in fact they make it sound worse. I also haven't upgraded to software since version 19.something.... everything works, every time there's an upgrade it seems to fix something & kill something else.

 The new Bluetooth system requires a dealer flash to enable it, also requires updating to the latest software version. Would that overwrite my old unobtainium flash? Or is that flash separate?

 I really want the wireless system but not if it's going to mean losing the great audio I have now.

 Thanks  :beer: :beer:
www.rockout.biz Stop the top end TAPPING!!

Offline UltraNutZ

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 3658
  • Country: us
  • 2012 FLHTK VTPBB
Re: New MOCO Bluetooth system
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2017, 08:42:15 AM »
it's going to update everything. 
Politicians are like diapers.
They need to be changed for the same reasons

Offline Rockout Rocker Products

  • Premium Vendor
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2099
  • Country: us
  • www.rockout.biz
    • www.rockout.biz
Re: New MOCO Bluetooth system
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2017, 08:46:09 AM »
Not what I wanted to hear, but was expected.

 So... next question...

 Has anyone figured out how to make the 4180 system sound good with the new software? Looking around the forums all I see is disappointment.
www.rockout.biz Stop the top end TAPPING!!

Offline mstrobes

  • Member
  • Posts: 2
  • Country: us
Re: New MOCO Bluetooth system
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2017, 09:34:56 PM »
Anyone know if the new blue tooth can use only Harley or Sena headset or will it work with others like Scala?

Offline Rockout Rocker Products

  • Premium Vendor
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2099
  • Country: us
  • www.rockout.biz
    • www.rockout.biz
Re: New MOCO Bluetooth system
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2017, 05:26:44 AM »
I found a work around from a gent on another forum, uses a Sena 20s and BT10. Cheaper, does what I want & needs no flash. I'll post more when I get it done.
www.rockout.biz Stop the top end TAPPING!!

Offline FurryOne

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 233
  • Country: us
Re: New MOCO Bluetooth system
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2017, 06:05:08 AM »
I found a work around from a gent on another forum, uses a Sena 20s and BT10. Cheaper, does what I want & needs no flash. I'll post more when I get it done.

If the BT10 works with a typical 4-connection phone headset (w/mic) then it should connect through the 280A interface or even the 7-pin H-D headset connector since they are only audio in/out.  The only problem might be impedance mismatching.

Offline UltraNutZ

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 3658
  • Country: us
  • 2012 FLHTK VTPBB
Re: New MOCO Bluetooth system
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2017, 08:33:38 AM »
Anyone know if the new blue tooth can use only Harley or Sena headset or will it work with others like Scala?

Check out Sena Freewire
Politicians are like diapers.
They need to be changed for the same reasons

Offline FurryOne

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 233
  • Country: us
Re: New MOCO Bluetooth system
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2017, 07:49:38 PM »
I found a work around from a gent on another forum, uses a Sena 20s and BT10. Cheaper, does what I want & needs no flash. I'll post more when I get it done.

Any update on that?  I've got the adapter cable on BO, but I'm absorbed with CB antenna quality at the moment, and it looks like the Season will be in full wind-down before the adapter cable is shipping.

Offline Rockout Rocker Products

  • Premium Vendor
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2099
  • Country: us
  • www.rockout.biz
    • www.rockout.biz
Re: New MOCO Bluetooth system
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2017, 07:58:18 PM »
I'm hoping to get to it this weekend, I have all the stuff.

 Note though.... the setup is only one way. It gives you full voice control of everything, but sound only comes from the bike's speakers. That's how I would want it anyway.

Basically, the 20S headset talks to the BT-10 Bluetooth mic. The BT-10 has an output jack for the sound. You connect the + and - of that cable to the mic + and mic- on the mentioned 280 plug on the harness in the fairing. There are a couple settings to go through but that's the basics. It can probably be bidirectional with a couple more wires.
www.rockout.biz Stop the top end TAPPING!!

Offline FurryOne

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 233
  • Country: us
Re: New MOCO Bluetooth system
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2017, 05:23:55 PM »
Basically, the 20S headset talks to the BT-10 Bluetooth mic. The BT-10 has an output jack for the sound.

I've decided to wait until the "rush" for the H-D system is over, then buy it along with a pair of the H-D 20S EVO headsets  - I have a 1/2 & 3/4 helmets and switch between them.  Still no word when H-D will have the adapter for those with CBs available for shipping.  I guess that's no great loss since the H-D CB is pretty worthless.

Offline Rockout Rocker Products

  • Premium Vendor
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2099
  • Country: us
  • www.rockout.biz
    • www.rockout.biz
Re: New MOCO Bluetooth system
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2017, 06:11:24 PM »
If it wasn't for my concern about losing my Boom flash I'd just go the HD route too. JM audio is hinting on HDF that their flash is the same as mine, but no real commitment. If I could go that route I would also.
www.rockout.biz Stop the top end TAPPING!!

Offline Rockout Rocker Products

  • Premium Vendor
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2099
  • Country: us
  • www.rockout.biz
    • www.rockout.biz
Re: New MOCO Bluetooth system
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2017, 07:20:44 PM »
Man, talk about confusing. Some people say that getting the flash for the WHIM (Bluetooth module) will overwrite the speaker/amp settings, that JM guy on HDF swears it won't. An actual user there swears it did. On & on.

 Can anyone here that works at a dealer confirm....... when you flash the Boom head unit for the WHIM, does it overwrite your speaker/amp settings also?

 Thanks
www.rockout.biz Stop the top end TAPPING!!

Offline FurryOne

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 233
  • Country: us
Re: New MOCO Bluetooth system
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2017, 12:17:14 PM »
Oh brother!  Now Sena has announced their 30K system.  I wonder if this means H-D will be upgrading theirs to the 30K soon. 

Offline Rockout Rocker Products

  • Premium Vendor
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2099
  • Country: us
  • www.rockout.biz
    • www.rockout.biz
Re: New MOCO Bluetooth system
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2017, 08:29:48 PM »
Well, I bailed on the BT10 setup. Turns out the WHIM installation doesn't mess with existing amp/speakers setups. It's just enabling something in another menu. Haven't had time to play with anything but so far mostly as planned. One issue... the WHIM module wants to mount where my BT 4180 amp is... not gonna happen. 3M heavy duty Velcro to the rescue...

[ Guests cannot view attachments ]
www.rockout.biz Stop the top end TAPPING!!

Offline FurryOne

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 233
  • Country: us
Re: New MOCO Bluetooth system
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2017, 05:47:14 PM »
Well, I bailed on the BT10 setup. Turns out the WHIM installation doesn't mess with existing amp/speakers setups. It's just enabling something in another menu. Haven't had time to play with anything but so far mostly as planned. One issue... the WHIM module wants to mount where my BT 4180 amp is... not gonna happen. 3M heavy duty Velcro to the rescue...

Is the WHIM in a plastic or metal case?  H-D still is having problems shipping the adapter harness needed if you have a CB.

Offline Rockout Rocker Products

  • Premium Vendor
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2099
  • Country: us
  • www.rockout.biz
    • www.rockout.biz
Re: New MOCO Bluetooth system
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2017, 06:07:27 PM »
Well, I bailed on the BT10 setup. Turns out the WHIM installation doesn't mess with existing amp/speakers setups. It's just enabling something in another menu. Haven't had time to play with anything but so far mostly as planned. One issue... the WHIM module wants to mount where my BT 4180 amp is... not gonna happen. 3M heavy duty Velcro to the rescue...

Is the WHIM in a plastic or metal case?  H-D still is having problems shipping the adapter harness needed if you have a CB.

 Plastic case.

 The extra harness was in stock at Boardtracker when I ordered the WHIM.

 They REALLY ought to offer two versions of the WHIM, rather than making CB owners pay extra, then throw away the expensive harness that comes standard.

 Not the MOCO way.... they'll call CB WHIM installation "Stage IV"   :hyst:
www.rockout.biz Stop the top end TAPPING!!

Offline FurryOne

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 233
  • Country: us
Re: New MOCO Bluetooth system
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2017, 06:19:18 PM »

 Plastic case.

 The extra harness was in stock at Boardtracker when I ordered the WHIM.

I got a notice on the 9th that mine was "packed " by H-D to ship to Surdyke.   Yeaaaah, Sure!

Quote
They REALLY ought to offer two versions of the WHIM, rather than making CB owners pay extra, then throw away the expensive harness that comes standard.

You need to do something about that "logical" thinking.   :slap:

Quote
Not the MOCO way.... they'll call CB WHIM installation "Stage IV"   :hyst:

I think they ought to call the plastic case version the "WHIMp"   :potstir:

Offline FurryOne

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 233
  • Country: us
Re: New MOCO Bluetooth system
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2017, 03:17:35 PM »
I finally got my extra cost CB/WHIM/Boom interface cable.  I've been following discussions about the Sena 30K w/mesh and the Cardo PackTalk w/mesh on the sport bike forums.  So far, it doesn't look great for the Sena 30K - it looks like the public is beta testing their product, possibly due to rushing it out because Cardo already hit the streets with their PacTalk product.  The Cardo PackTalk seems to work much better right now.  Your best bet right now if you ride a Harley and want to communicate with 2 or less other riders and control your Boom 6.5GT system is the H-D branded 20S headset (& the H-D WHIM bluetooth module)  I have no idea if the Sena 30K will interface with the H-D WHIM at this time, but it's a good bet that the PackTalk doesn't.  If you don't want to interface with your H-D Boom system, then the Cardo PackTalk is the best communications headset at this time - it will connect to up to 15 riders over it's mesh network, and it can even add riders with Sena BT systems (20S) into it's mesh.

Offline Rockout Rocker Products

  • Premium Vendor
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2099
  • Country: us
  • www.rockout.biz
    • www.rockout.biz
Re: New MOCO Bluetooth system
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2017, 06:34:54 PM »
If I'm not mistaken the HD Sena unit will talk to 8 other bikes.

 It's also the only one that will receive stereo sound from the 6.5... all others are in mono.

www.rockout.biz Stop the top end TAPPING!!

Offline FurryOne

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 233
  • Country: us
Re: New MOCO Bluetooth system
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2017, 05:52:55 PM »
If I'm not mistaken the HD Sena unit will talk to 8 other bikes.

While H-D indicates that "up to" 8 riders can communicate with the 20S, real world experience is that after 3 riders the chances of maintaining the daisy-chain drops off Niagara Falls.  Now the "EVO" version may have improved this situation, but those reporting their experiences haven't differentiated between the 20S and the 20S EVO.

Quote
It's also the only one that will receive stereo sound from the 6.5... all others are in mono.

True - only in that we haven't heard of anyone trying the Sena 30K or Cardo PackTalk with the WHIM. (yet)

Offline FurryOne

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 233
  • Country: us
Re: New MOCO Bluetooth system
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2017, 09:08:15 AM »
While we're waiting for new developments in the wireless communications game, I worked on 2 flowcharts to help navigate the waters - the first is for those who have the Boom Infotainment System, and the second is for those who just want to talk to other riders.  Hope these help.  I'll post changes as I run across them.  I limited it to only H-D, SENA, & CARDO.

Offline Rockout Rocker Products

  • Premium Vendor
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2099
  • Country: us
  • www.rockout.biz
    • www.rockout.biz
Re: New MOCO Bluetooth system
« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2017, 08:15:23 AM »
Nice work!

I did find this about my 20-S Evo...

20S

Can be paired with up to 8 other headsets.

Can connect with up to 7 other headsets for talking over the intercom.

 

*Note:

All Sena headsets can be paired together for talking over the intercom but the number of headsets that can talk to each other at the same time depends on the maximum number that each headset allows and must match the lowest maximum. For instance, the 20S can connect to 7 other 20S headsets for a maximum number of 8 connected headsets. But, if the 20S is paired to a 10S then the maximum number of connected headsets changes because the 10S can only support a maximum of 4 connected headsets.
www.rockout.biz Stop the top end TAPPING!!

Offline FurryOne

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 233
  • Country: us
Re: New MOCO Bluetooth system
« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2017, 06:47:34 PM »
Nice work!

Thanks!  I've tried to clean it up more in the attached revision.

Quote
I did find this about my 20-S Evo...

Can be paired with up to 8 other headsets.
Can connect with up to 7 other headsets for talking over the intercom.

While I realize that the 20S/20S EVO states "up to 8...", what I'm reading of people's experiences is that once
they go over 3 pairings the links become very fragile, so I limited it to 3 for best experience.

I'm finally starting to read people's experiences with the 30K and PackTalk - both good and bad.  I hope to put out a
summary of what I've found in a month or so, but for now it's wait & listen(read).

I'll be ordering the WHIM probably in January, and after the Holidays I'll be contacting Sena to find out if they're going to update the 30K to work in stereo with the WHIM, or produce an H-D 30K, or what.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2017, 06:52:32 PM by FurryOne »

Offline FurryOne

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 233
  • Country: us
Re: New MOCO Bluetooth system
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2018, 07:58:31 AM »
Not much happening on the headset front, so I'd explain why the H-D version of the 20S EVO headset is better than the Sena 20S EVO.  As mentioned before, you can use the Sena on the H-D WHIM, but you'll get monaural audio, not stereo.  Sena makes both headsets, and they make both the Sena Freewire and H-D WHIM, but the big difference is in the Bluetooth Audio Codec.  Sena still uses the SBC (Sub-Band Coding) codec in their headsets and the Freewire, while H-D spec'd out the newer aptX codec in their Headsets and the WHIM. While the aptX codec will talk to SBC equipped stuff, it falls back to mono.  I'm not sure why this is so but it probably has to do with compression methods.  Why doesn't Sena use aptX?  I'd guess that they just didn't think the difference in audio quality would be noticeable at 70mph.  When I talked to Sena support they mentioned that they'd received lots of requests for stereo pairing with H-D's WHIM.  Whether they upgrade their sets or not depends on breaking compatibility with their other models, including their Freewire.  Also, they may have a contractual non-compete agreement with H-D for a specified timeframe.

Anyways, I've revised my flowchart to show the codecs, and if you like to read about the differences between SBC and aptX, read it here:  https://www.lifewire.com/aptx-bluetooth-codec-4151667

Offline FurryOne

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 233
  • Country: us
Re: New MOCO Bluetooth system
« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2018, 08:53:09 AM »
Here's an update on the wireless headset situation.

One guy on YouTube posted a short video showing that a Cardo PacTalk will pair with the Boom! System, but that's all he showed - now comment on audio, and no comment on voice controls, though I did comment that if it pairs it should work fine with the voice commands.

I installed my WHIM, got Wireless Headset support turned on at my local Dealer (1/2 hour charge) and paired my Sena 30K  just fine.  Of course, as preciously noted, no stereo via the Boom! but the 30K has built-in FM stereo radio.  Voice commands to the Boom worked fine.  One setup note - before you try pairing, turn off your phone's bluetooth if you've already paired it with your Boom, then pair your Boom & Headset.  Once that's done you can reenable the phone's bluetooth and be able to do phone calls through the headset->Boom->phone.

Weird thing - I bought the 30K pair because I have 2 helmets.  I was hoping to pair my main helmet to the rider position and the 2nd to the passenger position, then use either one when riding since both rider & passenger bluetooth positions are enabled in the Boom system - nope!... the passenger headset can't issue voice commands through the Boom System. So in order to use the other helmet I'll have to erase the 1st rider pairing and pair the 2nd helmet in it's place, and vice versa to reuse the 1st helmet. Ugh!  I guess even Harley doesn't like backseat drivers!