Author Topic: Harley: 2014 Ultra - rough idle  (Read 311 times)

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Offline Sunny Jim

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2014 Ultra - rough idle
« on: November 03, 2017, 06:35:44 AM »
A 2014 Ltra arrived with a rough idle complaint.
We serviced the bike at 12000 touring miles.
The bike has an orange SERT.
We have carried out a compression test - 205 CCP front and rear.
Checked fir manifold leaks - none found. Plugs changed and fresh fuel( 98) added. Injectors removed and cleaned.
Air cleaner removed.
Cal checked - locked.
SE stage 1 map flashed and codes checked. New map made no difference.
Live data recorded. Auto tune applied. Still no change.
Timing on both cylinders fluctuating at idle(1020rpm) from 14 degrees to 23 degrees.
Map sensor voltage varying from 1.1v - 3.8v . I set all the timing on both cylinders from 750rpm to 1250rpm / 0 - 50kpa , to 20 degrees.
Disconnected Map sensor and the bike began to run much better. Reconnected map sensor and rough idle is back. Timing and map fluctuating Again.
Does anyone have an educated or reasonable point of view on this problem ?

Online rbabos

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Re: 2014 Ultra - rough idle
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2017, 07:31:02 AM »
A 2014 Ltra arrived with a rough idle complaint.
We serviced the bike at 12000 touring miles.
The bike has an orange SERT.
We have carried out a compression test - 205 CCP front and rear.
Checked fir manifold leaks - none found. Plugs changed and fresh fuel( 98) added. Injectors removed and cleaned.
Air cleaner removed.
Cal checked - locked.
SE stage 1 map flashed and codes checked. New map made no difference.
Live data recorded. Auto tune applied. Still no change.
Timing on both cylinders fluctuating at idle(1020rpm) from 14 degrees to 23 degrees.
Map sensor voltage varying from 1.1v - 3.8v . I set all the timing on both cylinders from 750rpm to 1250rpm / 0 - 50kpa , to 20 degrees.
Disconnected Map sensor and the bike began to run much better. Reconnected map sensor and rough idle is back. Timing and map fluctuating Again.
Does anyone have an educated or reasonable point of view on this problem ?
That seems extreme for idle fluctuation since max would be 5 volts. Being Map sensors are cheap, I'd slap a new one in.
Ron

Offline N-gin

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Re: 2014 Ultra - rough idle
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2017, 07:39:00 AM »
I would go for the map sensor. If you had to through something at it..maybe get one from another bike to check it out..
Or you could use a dvom and check the map to see if it is working properly. If you have access to the info and tools
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Offline Coyote

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Re: 2014 Ultra - rough idle
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2017, 08:17:03 AM »
A 2014 Ltra arrived with a rough idle complaint.
We serviced the bike at 12000 touring miles.
The bike has an orange SERT.
We have carried out a compression test - 205 CCP front and rear.
Checked fir manifold leaks - none found. Plugs changed and fresh fuel( 98) added. Injectors removed and cleaned.
Air cleaner removed.
Cal checked - locked.
SE stage 1 map flashed and codes checked. New map made no difference.
Live data recorded. Auto tune applied. Still no change.
Timing on both cylinders fluctuating at idle(1020rpm) from 14 degrees to 23 degrees.
Map sensor voltage varying from 1.1v - 3.8v . I set all the timing on both cylinders from 750rpm to 1250rpm / 0 - 50kpa , to 20 degrees.
Disconnected Map sensor and the bike began to run much better. Reconnected map sensor and rough idle is back. Timing and map fluctuating Again.
Does anyone have an educated or reasonable point of view on this problem ?
That seems extreme for idle fluctuation since max would be 5 volts. Being Map sensors are cheap, I'd slap a new one in.
Ron

 :agree:   Way to much movement at idle
I feel the need... for twisties with speed.

Offline Gordon61

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Re: 2014 Ultra - rough idle
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2017, 09:17:02 AM »
I spent waaaay more time than was healthy trying to sort my idle ...when apparently there was nothing wrong with it.

MAP sensor - yea, I looked at that a lot.  Mine varied almost exactly like I think you are worried about, but mine was between 1.6 and 4.7 volts

Given that the MAP sensor voltage is not necessarily the voltage "at the time the ECU takes a reading for that cycle" I came to the conclusion that on the law of averages what I was actually looking at was noise ...but the lowest reading equated to the MAP at idle (i.e. about the 35 kpa mark)

I'll dig a picture of it out later...

Having said that, 1.1 volts might be a bit on the low side, what do your logs say the average MAP at idle is

Offline Coyote

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Re: 2014 Ultra - rough idle
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2017, 09:31:06 AM »
I assumed the reported MAP sensor voltage was taken at the same time the MAP reading was taken but Gordon is correct.  Here is a short log of my 113 idling after warm up. You can see the MAP reading is pretty stable but the voltage moves quiet a bit.

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I feel the need... for twisties with speed.

Offline Gordon61

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Re: 2014 Ultra - rough idle
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2017, 12:58:08 PM »
yep, that's it

Here is another pic that maybe emphasises a bit more...

Graph 2, the Red is all of the MAP Voltage noise, sampled at whenever including when the intake valve is open I'm guessing.

Look at the While line kind of underneath it all - that is the MAP value, who knows when that is sampled but it certainly looks more meaningful than the voltage signal anyway.

Offline Sunny Jim

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Re: 2014 Ultra - rough idle
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2017, 03:36:14 PM »
Thanks for your input.
The only logging I have is what I picked up via the VCR.
From my understanding, the map sensor may well be faulty. Given that we have probably turned every stone on this, I don't understand what else it could be.
We have now Tried several SE maps to no avail.
the butterfly on the TB pulses noticeably, but when I apply some pressure to it when idling, it makes no difference.
These constant corrections from the map sensor are not adjustable in the SERT, as I understand it.

Offline Gordon61

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Re: 2014 Ultra - rough idle
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2017, 05:39:24 PM »
Timing fluctuates because that is how the later maps try to control the idle speed, so maybe a bit of a red herring there.

MAP voltage may also be a bit misleading, how stable is the MAP value itself?  Disconnecting the MAP sensor and the ECU fails over to a hidden Default MAP table ...which might run smoother because the MAP value is more constant so it could be a duff sensor, or...

just thinking aloud, and the experts will have a better idea, but...
There isn't a cam in there is there because bad IVO/IVC settings wouldn't help it run nicely ...is a CCP of 205 not a bit high for a stage 1??

Offline Sunny Jim

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Re: 2014 Ultra - rough idle
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2017, 08:12:39 AM »
Gordon, it is supposedly a twin cooled ultra wit A/C and slip ons. .
The CCP is measured with a certified glycerine filled 4" gauge. It's within 0.1%.
I thought a cam change may have happened. I might check for adj pushrods and measure the lift. Incidentally , I did find a mass of fault codes In the fault code history. I should have photographed it . My memory is not as sharp as it used o be.
I will connect my PV to it tomorrow and down load done data to ML viewer.