Author Topic: Porting stock M8 heads v. SE CNC  (Read 9407 times)

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Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Porting stock M8 heads v. SE CNC
« Reply #100 on: March 10, 2018, 04:08:11 PM »
Another cam for the sheet.
Keep in mind the number of variables that exist, different people tuning, different air cleaners, and different exhaust (the biggest player particularly where in the rpm the peaks are) yet we still have numbers this close.

107-6
http://harleytechtalk.com/index.php?topic=102329.msg1210241#msg1210241

107-7
http://harleytechtalk.com/index.php?topic=95948.msg1216003#msg1216003



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Offline SoZo

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Re: Porting stock M8 heads v. SE CNC
« Reply #101 on: March 16, 2018, 01:53:00 PM »
Well John I am sure that combo will be a performer and it maybe that Rick has figured the engines out ( he is more than capable) but at this point your post is conjecture. Once you have the graphs and maybe some time slips it will then become fact. I also notice you have grown the engine to 120.9 CI to better the match the size of the ports and valves of the stock heads.
 
Great looking combo I for one hope it is the key unlocking true power gains from the 4 valve heads on a Harley.


Thanks.... yea notice I didnít post a number we will have to wait and see but not totally conjecture. I have seen a setup with very similar but not as much head or intake work produce 147 torque and 144 hp 120 torque @ 2250 rpm

Looking forward to seeing your graph, most Indy built 2 valve Ward head HD engines I have seen are making 1.17-1.25 hp/ci. That makes the hp target for your 120.9 CI M8 engine 141.45- 151.12 hp to be in the 2 valve head range.

We have had big bore 2 valve engines in the dyno section here in that range with heads from Baisley, Don's, Vance, R&R, WFO, Williams, and Ward just to name a few. Some people get these high end street engines confused with Dyno shoot out engines but they could not be farther from the truth. 2 valve head Dyno shootout engines have been in the 1.4-1.7 hp/ci range for over 10 years.

Yup will have to wait and see.... went to almost all the aforementioned head guys I do think they are good too but Rick is maybe a bit more organized currently and completely flowed everything and I feel confident with the math. Again we will see !

1 hour VE table work, no effective tune and a 4th gear run so lots more HP left.




Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Porting stock M8 heads v. SE CNC
« Reply #102 on: March 16, 2018, 02:08:41 PM »
Well John I am sure that combo will be a performer and it maybe that Rick has figured the engines out ( he is more than capable) but at this point your post is conjecture. Once you have the graphs and maybe some time slips it will then become fact. I also notice you have grown the engine to 120.9 CI to better the match the size of the ports and valves of the stock heads.
 
Great looking combo I for one hope it is the key unlocking true power gains from the 4 valve heads on a Harley.


Thanks.... yea notice I didnít post a number we will have to wait and see but not totally conjecture. I have seen a setup with very similar but not as much head or intake work produce 147 torque and 144 hp 120 torque @ 2250 rpm

Looking forward to seeing your graph, most Indy built 2 valve Ward head HD engines I have seen are making 1.17-1.25 hp/ci. That makes the hp target for your 120.9 CI M8 engine 141.45- 151.12 hp to be in the 2 valve head range.

We have had big bore 2 valve engines in the dyno section here in that range with heads from Baisley, Don's, Vance, R&R, WFO, Williams, and Ward just to name a few. Some people get these high end street engines confused with Dyno shoot out engines but they could not be farther from the truth. 2 valve head Dyno shootout engines have been in the 1.4-1.7 hp/ci range for over 10 years.

Yup will have to wait and see.... went to almost all the aforementioned head guys I do think they are good too but Rick is maybe a bit more organized currently and completely flowed everything and I feel confident with the math. Again we will see !

1 hour VE table work, no effective tune and a 4th gear run so lots more HP left.

Thank you for posting this.
Great progress, looks like we starting to see the HP/CI numbers we expect from performance Harleys. I am lazy so if you would get us a SAE graph when you finish the tune so it will be easily compared to all the other data I save. As i said, there was no doubt this would be representative of a top notch effort of what these M-8 are capable of at this point.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 02:12:47 PM by 1FSTRK »
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Offline SoZo

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Re: Porting stock M8 heads v. SE CNC
« Reply #103 on: March 16, 2018, 02:19:41 PM »
will do as soon as it's done, just wanted a base tune... riding right now for bike week  LOL

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Porting stock M8 heads v. SE CNC
« Reply #104 on: March 16, 2018, 02:32:21 PM »
will do as soon as it's done, just wanted a base tune... riding right now for bike week  LOL

 :up: :up:
Just saw the date on the dyno sheet, thanks for getting that to us so quick.If your dyno guy will do it give us one 6th gear run in SAE please.
It must feel like it pulls forever, it is definitely cammed and ported for the right side of the graph. If the balance shaft and crank will take it that graph shows a shift point of about 6800-7400 rpm would work nicely.
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Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Porting stock M8 heads v. SE CNC
« Reply #105 on: March 21, 2018, 05:44:06 AM »
Here is more "different dyno" information. A quick look at the graphs in the links will show a big range in hp on these stage one bikes. Here on the internet this is often called "happy dyno" but if we look beyond the peak hp or tq number we can see the graphs give much more information.  These being stage one bikes they are mass produce engines so they will vary a little but before we blame the dyno let us look at the differences in exhaust systems and air cleaners. We know exhaust systems have big effects on the tq curve and if we take the entire graph into account we see the that rather than a dyno difference we may just have some combinations that favor one side of the graph more than the other.

107-10
http://harleytechtalk.com/index.php?topic=93982.msg1086370#msg1086370

107-11
http://harleytechtalk.com/index.php?topic=101452.msg1192162#msg1192162

107-12
http://harleytechtalk.com/index.php?topic=95948.msg1124917#msg1124917

107-13
http://harleytechtalk.com/index.php?topic=100984.msg1185116#msg1185116



Here is how they look on the sheet.
The last column is the average of the 4 power readings, both tq and hp in the range we are targeting.




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Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Porting stock M8 heads v. SE CNC
« Reply #106 on: April 01, 2018, 06:04:34 AM »
Thanks to new member $tonecold we have some more data on the dyno compare sheet.
Here we see that the exhaust used played a far bigger roll than the dyno used. Once again I will also bring up the different people tuning, different bike, and different tuner brand. With all that taken into account we still find another quality dyno facility giving more quality comparable numbers.

You can once again see that the combination of parts is key, some think there are no perfect storms but I think if you look at enough data we can agree it is all about the proper combination of parts. We may want to start picking the cams and exhaust together when going for a particular tq curve.

The $tonecold test info was taken from the individual run graphs posted on the internet. The mass overlay  is in a vendor section here on HTT for reference.

the links to the Sheffer Performance and FM tests are here

107-8
http://harleytechtalk.com/index.php?topic=102329.msg1210241#msg1210241

107-9
http://harleytechtalk.com/index.php?topic=95948.msg1216062#msg1216062


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Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Porting stock M8 heads v. SE CNC
« Reply #107 on: April 02, 2018, 01:43:55 PM »
will do as soon as it's done, just wanted a base tune... riding right now for bike week  LOL


Any news?

We have a comparable 117ci Ward head build posted now in the dyno section.
http://harleytechtalk.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=103431.0;attach=86621;image
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Offline SoZo

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Re: Porting stock M8 heads v. SE CNC
« Reply #108 on: April 05, 2018, 06:15:10 PM »
redoing some things....

Offline Nastytls

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Re: Porting stock M8 heads v. SE CNC
« Reply #109 on: April 05, 2018, 06:42:54 PM »
Looks like some serious scuffing on that cylinder in addition to the crack.

Offline BVHOG

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Re: Porting stock M8 heads v. SE CNC
« Reply #110 on: April 05, 2018, 06:52:18 PM »
redoing some things....
That sucks!!, what is the entire story on that cylinder, bore, stroke, piston etc.
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Offline mike jesse

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Re: Porting stock M8 heads v. SE CNC
« Reply #111 on: April 05, 2018, 07:33:07 PM »
Why the huge sharp chamfer?

Is it a stock liner?

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Porting stock M8 heads v. SE CNC
« Reply #112 on: April 05, 2018, 08:12:24 PM »


I have Ricks complete engineering and machine work here almost ready to go. He has completely flow benched, engineered and machined my M8 setup from air filter to cylinders and rings, did all the boring and honing and finally exhaust specs. I'm a few weeks (waiting on custom Burns Stainless Exhaust) and you will all be saying how great the M8 is, or more accurately how great Rick is.... 

My build is:
SE cylinders board and honed torque plates 120.9ci
CP Pistons and rings end gap set by Ward
Feuling/ARP cylinder studs
Feuling/ARP stainless head bolts
Feuling/ARP rocker studs
Woods 9960 .600 lift cam
Woods Lifters
Woods valve springs titanium keepers.
Aim-Tamachi clutch pressure plate
HD SE clutch plates
7.08 grm/sec injectors

Rick Ward CNC heads with oversized valves Flowing
390cfm intake
266cfm exhaust
Rick Ward CNC SE 64mm intake flowing 350cfm front and rear cylinder.
TMan loss air cleaner (Velocity Stack reworked by Rick)
Feuling Oil Pump on order
Burns NHB Exhaust on order

John
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Online sfmichael

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Re: Porting stock M8 heads v. SE CNC
« Reply #113 on: April 06, 2018, 07:14:57 AM »
 :cry: :banghead:
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Offline Nastytls

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Re: Porting stock M8 heads v. SE CNC
« Reply #114 on: April 06, 2018, 11:54:34 AM »
I thought that I read somewhere that boring the SE cylinders still left more meat than a 107Ē TC had. Is that true? If so, than how did such a catastrophic failure happen?

Offline VDeuce

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Re: Porting stock M8 heads v. SE CNC
« Reply #115 on: April 06, 2018, 12:07:58 PM »
Would like to see pics of the pistons. Wonder if they made contact with each other at bottom. Seen it happen before. Don't ask lol...

Offline SoZo

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Re: Porting stock M8 heads v. SE CNC
« Reply #116 on: April 06, 2018, 12:15:31 PM »
redoing some things....

To be perfectly clear I have NO idea why it happened......
I do not know the root cause, crank seized, oil sprayers, just crap in the engine the stock lifters were wearing bad and defacing the stock cam. I do not know what caused this. It may of just been crap material on the SE cylinders. They had plenty of cylinder wall thickness so I just cant and wont speculate. I will be doing a complete evaluation and hope, I said i really hope to find the problem before I rebuild. I hope my pocket saves yours.


Offline VDeuce

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Re: Porting stock M8 heads v. SE CNC
« Reply #117 on: April 06, 2018, 02:06:52 PM »
redoing some things....

To be perfectly clear I have NO idea why it happened......
I do not know the root cause, crank seized, oil sprayers, just crap in the engine the stock lifters were wearing bad and defacing the stock cam. I do not know what caused this. It may of just been crap material on the SE cylinders. They had plenty of cylinder wall thickness so I just cant and wont speculate. I will be doing a complete evaluation and hope, I said i really hope to find the problem before I rebuild. I hope my pocket saves yours.
Feel for you man.

I would examine the piston skirts for any indication they touched at the bottom of their stroke - there would be witness marks. I had this happen on a 124" build with CP pistons that were provided to me with no warning or instructions to check. Not saying it happened in your case, just that the crack in my case likely was caused by it.

Offline BVHOG

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Re: Porting stock M8 heads v. SE CNC
« Reply #118 on: April 06, 2018, 08:48:40 PM »
redoing some things....

To be perfectly clear I have NO idea why it happened......
I do not know the root cause, crank seized, oil sprayers, just crap in the engine the stock lifters were wearing bad and defacing the stock cam. I do not know what caused this. It may of just been crap material on the SE cylinders. They had plenty of cylinder wall thickness so I just cant and wont speculate. I will be doing a complete evaluation and hope, I said i really hope to find the problem before I rebuild. I hope my pocket saves yours.

In all likelyhood the crack started at the taper, no big surprise there. Finding out if it was the chicken or the egg first will likely be impossible. The best of luck to you on the rebuild. I can only imagine the $ you have already spent and the disappointment.
If you don't have a sense of humor you probably have no sense at all.

Offline BVHOG

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Re: Porting stock M8 heads v. SE CNC
« Reply #119 on: April 08, 2018, 11:13:35 AM »
I pulled a new set of cylinders out of the box today to check out this taper at the bottom, it's pretty clear to me now what the problem is. After boring the cylinders it makes the taper, which originally has a flat end on it into a knife edge and a stress riser. I believe this could be cured by cutting that flat back into the bottom.
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Offline jimlibo

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Re: Porting stock M8 heads v. SE CNC
« Reply #120 on: April 08, 2018, 01:15:26 PM »
"I pulled a new set of cylinders out of the box today to check out this taper at the bottom, it's pretty clear to me now what the problem is. After boring the cylinders it makes the taper, which originally has a flat end on it into a knife edge and a stress riser. I believe this could be cured by cutting that flat back into the bottom."

 :up:

Offline mike jesse

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Re: Porting stock M8 heads v. SE CNC
« Reply #121 on: April 08, 2018, 04:47:37 PM »
Yeah, I'd want that sharp edge gone if it were mine.

Online sfmichael

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Re: Porting stock M8 heads v. SE CNC
« Reply #122 on: April 08, 2018, 10:19:35 PM »
I pulled a new set of cylinders out of the box today to check out this taper at the bottom, it's pretty clear to me now what the problem is. After boring the cylinders it makes the taper, which originally has a flat end on it into a knife edge and a stress riser. I believe this could be cured by cutting that flat back into the bottom.

those were my thoughts...can't believe they let them go out like that
Colorado Springs, CO.

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Porting stock M8 heads v. SE CNC
« Reply #123 on: April 09, 2018, 03:38:40 AM »
I pulled a new set of cylinders out of the box today to check out this taper at the bottom, it's pretty clear to me now what the problem is. After boring the cylinders it makes the taper, which originally has a flat end on it into a knife edge and a stress riser. I believe this could be cured by cutting that flat back into the bottom.
:up:

Yeah, I'd want that sharp edge gone if it were mine.

When cutting a new flat on the bottom, how wide should it be?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2018, 03:42:56 AM by 1FSTRK »
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Offline Nastytls

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Re: Porting stock M8 heads v. SE CNC
« Reply #124 on: April 09, 2018, 06:02:03 AM »
Wonder how many of these 121Ē kits are out there with the knife edge cylinders cut...

SoZo, am I understanding your post correctly that your crank, lifters and cam got wiped out at the same time??