Author Topic: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do  (Read 3733 times)

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Offline Hossamania

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #100 on: February 17, 2018, 08:00:25 AM »
KD, I think we are all in agreement. The system is a compromise to begin with by favoring form over function, and then allowing the fail safe default to be fail but not safe.
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Offline Ohio HD

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #101 on: February 17, 2018, 08:06:25 AM »
I'm not supporting HD in their in my opinion poor ABS design. However I have three choices, get rid of the bike, convert to non-ABS, take on the task of bleeding the system myself with the proper tools. I'm currently doing choice number three. I don't agree with how the system works and potentially can fail. If that overwhelms me, then I need to execute choice one or choice two. But to believe that HD will in anyway be bringing all of these bikes in for some new system, forget it, not going to happen. So as I said, we have to make one of the three choices if this is a concern for us. 


I am somewhat with you Ohio. We all are stuck with this situation for now and have to make some choices. I would like to think for the short term. As I stated to another member, I have worked for decades for government in the motor vehicle safety division. One thing I learned is if you want action from a politician (the motor vehicle safety division folks are seen to be an arm of the politician), you have to have or threaten  :wink:  a public lobby that puts them in the hot seat. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. That is why I felt I should speak up in this thread. I hate to see acceptance of this problem and the blame for any death or injury being placed on the owner. Now I am going to back away before I say something that gets this thread some Shed time.  :smiled:

My whole point is, no it's not right, and I don't see any changes coming that will effect the existing bikes positively. It's not about acceptance, it's about what I perceive to be reality. Even if we pressure those that can make changes, you still need to make choice one through three if you're still riding the bike, and want to try to maintain safety.

Always remember, cooler heads prevail, thread lockers fail.    :smilep:

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Offline rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #102 on: February 17, 2018, 08:43:06 AM »
I'm not supporting HD in their in my opinion poor ABS design. However I have three choices, get rid of the bike, convert to non-ABS, take on the task of bleeding the system myself with the proper tools. I'm currently doing choice number three. I don't agree with how the system works and potentially can fail. If that overwhelms me, then I need to execute choice one or choice two. But to believe that HD will in anyway be bringing all of these bikes in for some new system, forget it, not going to happen. So as I said, we have to make one of the three choices if this is a concern for us. 


I am somewhat with you Ohio. We all are stuck with this situation for now and have to make some choices. I would like to think for the short term. As I stated to another member, I have worked for decades for government in the motor vehicle safety division. One thing I learned is if you want action from a politician (the motor vehicle safety division folks are seen to be an arm of the politician), you have to have or threaten  :wink:  a public lobby that puts them in the hot seat. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. That is why I felt I should speak up in this thread. I hate to see acceptance of this problem and the blame for any death or injury being placed on the owner. Now I am going to back away before I say something that gets this thread some Shed time.  :smiled:

My whole point is, no it's not right, and I don't see any changes coming that will effect the existing bikes positively. It's not about acceptance, it's about what I perceive to be reality. Even if we pressure those that can make changes, you still need to make choice one through three if you're still riding the bike, and want to try to maintain safety.

Always remember, cooler heads prevail, thread lockers fail.    :smilep:
Sadly, the reality is,  to maintain safety, or be fail safe it should be converted to non abs on those existing systems or replaced with units that do not deactivate normal braking effect in case of ABS failure. Not sure HD have those. Fluid flush and cycling does not alter the current design flaw of the system.  An ABS system should be an enhancement and not disable normal braking if it fails. One is life threatening and the other a nuisance. I will do 3 for now, although if I had half a brain, 2 would make the most sense. This was typed with a cool head. :wink:
Ron

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #103 on: February 17, 2018, 08:50:26 AM »
I'm not supporting HD in their in my opinion poor ABS design. However I have three choices, get rid of the bike, convert to non-ABS, take on the task of bleeding the system myself with the proper tools. I'm currently doing choice number three. I don't agree with how the system works and potentially can fail. If that overwhelms me, then I need to execute choice one or choice two. But to believe that HD will in anyway be bringing all of these bikes in for some new system, forget it, not going to happen. So as I said, we have to make one of the three choices if this is a concern for us. 


I am somewhat with you Ohio. We all are stuck with this situation for now and have to make some choices. I would like to think for the short term. As I stated to another member, I have worked for decades for government in the motor vehicle safety division. One thing I learned is if you want action from a politician (the motor vehicle safety division folks are seen to be an arm of the politician), you have to have or threaten  :wink:  a public lobby that puts them in the hot seat. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. That is why I felt I should speak up in this thread. I hate to see acceptance of this problem and the blame for any death or injury being placed on the owner. Now I am going to back away before I say something that gets this thread some Shed time.  :smiled:

My whole point is, no it's not right, and I don't see any changes coming that will effect the existing bikes positively. It's not about acceptance, it's about what I perceive to be reality. Even if we pressure those that can make changes, you still need to make choice one through three if you're still riding the bike, and want to try to maintain safety.

Always remember, cooler heads prevail, thread lockers fail.    :smilep:
Sadly, the reality is,  to maintain safety, or be fail safe it should be converted to non abs on those existing systems or replaced with units that do not deactivate normal braking effect in case of ABS failure. Not sure HD have those. Fluid flush and cycling does not alter the current design flaw of the system.  An ABS system should be an enhancement and not disable normal braking if it fails. One is life threatening and the other a nuisance. I will do 3 for now, although if I had half a brain, 2 would make the most sense. This was typed with a cool head. :wink:
Ron


 :SM:   There you go!  I'm as you know doing three as well. It's on my mind to do number two, we'll see.

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Offline rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #104 on: February 17, 2018, 08:57:38 AM »
I'm not supporting HD in their in my opinion poor ABS design. However I have three choices, get rid of the bike, convert to non-ABS, take on the task of bleeding the system myself with the proper tools. I'm currently doing choice number three. I don't agree with how the system works and potentially can fail. If that overwhelms me, then I need to execute choice one or choice two. But to believe that HD will in anyway be bringing all of these bikes in for some new system, forget it, not going to happen. So as I said, we have to make one of the three choices if this is a concern for us. 


I am somewhat with you Ohio. We all are stuck with this situation for now and have to make some choices. I would like to think for the short term. As I stated to another member, I have worked for decades for government in the motor vehicle safety division. One thing I learned is if you want action from a politician (the motor vehicle safety division folks are seen to be an arm of the politician), you have to have or threaten  :wink:  a public lobby that puts them in the hot seat. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. That is why I felt I should speak up in this thread. I hate to see acceptance of this problem and the blame for any death or injury being placed on the owner. Now I am going to back away before I say something that gets this thread some Shed time.  :smiled:

My whole point is, no it's not right, and I don't see any changes coming that will effect the existing bikes positively. It's not about acceptance, it's about what I perceive to be reality. Even if we pressure those that can make changes, you still need to make choice one through three if you're still riding the bike, and want to try to maintain safety.

Always remember, cooler heads prevail, thread lockers fail.    :smilep:
Sadly, the reality is,  to maintain safety, or be fail safe it should be converted to non abs on those existing systems or replaced with units that do not deactivate normal braking effect in case of ABS failure. Not sure HD have those. Fluid flush and cycling does not alter the current design flaw of the system.  An ABS system should be an enhancement and not disable normal braking if it fails. One is life threatening and the other a nuisance. I will do 3 for now, although if I had half a brain, 2 would make the most sense. This was typed with a cool head. :wink:
Ron


 :SM:   There you go!  I'm as you know doing three as well. It's on my mind to do number two, we'll see.
My luck, the damn HCU will lock up when I run the TS cycling program. Then it's #2 for me.
Ron

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #105 on: February 17, 2018, 09:35:01 AM »
Quote
My luck, the damn HCU will lock up when I run the TS cycling program. Then it's #2 for me.
Ron

Actually, that would be the best time for it to happen I think.

Some very good discussion in this thread. I agree it boils down to 3 choices in the end. Although there is somewhat of a 4th choice. A person could just pop for a new HCU and either do or have done the proper maintenance from then on. My problem with #3 is even with proper maintenance, I just don't think I can bring myself to completely trust that system. Especially since I know I have dropped the ball on regularly maintaining it and mine is coming up on 8 yrs. old. I wouldn't worry if it failed ABS only, but to fail the way it does is a big worry.

I think of all the bikes I've owned and miles I've ridden without ABS and it kinda makes choosing #2 easy for me.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 12:25:21 PM by FSG »
Greg

Offline Thermodyne

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #106 on: February 17, 2018, 10:19:36 AM »
I agree on the service intervals,  but the real problem is the abs not activating the pistons without having to go to the dealer for the dt to do it or you have to buy your own device.  It does not say in the book to exercise the abs just change fluid.  a definite design flaw.  I do flex mine but I have some buds that won't due to fear of falling and they have never had to use their abs

What book are you reading?  Step 11 from the manual as per bleeding the brakes:

Quote
If vehicle is ABS equiped, connect DIGITAL TECHNITION II (part # bla blah ) and follow the brake bleeding procedure.

It also lists the Digi Tech is a needed tool right at the beginning of the section, and has a bold warning paragraph to the effect that not using the proper procedure can result in maiming or death ect ect. 

The only thing not covered is the actual procedure with the digi tech.  But since you can't buy the Digi Tech, there reall isn't any need to tell you how to use it.
Not in my book. I've checked twice to see if they covered their ass.
Ron

Again, what book?
As spelled out in the new bike owners manual everyone gets,  for all service intervals. Regarding brake fluid as Brian pointed out, Note 4 says every 2 years. If Note 1 was also added that would be a different story regarding fluid service and possible cycling of the unit. I doubt even then it would have been cycled with DT, since the cause was unknown. Clearly states the owners manual the owner was never obligated to go to the dealer for this service. There was no number 1 in the brake fluid service interval.
Ron

OK that's part of your issue.  You are using an owners manual and expecting to find service procedure information.  The owners manual only lists the need to preform the service.  The owners manual does give instruction on some simple service items that an owner might choose to do at home, but it in no way passes as a service manual.  And it does not mention any sort of brake fluid flush procedure, only the need to have it done.  It's on the person doing the work to follow the proper procedures for any work performed.   Said brake flush being clearly described in the service manual.  If you took it to the dealer and they didn't preform the service, or preformed it improperly, that's one thing.  But not having it done do to not knowing the correct procedure is another.     

The need for the 2 year flush is listed on page 256 of my owners manual in the foot notes. 

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #107 on: February 17, 2018, 10:21:22 AM »

Some very good discussion in this thread. I agree it boils down to 3 choices in the end. Although there is somewhat of a 4th choice. A person could just pop for a new HCU and either do or have done the proper maintenance from then on. My problem with #3 is even with proper maintenance, I just don't think I can bring myself to completely trust that system. Especially since I know I have dropped the ball on regularly maintaining it and mine is coming up on 8 yrs. old. I wouldn't worry if it failed ABS only, but to fail the way it does is a big worry.

I think of all the bikes I've owned and miles I've ridden without ABS and it kinda makes choosing #2 easy for me.

Mine was 8 years old as well before it ever got it's first correct system bleed. And when you use the tool to cycle the ABS unit, you have your foot on the pedal, or hand pulling the front brake, and you feel that the system is getting worked over. Maybe all that is needed is to do this religiously, true it doesn't change the design flaw. But my plans going forward is to do this every spring, this is a situation where more is probably better.

But #2 is a very solid solution too.
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Offline kd

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #108 on: February 17, 2018, 10:30:46 AM »
Good ol #2. I would have thought preacher son's sensors would have picked that up and had him commenting on this #2 brake system.  :hyst: :hyst:
KD

Offline Thermodyne

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #109 on: February 17, 2018, 11:06:47 AM »
Here is how I see this whole thing up to this point.  There is an issue with the original unit and the valve sticking.  It is in no small part related to improper maintenance.  But could have probably been avoided with a better design.  The valve is actuated bay a magnet and returned by a spring, so it prolly doesn't take much to make it stick. 

This issues was probably addressed when Bosch started sourcing the units, since those units were not included in the service campaign.  And the older units are being addressed by providing an updated fluid and a flush service free of charge.  Some owners are not happy with this as a resolution.

First, let me say that I wish the MoCo would go so far on some of their other early failure issues. 

But in relation to the ABS unit, if your scooter is covered, then it's already 7 or more years old.   At 7 years would you be bitching if the master cylinder failed.  Or the caliper leaked.  If you have an ABS failure in your 7 year old car, it the factory going to eat it?  The only bitch I see here would be for the folks who let the dealer do all their service work and had to pay to have the ABS replaced.  They should be reimbursed.  And I'll bet that all it takes is receipts to get that check in the mail.   

So what's a person to do?  IMHO Go get your free service, then if you still can't sleep at night, replace the valve body with a Bosch unit.  As repairs go on Harleys, it's not that expensive.  And as failures go, it's actually rather rare.  Nothing close to compensators, wheel bearings or wet radios. 

 

Offline rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #110 on: February 17, 2018, 11:58:14 AM »
I agree on the service intervals,  but the real problem is the abs not activating the pistons without having to go to the dealer for the dt to do it or you have to buy your own device.  It does not say in the book to exercise the abs just change fluid.  a definite design flaw.  I do flex mine but I have some buds that won't due to fear of falling and they have never had to use their abs

What book are you reading?  Step 11 from the manual as per bleeding the brakes:

Quote
If vehicle is ABS equiped, connect DIGITAL TECHNITION II (part # bla blah ) and follow the brake bleeding procedure.

It also lists the Digi Tech is a needed tool right at the beginning of the section, and has a bold warning paragraph to the effect that not using the proper procedure can result in maiming or death ect ect. 

The only thing not covered is the actual procedure with the digi tech.  But since you can't buy the Digi Tech, there reall isn't any need to tell you how to use it.
Not in my book. I've checked twice to see if they covered their ass.
Ron

Again, what book?
As spelled out in the new bike owners manual everyone gets,  for all service intervals. Regarding brake fluid as Brian pointed out, Note 4 says every 2 years. If Note 1 was also added that would be a different story regarding fluid service and possible cycling of the unit. I doubt even then it would have been cycled with DT, since the cause was unknown. Clearly states the owners manual the owner was never obligated to go to the dealer for this service. There was no number 1 in the brake fluid service interval.
Ron

OK that's part of your issue.  You are using an owners manual and expecting to find service procedure information.  The owners manual only lists the need to preform the service.  The owners manual does give instruction on some simple service items that an owner might choose to do at home, but it in no way passes as a service manual.  And it does not mention any sort of brake fluid flush procedure, only the need to have it done.  It's on the person doing the work to follow the proper procedures for any work performed.   Said brake flush being clearly described in the service manual.  If you took it to the dealer and they didn't preform the service, or preformed it improperly, that's one thing.  But not having it done do to not knowing the correct procedure is another.     

The need for the 2 year flush is listed on page 256 of my owners manual in the foot notes.
Didn't know I had a problem. I have both owners and service manual as well as Twinscan 2 ABS. My point was the average owner doesn't buy a service manual and the owners manual makes no reference for the need to cycle the ABS. See HD dealer is pretty meaninless to most of us. :wink: Then again, the service manual warning only makes reference to using Digital Tech for brake bleeding if any component is loosened or replaced ,where air can be induced, which does require the cycling to bleed the system correctly. Fluid flush can be done without inducing air and the need to bleed. Let's face it, it could have been written better.
Ron

Offline Hossamania

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #111 on: February 17, 2018, 12:06:08 PM »
The real bitch for me is not the failure of the part, it's the no brake issue upon failure of the part.
If I pull the fuse on the abs in the car, I have no abs. If I pull the fuse on the bike, I have no abs. But this does not guarantee that the unit will not freeze up, causing a no brake issue. The car theoretically will not freeze up.
No shirt, no shoes, but I still get service.
Why? Girl, look at this body!

Offline rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #112 on: February 17, 2018, 12:23:23 PM »
The real bitch for me is not the failure of the part, it's the no brake issue upon failure of the part.
If I pull the fuse on the abs in the car, I have no abs. If I pull the fuse on the bike, I have no abs. But this does not guarantee that the unit will not freeze up, causing a no brake issue. The car theoretically will not freeze up.
I would suspect the failure happens during an ABS event and it plugs or sticks. Otherwise it just sits there looking dumb. Theoretically if fuse is pulled when all is well the HCU shouldn't go south. I wouldn't bet my life on that though.
Ron

Offline moose

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #113 on: February 17, 2018, 12:27:14 PM »
just a wild thought if we all complained to the NTSB about no brakes when the abs locks up   maybe just maybe they will come up with a position that HD must replace with one that will not fail.  like is said before my rear pedal gets hard once in a while than goes back to normal
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Offline rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #114 on: February 17, 2018, 12:32:35 PM »
just a wild thought if we all complained to the NTSB about no brakes when the abs locks up   maybe just maybe they will come up with a position that HD must replace with one that will not fail.  like is said before my rear pedal gets hard once in a while than goes back to normal
One thing I've noticed. HD owners don't want to rock the mother ship. Now if this was a Honda or Yamaha,  they would have burned the factory down by now. :hyst:
Ron

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #115 on: February 17, 2018, 01:15:44 PM »
The real bitch for me is not the failure of the part, it's the no brake issue upon failure of the part.
If I pull the fuse on the abs in the car, I have no abs. If I pull the fuse on the bike, I have no abs. But this does not guarantee that the unit will not freeze up, causing a no brake issue. The car theoretically will not freeze up.
I would suspect the failure happens during an ABS event and it plugs or sticks. Otherwise it just sits there looking dumb. Theoretically if fuse is pulled when all is well the HCU shouldn't go south. I wouldn't bet my life on that though.
Ron

I agree. From what I can determine from the plumbing schematics and the bleed/activation procedure, if it never activates it should never stick a valve and close out the normal brake loop. "Should" being the operative term here. Like you, I won't bet my life on it though.
Greg

Offline Thermodyne

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #116 on: February 17, 2018, 02:39:19 PM »
The real bitch for me is not the failure of the part, it's the no brake issue upon failure of the part.
If I pull the fuse on the abs in the car, I have no abs. If I pull the fuse on the bike, I have no abs. But this does not guarantee that the unit will not freeze up, causing a no brake issue. The car theoretically will not freeze up.


Actually, pulling the fuse would more or less guarantee that it would not fail.  The valve would never be actuated, so it would remain in the parked position, or in a non ABS event position.  It would also set a code. 

Contrary to what some are posting, the ABS unit does have an initialization process when the key is turned on, just like a car.  It is basically a communication test between the sensors, HCU and ECU.  And as soon as it sees a speed greater than 10 mph with no brake applied it runs a second cycle, part of which is energizing each of the valves. 

This is where I see the design defect.  There is no feedback as to the valve function.  Only that the solenoids energized.   The are no valve position sensors or pressure sensors in the system other than the stop lamp switches.  And it also does not require the brakes to be test applied.  Although proper riding procedure would dictate that you tried the brakes before starting the scooter.  I'm sure we all actually remember to do that every time we fire em up.  Or not.   Basically it tests the electrical part of the system, and assumes that the mechanical part functions properly.

There is a lot more to the system than that troublesome valve body. There is the control head, relays, diode packs, and lots of stuff that is going to start failing as these things age. 

There are 40 pages of diagnostics and explanations in the manual, should be mandatory reading if plan on doing your own ABS work.   
     

Offline Thermodyne

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #117 on: February 17, 2018, 02:43:22 PM »
The real bitch for me is not the failure of the part, it's the no brake issue upon failure of the part.
If I pull the fuse on the abs in the car, I have no abs. If I pull the fuse on the bike, I have no abs. But this does not guarantee that the unit will not freeze up, causing a no brake issue. The car theoretically will not freeze up.
I would suspect the failure happens during an ABS event and it plugs or sticks. Otherwise it just sits there looking dumb. Theoretically if fuse is pulled when all is well the HCU shouldn't go south. I wouldn't bet my life on that though.
Ron

Of the failures that I have read of, most were reported as occurring shortly after starting the scooter.   So they are probably related to the self test that occurs once you pull away.

Offline rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #118 on: February 17, 2018, 03:40:54 PM »
The real bitch for me is not the failure of the part, it's the no brake issue upon failure of the part.
If I pull the fuse on the abs in the car, I have no abs. If I pull the fuse on the bike, I have no abs. But this does not guarantee that the unit will not freeze up, causing a no brake issue. The car theoretically will not freeze up.
I would suspect the failure happens during an ABS event and it plugs or sticks. Otherwise it just sits there looking dumb. Theoretically if fuse is pulled when all is well the HCU shouldn't go south. I wouldn't bet my life on that though.
Ron

Of the failures that I have read of, most were reported as occurring shortly after starting the scooter.   So they are probably related to the self test that occurs once you pull away.
Are you saying there is a mini valve cycle during the self test where the valving could fail at that point? That should be the only way for that to happen. My impression was the self test just looks at electrical, sensors and such.
Codes also,  from what I know are strictly electrical and nothing to do with the actual HCU as it has no way to read it's function.
Ron

Offline 14GuineaPig

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #119 on: February 17, 2018, 04:55:17 PM »
This issues was probably addressed when Bosch started sourcing the units, since those units were not included in the service campaign.

When you talk about the Bosch unit, is that the unit used on the 2012 & 2013 models?  Was there a change between the 2011 & earlier units and the 2012 & 2013 units that is not reflected in the parts numbers?  It appears that the same unit was used from 2009 - 2013.  2008 used a different part number.  I know that the 2014 & up units are different but those models also have the "Linked" braking.

Offline FSG

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #120 on: February 17, 2018, 07:17:23 PM »
Well Campaign number 171 has finally been released in Oz

https://i.imgur.com/69rFudK.png

There are 3,692 VINs in that referred to xlsx   :emsad:

Offline REDDHOGG

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #121 on: February 17, 2018, 07:21:51 PM »
Not trying to hijack,,but is the abs all that beneficial on these bikes? ,I haven't ridden one

Offline REDDHOGG

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #122 on: February 17, 2018, 07:22:19 PM »
Sorry
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 07:26:47 PM by REDDHOGG »

Offline Hossamania

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #123 on: February 17, 2018, 07:49:50 PM »
Not trying to hijack,,but is the abs all that beneficial on these bikes? ,I haven't ridden one

The abs is pretty nice in most situations. I had to hammer the brakes last fall, and they worked just the way they were supposed to. I was able to hit them hard, no lockup, and actually steer under full brake.
No shirt, no shoes, but I still get service.
Why? Girl, look at this body!

Offline louloupa

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  • Country: fr
Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #124 on: February 18, 2018, 10:13:12 AM »


this is the normal brake circuit . The "apply valve" is off, so, the liquid can pass .

When you turn the  key ON , the " apply valve" moves .   If it gets stuck , the circuit is shut and there in no brake anymore .