Author Topic: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do  (Read 4301 times)

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Offline markymark

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #50 on: February 12, 2018, 06:01:39 AM »
Is HD going to reimburse owners who have paid for the HCU replacement ??

Offline rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #51 on: February 12, 2018, 08:20:48 AM »
Is HD going to reimburse owners who have paid for the HCU replacement ??
Now you are pushing your luck. :hyst: Not unless someone makes them.
Ron

Offline hattitude

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #52 on: February 12, 2018, 06:54:39 PM »
Quote
This whole fiasco is a remedy offered up by the MoCo, in response to the ABS complaints, and accepted by the NHTSA as an acceptable response.....

That may well be true, BUT shouldn't there be some onus on the owner of the vehicle in the first place to ensure that schedule service as specified in the Owner’s Manual and Service Manual be performed.


Absolutely.... I'm not trying to absolve consumers of our responsibilities. I was just trying to point out that this isn't a warranty issue, it's an NHTSA (safety)/MoCo issue, and as such, the MM Act has no application here....

I feel the big issue isn't about the ABS Unit failing, but how it disables the system when it fails.. That seems to me, to be a major design/engineering issue that should fall solely on the MoCo's shoulders...

If my ABS unit fails because I fail to do proper maintenance, that's on me to pay for a new unit... but if/when my ABS unit fails, it shouldn't make my brakes inoperable, it should just disable the ABS function....

The MoCo cut a deal with NHTSA, on how to handle the complaints NHTSA has received. It is my opinion that the MoCo managed to dupe/convince the NHTSA that the issue is maintenance, instead of faulty/bad design.... The MoCo dodged a big bullet....
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 06:58:43 PM by hattitude »

Offline Hossamania

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #53 on: February 13, 2018, 02:53:25 AM »
Braking systems have to have a secondary fail safe system, hence the E-brake and dual reservoir system separating front and rear brakes on cars.
Since motorcycles have separate front and rear systems, is that how they get by with having a complete failure on one system, a second is available as backup, therefore not a complete recall?
How does it affect linked systems? Do the front brakes still work if the rears fail, and vice-versa?
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Offline Ohio HD

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #54 on: February 13, 2018, 03:02:03 AM »
Yes, cars do have tandem braking systems. None have an emergency brake. The term emergency brake is in fact a parking brake, and that's all it's intended for. Not to stop a moving vehicle, but to hold it on an unlevel surface.
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Offline Hossamania

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #55 on: February 13, 2018, 03:23:05 AM »
Yes, cars do have tandem braking systems. None have an emergency brake. The term emergency brake is in fact a parking brake, and that's all it's intended for. Not to stop a moving vehicle, but to hold it on an unlevel surface.

True, I have always called it the parking brake, but it is always referred to as the E-brake now.
Cars only have one foot pedal, but because motorcycles have separate hand and foot brakes, is this how the total recall is being avoided?
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Offline Ohio HD

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #56 on: February 13, 2018, 03:27:17 AM »
Yes, cars do have tandem braking systems. None have an emergency brake. The term emergency brake is in fact a parking brake, and that's all it's intended for. Not to stop a moving vehicle, but to hold it on an unlevel surface.

True, I have always called it the parking brake, but it is always referred to as the E-brake now.
Cars only have one foot pedal, but because motorcycles have separate hand and foot brakes, is this how the total recall is being avoided?


My Silverado owners manual calls it a parking brake. If it were an emergency brake they would be showing you how to use them in drivers education.
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Offline kd

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #57 on: February 13, 2018, 04:58:44 AM »
Air braked and Hydraulic braked vehicles (cars and trucks) require 2 separate means of braking. One is hydraulic / air and the other is mechanical (cable, linkage for hydraulic or with air a spring). That is federal law in both of our countries (and the rest of the world). One has to be completely independent of the other in case of a failure and both must be in operating condition to pass a MV safety.   
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 05:07:11 AM by kd »
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Offline rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #58 on: February 13, 2018, 05:26:25 AM »
I wonder how many failed before the 2 year service interval? I do know, one of the v rods I test rode the rear brake was rock solid and inoperable. Bike was 6 months old at the time. This places the issue in a whole new light.
Ron

Online 1FSTRK

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #59 on: February 13, 2018, 05:44:44 AM »
If you are old enough this is where is started.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parking_brake#Emergency_brake

Like many things it is also regional, around here it was always refereed to as an emergency brake
and we were taught to use it as such in driver education class. We did driving drills in the school parking lot stopping by holding the release with one hand and pressing the pedal as well as a drill where you would be coming to a stop and the instructor would holler No Brakes and you had to hit the pedal.
Each car load of kids got a ride where the instructor would hit the brake at a high enough speed to get the car squirrely when he hit the pedal just to show what would happen when you locked the rear brakes at higher speed. (picture that in today's world) 
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Offline Ohio HD

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #60 on: February 13, 2018, 05:48:10 AM »
It's one of those things that gets called something it's not, and the name sticks. Parking brakes are not safety rated, they're requirement is that they hold a vehicle on a grade.


https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/393.41

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Offline Thermodyne

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #61 on: February 13, 2018, 06:21:02 AM »
Having one 1/2 of a brake system fail is not a defect issue in and of itself, as long as the other 1/2 still functions.  It's only been since 67 that cars have been required to have split systems.  All that is required is that there be fail over brakes.  Before 67, any loss of brake fluid was a total brake failure in many cars.   

The lack of personal injury's and accidents associated with the Harley ABS failures, as well as the low percentage of units that failed, make any further action unlikely.  The 11's are 7 years old now, so it's old vehicles in the eyes of the government.  And failures of brake related components would be considered wear and tear.  This is a safety action, not a shitty parts action.  If these were cars, you would have been lucky to get a sticker to put on the master cylinder.

Some might have success in court, but it would be a lot of expense for an sub $1000 repair.  And the MoCo knows that. 

 

Offline Hossamania

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #62 on: February 13, 2018, 12:09:45 PM »
The basis of the movie "Fight Club." Which costs more, the proper repair, or the settlement of the lawsuits.
All decisions are economic.
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Offline moose

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #63 on: February 14, 2018, 02:13:09 AM »
my rear brakes at times feel very hard to press but no abs light comes on.  This is on a 2011 ultra limited this has only happened a few times and I service the brakes once a year
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Offline rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #64 on: February 14, 2018, 05:36:51 AM »
my rear brakes at times feel very hard to press but no abs light comes on.  This is on a 2011 ultra limited this has only happened a few times and I service the brakes once a year
According to my V rod owners manual that occasional condition can be normal. Applying the rear brake only in hard engine braking or strong decels the rear tire slows down enough to prevent the rear brake from working and locking the tire up. The result is a hard rear peddle. The same conditions can lead to brake surging.
It would seem if one wants to stop fast, don't do hard down shifts or hard decels the same time you apply the brakes. Otherwords if you want to stop fast, the clutch needs to be pulled in.  What a  :turd: system this is. Mind you, I've not experienced it in 5 years of riding. My panic stops, the clutch was pulled in. Now the vrod I test rode that had a hard rear brake, I was in a hard decel, just after heavy throttle. Had it not been for the front brakes, I would have overshot the dealer driveway. So, was the ABS fkd or was it a condition I set up. I warned the second rider about the rear brake. He came back and said it worked ok. Hmm.
Ron
Ron

Offline bigfoot5x

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #65 on: February 14, 2018, 08:17:34 AM »
Back to an earlier question: A friend of mine had a 2009 Ultra. He began having a problem with the front brake first thing in the morning not working. Once the lever "broke loose" the brake worked fine the rest of the day. He took it in and was told the only fix was a new ABS module under the seat. He paid for that. Shouldn't he get reimbursed?

Offline Ancient

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #66 on: February 14, 2018, 09:36:08 AM »
Back to an earlier question: A friend of mine had a 2009 Ultra. He began having a problem with the front brake first thing in the morning not working. Once the lever "broke loose" the brake worked fine the rest of the day. He took it in and was told the only fix was a new ABS module under the seat. He paid for that. Shouldn't he get reimbursed?

It would be nice, but to my knowledge neither the moco or NHTSB has labeled that module as inherently defective. They've spun it as an owner lack of proper maintenance issue and they are giving you a big hug by doing the maintenance for free this time to keep you safe and warm. :emsad:

I don't think the moco is worrying about the owners very much. I'm sure they have projected to the penny what this recall will cost and what they will gain from appearing to do the right thing.

Greg

Offline Thermodyne

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #67 on: February 14, 2018, 11:47:46 AM »
my rear brakes at times feel very hard to press but no abs light comes on.  This is on a 2011 ultra limited this has only happened a few times and I service the brakes once a year

If the brakes are not hot, as in during a fast run through the twisties or an extended stay in the stop and go traffic, then its an issue. 

Offline moose

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #68 on: February 15, 2018, 02:32:29 AM »
JUST had mine done today at the dealer  MY06-11  factory paid  1.2 hours
used fluid # 4180070 platin fluid    bullitin #m1470

called one dealer and they said they had the fluid but could not sell it to me

went to a different one bought one for a spare  had the service done
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Offline Ohio HD

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #69 on: February 15, 2018, 02:36:42 AM »
Did HD send a letter to you, or did you just go and they ran your VIN to see if the bike qualified?
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Offline Thermodyne

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #70 on: February 15, 2018, 08:33:23 AM »
JUST had mine done today at the dealer  MY06-11  factory paid  1.2 hours
used fluid # 4180070 platin fluid    bullitin #m1470

called one dealer and they said they had the fluid but could not sell it to me

went to a different one bought one for a spare  had the service done

Platin fluid is what Ford went to to address some of their ABS failures.  It has some anti corrosion stuff added.

Quote
PLATIN BRAKE FLUID DOT 4 LV is a fully synthetic, low viscosity brake fluid for modern ESP and ABS control systems. It is based on glycols with oxidation and corrosion inhibitors and has high reserves for dry and wet boiling temperatures in compliance with DOT 4 and ISO Class 6.

Offline moose

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #71 on: February 15, 2018, 10:37:47 AM »
they pulled vin and did the service  I called ahead of time to make sure they could get it in and they had the new fluid in stock
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Offline Ohio HD

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #72 on: February 15, 2018, 10:42:09 AM »
Thanks, I was just curious if they had or will be sending out notices like they did with the brake light switches.
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Offline rbabos

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #73 on: February 15, 2018, 12:34:04 PM »
The whole deal is a bunch of crap in my view. Neither Platinum or Platin, which are two different brads of Dot 4 can exclude the two year recommended changes. While there might be a tad more inhibitors in the new formula product, any existing corrosion in there now will remain anyway, plus since the two year flush still applies to either brands the corrosion inhibitors will be mostly depleted also. Any and all of them will break down over time. It boils down to correct service intervals and methods.
Ron

Offline FSG

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Re: ABS Brake Recall - What is HD going to do
« Reply #74 on: February 15, 2018, 10:21:00 PM »
Quote
It boils down to correct service intervals and methods.

 :up: