Author Topic: Cold Starting Difficulty. CV.  (Read 996 times)

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Offline cycocycle

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Cold Starting Difficulty. CV.
« on: April 03, 2018, 02:45:43 PM »
I've got a 98 FXSTC that has only 15000 miles that I picked up last year. Its got a K&N filter element and SE slip ons but is otherwise stock as far as I can tell. The problem is when its cold its a pig to start. I've tried to develop a "method" but Im not getting anywhere. Its also not too fond of sudden throttle opening from low down, even when warm. Other than that it runs and starts like a swiss watch once its warmed up. On the highway it can be a little thirsty (100 miles full to reserve!).
Im going to pull the carb as with such low mileage I assume its been stood for some amount of time meaning a good clean is probably in order. While its off I will remove the idle jet blanking screw and optimise that setting. Ive got a CV rebuild kit and also a Custom Chrome upgrade kit. Should I rebuild it as stock and try to dial out the problems or fit different jet sizes?
 Here in Ireland its pretty much cold for half the year so it would be good to get it sorted in time for "summer".


Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: Cold Starting Difficulty. CV.
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2018, 03:10:30 PM »
Great looking 20 year old bike.
IMHO the enrichner should take care of the fuel on a cold start. I would check for an intake leak when cold before removing the carb. I would also do a proper warm Cylinder Cranking Pressure test to make sure you have good suction and to record for future reference being it is a new to you bike. Then remove and go through the carb. The idle mixture screw will help some but with the pipes and air cleaner you will probably need jetting.
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Offline Hossamania

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Re: Cold Starting Difficulty. CV.
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2018, 04:19:03 PM »
If the carb has never been adjusted for the air cleaner and pipes, you are definitely lean. I think the primary jet is a 42, go up to a 45, leave the main jet as is for now, and adjust the idle mixture screw when warm, there is a procedure for doing it, but it should end up about two turns out from gently seated.
Don't drill out the hole in the slide (some kits do this as part of the tuning. Don't.)
The other big thing to do is check for vacuum leaks. Twenty years tend to dry out the rubber gaskets on the manifold.
Does the choke make it idle higher when cold? If not, it may need a new enrichener, they are pretty cheap.
When starting cold, pull the enrichener (make sure it stays out, sometimes they creep back in), maybe twist and release the throttle a half turn, and try starting. Do not open the throttle when trying to start, it tends to negate the effect of the enrichener.
The carb could probably stand a good cleaning as well. It sounds like you are on the right track, good luck and have fun with that thing!
I meant to mention, pull the air cleaner and make sure you are getting a good squirt of raw fuel shooting into the carb when you twist the throttle.
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Offline tmwmoose

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Re: Cold Starting Difficulty. CV.
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2018, 04:51:03 PM »
Check and see how good your accelerator pump is squirting it might not be working

Offline rageglide

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Re: Cold Starting Difficulty. CV.
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2018, 04:55:59 PM »
I second pretty much everything Hoss said.  Double down on "Do not touch the throttle when starting".  Cracking the throttle while cranking defeats the enrichner. 

I'll add, make sure the VOES is functional, and not leaking.   You can test it with a vacuum tester and continuity tester.  20 yr old VOES could easily be leaking at the 'tower".  The silicone plug material often lets go around the perimeter and creates a vacuum leak.  Easy fix is to put a large rubber vacuum cap over the tower.  Works very well.

Leaking VOES would also explain 100 miles to Reserve, that's horrendous mileage for an Evo.  These bikes easily get 45-50mpg with proper jetting. 

Not going to hurt a thing to pull the carb give it a thorough cleaning and bump the idle jet up one size if you have a 42, a 45 is plenty.  Don't just open the screw to 2 turns and run it, start there and adjust when the engine is warm.   Personally I would suggest NOT using any jet kit.


Offline cycocycle

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Re: Cold Starting Difficulty. CV.
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2018, 12:28:29 AM »
Wow. Thanks for the replies folks. Some great food for thought there. I knew the mileage was terrible when my buddys 88 springer was going 160 miles to reserve with a Super E.
I don't open the throttle when staring. Maybe wick it a couple of times before hitting the button. I have a feeling that the accelerator pump may be hit and miss as I had the air cleaner off and couldn't see much fuel coming out. I later checked some Youtube videos of one in action and there was a substantial amount of fuel being sprayed.
 I think a rebuild with new seals/gaskets etc, idle jet adjustment and a #45 jet might get me a long way down the line. The VOES check is another one I would not have though of so I'll do that too.
 Looking forward to getting stuck in. This is why I got rid of my 2012 Fatboy. It wont cost me 100 bucks to have it plugged in to tell me I need to pay another 600 bucks for some genuine HD part.

Offline mr. pitts

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Re: Cold Starting Difficulty. CV.
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2018, 02:28:24 AM »
If you remove the carb, take the time to replace the 4 float bowl cross head screws with 3mm allen bolts. The screws are made of cheese & will chew up very easily. I can remove the float bowl on my '96 Electra with the carb in place, so the allen bolts will make jet changes much easier than continually removing the carb. Also, check the carb diaphragm for holes or splits. HTH.

Offline harley_cruiser

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Re: Cold Starting Difficulty. CV.
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2018, 04:04:40 AM »
With that kind of gas mileage I'm thinking its too rich and wonder if someone drilled out the jet instead of just changing it and it is flooding. Starting Try not using the choke, try not twisting the grip, also try twisting it all the way and wait a few then try starting.
I would replace both jets, stock, + one size on the idle. I would not put any Kits in it.
And like said, first check for a vacuum leak.
Oh yea put in new spark plugs and change the wires.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2018, 04:20:01 AM by Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers »

Offline hbkeith

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Re: Cold Starting Difficulty. CV.
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2018, 05:49:44 AM »
try giving it a more twists of throttle before cranking it before you do all the maybe unneeded repairs , ive had a bunch of CV EVOs and if mine is real cold or has sat I will have to twist the throttle 5 or 6 time then pull enricher and fires instant , first time in spring may take 10 twists

Offline Hossamania

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Re: Cold Starting Difficulty. CV.
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2018, 05:56:30 AM »
try giving it a more twists of throttle before cranking it before you do all the maybe unneeded repairs , ive had a bunch of CV EVOs and if mine is real cold or has sat I will have to twist the throttle 5 or 6 time then pull enricher and fires instant , first time in spring may take 10 twists

The low fuel mileage and doggy low end power point to at least some maintenance is in order.
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Offline Pete_Vit

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Re: Cold Starting Difficulty. CV.
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2018, 06:07:59 AM »
I bought my 98 Springer in 04 with about 7400 miles on her, it was a dog, it sat too long, the internal carb parts were green with  :unsure: , it would hardly start, would not get out of it's own way, I rebuilt the carb, added a thunderjet kit (not the best decision) and got ride of the stock exhaust, eventually I added a K&N (Screamin Eagle) air filter and a EV23 cam.
the bike ran so much better after the carb rebuild, everything else I did was just gravy

Offline cycocycle

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Re: Cold Starting Difficulty. CV.
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2018, 06:19:23 AM »
 I agree that while I might develop a method to get it fired up its horrendous fuel consumption is still an issue. Also while it has good power even when warm it can get caught out low down if I need to gun it for a gap in traffic. It will cough and bog for a second before picking up. On the move it flies.
 I'll be happier once I've been in to it and know its right. Besides, I don't want it letting me down miles from home while my weirdo "S&S and points" buddies stand around and tut-tut about how stock ignitions and CVs are garbage. Lunatics!  :teeth:

Offline Pete_Vit

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Re: Cold Starting Difficulty. CV.
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2018, 07:16:04 AM »
Nothing wrong with the CV's, mine needed to be rebuilt due to the previous owner let it sit too long and not properly storing it. S&S carb are great too but you loose what the CV gives you. IMO, a properly tuned CV on a stock EVO will never let you down.

Offline nibroc

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Re: Cold Starting Difficulty. CV.
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2018, 10:13:58 AM »
try giving it a more twists of throttle before cranking it before you do all the maybe unneeded repairs , ive had a bunch of CV EVOs and if mine is real cold or has sat I will have to twist the throttle 5 or 6 time then pull enricher and fires instant , first time in spring may take 10 twists

fully agree---mine's a 99 FLSTC and a 98 FLHTC---both last year for evos--fully stock and carbs never been touched--both still spit until fully--and I do mean fully-- warm..like hot

Offline harpwrench

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Re: Cold Starting Difficulty. CV.
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2018, 10:37:38 AM »
Your symptoms sound to me like a bad voes or vacuum hose (maybe both).

Offline JW113

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Re: Cold Starting Difficulty. CV.
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2018, 11:19:01 AM »
Yup, yup, and yup. Hard starting in cold damp weather as is common in Ireland is somewhat to be expected, but the 100 mile range on a tank of fuel is quite concerning. Since you are moving from a 2012 Fatboy to an Evo ST custom, I have to ask this:

When you fill up, are you filling up BOTH tanks through both fuel caps?

That 5.25 gal tank sure ought to get you close to 200 miles before reserve.

After the other checks, be sure to check the float level. Follow the book by doing this on a 15 degree incline.

Good luck, I'm sure you'll get it sorted out.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline cycocycle

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Re: Cold Starting Difficulty. CV.
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2018, 12:09:18 PM »
I'm not using both caps to fill it but it costs almost as much to fill as my girlfriend's 01 heritage so I assume it's equalizing between the tanks.
 Just checked there and the accelerator pump looks to be working ok. I'll rebuild the carb this weekend (torrential rain forecast!) and hopefully get to run her out to adjust the idle jet. Again this forum is proving to be a valuable source of real no b.s. info. Although I haven't asked what's the best oil or tyres yet..... :fish:

Offline Pete_Vit

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Re: Cold Starting Difficulty. CV.
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2018, 12:47:41 PM »
well, the gas does equalize, to about 1/2 tank  :smileo:
remember if you do fill both, fill the left one first, close it, then fill the right  :SM:

Offline koko3052

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Re: Cold Starting Difficulty. CV.
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2018, 01:00:14 PM »
If you are going to rebuild, try to get an ultrasonic cleaner, maybe your girlfriends jewelry cleaner, to clean it after you disassemble. Nothing cleans better! :wink:

Offline JW113

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Re: Cold Starting Difficulty. CV.
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2018, 02:02:44 PM »
"I'm not using both caps to fill it but it costs almost as much to fill as my girlfriend's 01 heritage so I assume it's equalizing between the tanks."


A-HA! There was a reason I asked than, and you've just confirmed. Yes, they will equalize, if you are taking 1/2 hour to fill the tanks. As Pete suggested, fill the left, then fill the right. I usually do this with the bike upright, and leave both caps off until I'm done filling up. Just for fun, take both caps off and do it your way, you'll see you're not getting a full tank of fuel.

OK on to the cold starting issue! By the way, does is seem to start OK after it's nice and hot?

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline harley_cruiser

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Re: Cold Starting Difficulty. CV.
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2018, 02:21:03 PM »
How old are the spark plugs and wires?

Offline cycocycle

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Re: Cold Starting Difficulty. CV.
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2018, 02:41:44 PM »
New champion plugs. Accel 8.8 wires on the way to replace braided wires.
 Once it's properly warmed up it's one of the easiest starting bikes I've had!

Offline JW113

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Re: Cold Starting Difficulty. CV.
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2018, 02:51:43 PM »
Hmm.... OK that sounds pretty normal then for an Evo. When you start it cold, do you:

Turn gas on.... pull out enrichener all the way.... turn on ign..... hit the starter?

Even cold, it should fire up. Mine absolutely hated to have any squirt of gas from the throttle. IT would have to crank for a while before it would fire if I even touched the throttle at a cold start.

Evos, esp in stock form as has been said, run very lean and cold blooded, but once warmed up run good.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline david lee

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Re: Cold Starting Difficulty. CV.
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2018, 02:56:48 PM »
Hmm.... OK that sounds pretty normal then for an Evo. When you start it cold, do you:

Turn gas on.... pull out enrichener all the way.... turn on ign..... hit the starter?

Even cold, it should fire up. Mine absolutely hated to have any squirt of gas from the throttle. IT would have to crank for a while before it would fire if I even touched the throttle at a cold start.

Evos, esp in stock form as has been said, run very lean and cold blooded, but once warmed up run good.

-JW

Offline david lee

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Re: Cold Starting Difficulty. CV.
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2018, 03:09:04 PM »
Hmm.... OK that sounds pretty normal then for an Evo. When you start it cold, do you:

Turn gas on.... pull out enrichener all the way.... turn on ign..... hit the starter?

Even cold, it should fire up. Mine absolutely hated to have any squirt of gas from the throttle. IT would have to crank for a while before it would fire if I even touched the throttle at a cold start.

Evos, esp in stock form as has been said, run very lean and cold blooded, but once warmed up run good.

-JW
id like to know what my mech did on my trike it wouldnt start or idle without the choke cold, until warm then would backfire and have a flat spot under sudden accelloration.now no choke 2 pumps on throttle then start.runs perfect now maybe others had this problem .thanks