Author Topic: EFI Tuners  (Read 1259 times)

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Offline Norton Commando

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EFI Tuners
« on: May 02, 2018, 02:52:43 PM »
I have an 2012 FLHTK and am currently evaluating EFI tuners. This bike has Vance and Hines Twin Slash Slip-ons and no other modifications. So I was thinking about buying a Vance and Hines FP3 tuner, part number 66007. Does anyone have experience with this tuner? Or does anyone know of a better turner for use with a 2012 FLHTK with the only modification being slip-ons?

Thank you and regards,

Jason
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Re: EFI Tuners
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2018, 03:51:41 PM »
The FP3 is not highly regarded here. No shops that tune for a living use them.
If you look in the Dyno section, you will see many tunes using Dynojet Power Vision, and TTS tuners. These will allow for many modifications in the future as well as handle the small change made with new pipes.
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Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: EFI Tuners
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2018, 07:54:06 PM »
If this FP3 is the one that marries to one bike and cannot be re used I have seen three removed and throw in the garbage in the last year. All bikes were then properly tuned on the dyno and are presently being ridden by happy owners. I tried to warn one owner for weeks before he bought it and he messed with VH and the shop that installed the pipes and tuner for months before giving in and removing it.
Do yourself a favor and buy a real tuner or better yet get it tuned by a pro.
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Offline aswracing

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Re: EFI Tuners
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2018, 06:11:42 AM »
Yeah the FP3 has a couple of really big limitations. The biggest one, in my opinion, is the closed V&H ecosystem. All tunes come from V&H. There's no ability for example to save your tune as a file, manipulate it on a PC, email it, etc. You live in V&H's world. You can change things from your phone, but it's tedious.

The other big one, again in my opinion, is the lack of any wideband support. There's no integrated support available, and there's no way to utilize third party solutions largely because of complaint number one. Without wide band capability, it's really hard to get a real high quality tune.

Now that said, for mild stage 1 types of mods, it's maybe not that critical. But the farther you go up the power chain, the more critical the tune becomes, and the FP3 gets progressively less suitable. Again, just my opinion.

I'm a big fan of the Powervision. Easy to use and highly capable and it also brings a whole ton of functionality that others don't by virtue of it's little display unit. Integrated wideband support with a couple of add-on products, the better of which offers closed loop wideband capability. It's really a remarkable device.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2018, 06:23:28 AM by aswracing »

Offline Norton Commando

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Re: EFI Tuners
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2018, 06:48:52 AM »
Thank you all for the feedback.

My goals from a tuning perspective are fairly simple:
1) Adjust the timing to make the motor run cooler
2) Richen-up the A/F ration to compensate for the Vance and Hines slip-on mufflers

Having said that, the bike runs well as it is. I bought it used so perhaps someone has performed a tune on it already? Is there a way tell?

My biggest gripe at this point is engine heat and I thought that a timing adjustment may help cool things off, combined with a slightly richer A/F mixture.
 
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Offline Fisherking

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Re: EFI Tuners
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2018, 07:32:30 AM »
I have an 2012 FLHTK and am currently evaluating EFI tuners. This bike has Vance and Hines Twin Slash Slip-ons and no other modifications. So I was thinking about buying a Vance and Hines FP3 tuner, part number 66007. Does anyone have experience with this tuner? Or does anyone know of a better turner for use with a 2012 FLHTK with the only modification being slip-ons?

Thank you and regards,

Jason

 I only have experiance with the power Visionwith self tune .

 I had a bad front injector , Intermentint. I( didn't know this 'it just sounded that it would get leaner so I re tuned. Finaly the injector gave out. PV has a self diognostic you dont have to read cods it tells you straight up.
I put in new injectors and the bike was burping and farting all over the place. I thought i rubed through the fuel lines in the tank.Nope that wasn't it but the bike ran really bad . so after much thinking I decided to put the original tune in.the bike ran fine. so the power vision can tune a problematic injector. I was really impressed.

 Fisher King.

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Re: EFI Tuners
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2018, 08:24:57 AM »
To get rid of the heat, a proper tune goes a long way, along with getting rid of the catalytic converter, which is right under your right foot.
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Offline Outerlimits

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Re: EFI Tuners
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2018, 09:29:46 AM »
Have a 2010 Ultra, Rinehart 3.5 in exhaust, Cat removed Had a Power Commander V, moved to SW FL from MD. It ran ok.....started, was well mannered around town, got terrible fuel mileage. Talking less than 200 miles to a tank riding one up. The heat in the summer was brutal off the bike. Occasional hiccup, backfire, but nothing serious.
Called this guy named Doc, up in Minneola Fl, made an appointment, I was totally blown away how well the bike ran, after his tune. Fuel mileage increased more power, less heat, the way I imagined it should run. I am a believer. Are Dyno tunes cheap.....nope, do they take a long time, yep, usually 3 hrs. But to me its worth it.
Not nocking other DIY tuners, if they work for you, great. Not everyone has the understanding and patience to follow the steps and get the desired results.
If all you care about is whether it starts, and moves, anything will work. A Professional Tuner will make a difference you can feel. Just my .02

Offline Bladesmith

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Re: EFI Tuners
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2018, 03:05:03 PM »
Call Jamie at Fuel Moto....He's the man with all the answers. I bought a premapped PC-5 from him and it was close to perfect.
" Don't follow leaders, and watch your parking meters" Dylan

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: EFI Tuners
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2018, 05:28:20 PM »
Call Jamie at Fuel Moto....He's the man with all the answers. I bought a premapped PC-5 from him and it was close to perfect.

How do you define "perfect"?
How did you determine it was "perfect"?
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

Offline BUGLET

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Re: EFI Tuners
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2018, 05:07:20 AM »
   I also would like to know what perfect is, as you can have your bike tuned by different tuners and the maps are going to be different, which one is perfect. It looks like ever tuner has his own way of tuning.

Offline N-gin

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Re: EFI Tuners
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2018, 06:15:32 AM »
I use TTS for initial tuning, and I fine tune with Twin scan WEGO 3D, the VE tables.
Best way is to use Wide band sensors and calibrate every time you use them.

Power Vision
TTS
Daytona Twin Tec
SE race tunner
ThunderMax
Everything else IMO is better stored in a trash can.
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Offline black

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Re: EFI Tuners
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2018, 06:58:03 AM »
Call Jamie at Fuel Moto....He's the man with all the answers. I bought a premapped PC-5 from him and it was close to perfect.

How do you define "perfect"?
How did you determine it was "perfect"?
I am happy with Jamie as well, Power vision for me ,you are always going to have a little more, but at what cost, it never ends !
send  lawyers guns and money

Offline Bladesmith

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Re: EFI Tuners
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2018, 11:43:05 AM »
Call Jamie at Fuel Moto....He's the man with all the answers. I bought a premapped PC-5 from him and it was close to perfect.

How do you define "perfect"?
How did you determine it was "perfect"?


Results were determined  by my "Butt Dyno"......My other bike has a SERT dynoed by the HD dealer, the pre map feels better. I've actually had HD service people ask what cam I had....It was stock !
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Offline r0de_runr

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Re: EFI Tuners
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2018, 02:08:16 PM »
To the OP, what is your price limit?  Do you want something simple?

your 2012 has a catalytic converter in it just aft of where the two header pipes come together.  Much heat is generated here.

The FP3 you are considering will make your bike run better than it does now, just load the recommended calibration for your pipes.

If you are good with tools and such, replace the air cleaner and headers (this is called a stage one) with your V&H pipes and load that calibration.  You will notice a much cooler, smoother and peppier motor.

Or you can get it tuned by a builder/tuner.
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Offline barrybasinger

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Re: EFI Tuners
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2018, 03:35:13 PM »
...Called this guy named Doc, up in Minneola Fl, made an appointment, I was totally blown away how well the bike ran, after his tune. Fuel mileage increased more power, less heat, the way I imagined it should run.

Might mention that Doc is one of the better ones out there. Used to be the Dyno instructor at MMI. He can be kind of a perfectionist (which is good), and does know what he's doing.  Mineola is a few miles above Orlando, if you're in the neighborhood.

Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: EFI Tuners
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2018, 04:39:19 AM »
To the OP, what is your price limit?  Do you want something simple?

your 2012 has a catalytic converter in it just aft of where the two header pipes come together.  Much heat is generated here.

The FP3 you are considering will make your bike run better than it does now, just load the recommended calibration for your pipes.

If you are good with tools and such, replace the air cleaner and headers (this is called a stage one) with your V&H pipes and load that calibration.  You will notice a much cooler, smoother and peppier motor.

Or you can get it tuned by a builder/tuner.

Unfortunately this is maybe a 50/50 chance. The best chance is with a stock bike and a V?H exhaust but even then you can have issues depending on model and air cleaners. the farther you get from stock worse your chances of having a good outcome with any of these ad-on fuel adjusters. I have seen a few this year that ran smoother, had less decel pop,or made more power on the dyno just by removing the fueler. Once tuned with a real tuning device by a professional there is just no comparison.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 04:44:30 AM by 1FSTRK »
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Offline r0de_runr

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Re: EFI Tuners
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2018, 03:28:47 PM »
The FP3 is a flash tuner, not an add on or piggy back unit and you can select cams other than stock, you can set whatever AFR you want, set your speedometer, and trade tune files with others.

Perhaps a couple of iterations or versions ago it was more crippled, but I have self tuned with a TTS and with a FP3 and I know for me the FP3 is 10 times easier for the simple mods I have.

If I had access to a brake dyno I could "fill in" a lot more cells and apply and do it again a couple times to set the VE tables, and then load whatever I wanted for my AFR tables, sniff the exhaust for my burn and fine tune the AFR's. 

I don't see a problem with the FP3 Flash Tuner.  I'm not proselytizing, I'm just saying I don't see a significant difference for simple mods and tunes.
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Re: EFI Tuners
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2018, 06:42:58 PM »
I am not familiar with the capabilities of the FP3, I just know that the shops and tuners here don't recommend it. Not a slam on it, just what I've seen here.
Can the FP3 change timing as well as changing the afr?
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Offline r0de_runr

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Re: EFI Tuners
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2018, 06:36:26 PM »
Can the FP3 change timing as well as changing the afr?

Yes....A dyno tune by a competent tuner is always going to be better than a self-tuned.  But all the device does is upload the tune the person created/modified, so the "tuner-person" is more important than the tuner device (in my opinion comparing FP3, PV and TTS).

Here is what it can do, per V&H, and this is from 2016.  Now it can do cams as well.

Air/Fuel:

front/rear VE, : a percentage indicating how completely the cylinder is filling

with air.

AFR, : the desired or “target” air/fuel ratio. The ECU uses this number to

calculate how much fuel to spray.

throttle progressivity (primary and secondary): Percentage indicating how

far the throttle blade should open. Compares the amount the twist grip is

rotated and how fast the engine is running.

Throttle table switchover gear: Two tables are available so one can be more

aggressive than the other. This value indicates when to switch from the

primary to the secondary table.

Acceleration, : amount of extra fuel to add when the engine is accelerating

Deceleration, : amount of fuel to remove when decelerating

F/R charge dilution, : Amount of exhaust gases remaining in the cylinder

after the exhaust valve is closed. The computer only uses this table when

manifold pressure is less than 60 kPa.

Closed loop range, :within this range, the ECU will use O2 sensor feedback to

adjust the fuel delivery

closed loop activation temp,: minimum temperature the engine must attain

before the ECU goes into closed loop (in “closed loop”, the Oxygen sensor is

used to trim the amount of fuel sprayed into the engine).

closed loop deactivation temp,: If the engine temperature drops below this

temperature, the ECU will go from closed loop to open loop mode (in “open

loop”, the ECU does not use the Oxygen sensor to trim fuel delivery)

Map load normalization,: table to compensate MAP readings for intake flow

restrictions. You should not need to adjust this table.

intake valve opening/closing angles,: indicate to the ECU when to read the

MAP sensor. This number is converted to a crankshaft sensor tooth position.

Adaptive control min temp: Minimum temperature where the ECU will start

to save the O2 sensor trim values (“learning”)

Spark:

F/R spark,: Spark timing table. Degrees of spark advance based on engine

load (MAP) and engine speed (RPM).

spark vs. engine temp,: Table to adjust the base spark timing for different

engine temperatures.

spark vs. air temp, Table to adjust spark timing for air temperature. Gives

you the ability to pull timing out at high load with high air temperature.

spark vs. head temp,: Table to adjust spark timing for head temperature.

Gives you the ability to pull timing out at high load with high head

temperatures.

adaptive knock retard, Maximum amount of knock retard which can be

learned. Based on engine load and engine rpm.

max knock retard, Maximum amount of retard which can be applied.

knock control activation temp, Minimum temperature where knock control

will start working.

knock control deactivation temp, If the engine temperature drops below this

level, the ECU will turn off knock control.

idle spark gain, The ECU will adjust the spark timing when the engine is

idling to help control the idle speed. This number affects how aggressive the

function is. You probably don’t need to adjust this.

idle spark max, Maximum amount the spark timing will be adjusted to

smooth idle rpm.

F/R closed throttle spark, Spark timing when the throttle is closed.

Closed throttle spark max tps. Maximum TPS setting where the Closed

Throttle Spark table is used. Above this temperature, the normal spark

timing tables are used.

Performance mode:

PE afr,: Performance Enrichment mode is a special “engine preservation”

mode designed to help keep the motor from being destroyed. After a period

of time at wide-open- throttle, the engine will start to add fuel and reduce

spark timing. This table indicates the desired AFR vs time. The longer the

engine is in this mode, the AFR should slowly decrease.

PE spark, : Spark timing while in PE mode.

PE disable rpm, :Once the engine is operating in PE mode, the RPM must drop

below this level before it reverts back to normal mode.

PE enable RPM,: Engine rpm must be above this level before entering PE

mode.

PE disable TPS, Once the engine is operating in PE mode, the TPS must drop

below this level before it reverts back to normal mode.

PE enable TPS, : The throttle position must be above this level to enter PE

mode.

Startup/Idle:

cranking fuel, Amount of fuel sprayed into the engine when the cranking.

Expressed as milliseconds. Engine displacement changes may require

changes to this table.

warmup enrichment, When the engine is warming up, it requires more fuel

than when it is fully warm. This table specifies the amount of enrichment.

iac crank steps vs. temp, When cranking, there is a minimum amount of air

required to get the engine to start. This air is controlled by the IAC motor

position. When the engine is cold, more air is required. This table allows you

to adjust this relationship.

iac crank to run,

iac warmup, Table indicating the initial IAC position vs. engine temperature.

The closer these numbers are to the actual IAC position, the smoother the

initial idle will be. Displacement changes may require adjustments to this

table.

idle rpm. Desired idle speed at various engine temperatures. Warning: oil

pressure drops with engine rpm and HD warns that 900 rpm is the minimum

speed to have adequate oil pressure.

Active exhaust

First gear: The HD exhaust system includes a restriction valve on

international bikes. This valve can open and close to help meet local noise

regulations. One table per gear. The bike must be moving for the ECU to

know which gear it is in; results with the bike stopped can vary. 100 is full

open, 0 is full closed.

Second gear: table for second gear. 100 is full open, 0 is full closed.

Third gear: table for third gear. 100 is full open, 0 is full closed.

Fourth gear: table for fourth and fifth gear. 100 is full open, 0 is full closed.

General:

Rev limit, maximum engine speed allowed.

injector size, Rated size of the fuel injector.

MPG adjustment, Adjusts the MPG reading on the bike. Larger numbers show

higher MPG.

engine displacement, Engine size.

Gear ratios (first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth): Gear ratio for each gear.

The ECU uses this info to know which gear it is in.
 
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Offline 1FSTRK

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Re: EFI Tuners
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2018, 07:45:04 PM »
Where can you down load the software that allows you to make all those adjustments?
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Re: EFI Tuners
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2018, 04:08:34 AM »
I would like to see someone use it to street tune their bike, and then see the results measured on a Dyno. I would then like to see a competent tuner try and improve it if possible with the FP3, and then retune it with their tuner of choice and compare the results.
Maybe that would lay to rest the bias for and against it as a very good tuning device.

As an aside, I was talking to a guy who had just gotten his FP3 and said it was great because he could use his phone to monitor it and change it to run better. All I could think was "You just started riding a motorcycle two years ago, you've never even worked on a lawnmower, what the hell do you know about tuning a Harley Davidson?"
But I didn't say anything, because I can be a nice guy sometimes...
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Offline TorQuePimp

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Re: EFI Tuners
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2018, 04:22:57 AM »
I would like to see someone use it to street tune their bike, and then see the results measured on a Dyno. I would then like to see a competent tuner try and improve it if possible with the FP3, and then retune it with their tuner of choice and compare the results.
Maybe that would lay to rest the bias for and against it as a very good tuning device.

As an aside, I was talking to a guy who had just gotten his FP3 and said it was great because he could use his phone to monitor it and change it to run better. All I could think was "You just started riding a motorcycle two years ago, you've never even worked on a lawnmower, what the hell do you know about tuning a Harley Davidson?"
But I didn't say anything, because I can be a nice guy sometimes...

Every tuner on this forum.....I'd bet has gotten in a bike with a fp3 and improved upon it with a proper Dyno tune

There is no replacement

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Re: EFI Tuners
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2018, 04:25:50 AM »
I would like to see someone use it to street tune their bike, and then see the results measured on a Dyno. I would then like to see a competent tuner try and improve it if possible with the FP3, and then retune it with their tuner of choice and compare the results.
Maybe that would lay to rest the bias for and against it as a very good tuning device.

As an aside, I was talking to a guy who had just gotten his FP3 and said it was great because he could use his phone to monitor it and change it to run better. All I could think was "You just started riding a motorcycle two years ago, you've never even worked on a lawnmower, what the hell do you know about tuning a Harley Davidson?"
But I didn't say anything, because I can be a nice guy sometimes...

Every tuner on this forum.....I'd bet has gotten in a bike with a fp3 and improved upon it with a proper Dyno tune

There is no replacement

I'm sure of that, but if it is such a great tuning device, it should be able to to be used by a tuner to match those results.
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Offline r0de_runr

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Re: EFI Tuners
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2018, 06:07:55 AM »
Where can you down load the software that allows you to make all those adjustments?


http://fuelpak.vanceandhines.com/videos.html
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