Author Topic: spewing oil after lay-up... and how to find my old posts?  (Read 850 times)

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Offline 1340evo

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spewing oil after lay-up... and how to find my old posts?
« on: May 13, 2018, 10:12:57 AM »
Sure I posted on this before, but can't find how to find them :)

Hogley has been laid up over winter, but got her started today and she through about 1/2 pint of oil straight out the breather!... had this before after lay-up so was ready with a catch tray.....  I think you have to get a new ball, seat the old one and replace etc...

Can anyone offer advise on the please... cheers.. :)

Offline Burnout

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Re: spewing oil after lay-up... and how to find my old posts?
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2018, 12:51:29 PM »
It's called sumping, it is normal after long term storage.

Oil seeps past the pump and fills up the motor.

This is why you should run the motor before topping off the oil level, because it will be over full if the motor has sumped.
They don't call me Ironhead Rick just because I'm "hard headed"

Offline 1340evo

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Re: spewing oil after lay-up... and how to find my old posts?
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2018, 01:08:23 PM »
Hi Burnout.. thanks for that... but can you stop it doing it?... thought I'd read somewhere you needed to buy a new ball bearing for the pump... tap the old on or new one to bed, then replace it with the other?... not sure if this is correct or where the BB lives exactly.

BTW... bought a GS LC... just been out again on it.. they are fantastic bikes... its amazing how many people have GS's and HD's :)
« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 01:15:29 PM by 1340evo »

Offline jsachs1

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Re: spewing oil after lay-up... and how to find my old posts?
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2018, 04:01:47 PM »
Hi Burnout.. thanks for that... but can you stop it doing it?... thought I'd read somewhere you needed to buy a new ball bearing for the pump... tap the old on or new one to bed, then replace it with the other?... not sure if this is correct or where the BB lives exactly.

BTW... bought a GS LC... just been out again on it.. they are fantastic bikes... its amazing how many people have GS's and HD's :)
The inner most plug on the top of the oil pump(left top) usually under the vent fitting.
Take out the plug or large screwdriver head plug. Remove the spring, and use a magnet to remove the ball. Inspect the ball for flaws. Clean the seat in the pump, and inspect. If all good and clean, reassemble, and you should be good to go.
John

Offline 1340evo

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Re: spewing oil after lay-up... and how to find my old posts?
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2018, 12:23:04 AM »
Thanks John

Thats great info.. will have a look.. Do you agree with the re-seating method of a quick tap.. then fit a new ball?...
Or just inspect and replace....
may be worth a new spring (if this acts on the ball?).. do these become weak?


Offline Burnout

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Re: spewing oil after lay-up... and how to find my old posts?
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2018, 06:29:50 AM »
The check balls don't usually leak.

Check ball sealing problems are usually due to debris.

Clean your oil tank or fix your motor if something is coming apart.

If it only happens once a year after winter storage its not broke.
They don't call me Ironhead Rick just because I'm "hard headed"

Offline 1340evo

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Re: spewing oil after lay-up... and how to find my old posts?
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2018, 08:50:41 AM »
I think it does it after about 4-6 weeks.. measured the amount that came out.. more like 1 pint!....

Online BKACHE

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Re: spewing oil after lay-up... and how to find my old posts?
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2018, 11:17:17 AM »
I have also heard of folks using a needle nose vice grip with short sections of oil lines on the noses to cut off the earl flow to the oil pump during long lay ups. Of course inspect the hose after the kink.

Online Hossamania

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Re: spewing oil after lay-up... and how to find my old posts?
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2018, 11:36:40 AM »
As far as finding old posts, you can do a search for some key words, or go to your profile and find the line listing posts from this user.
Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.

Offline 1340evo

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Re: spewing oil after lay-up... and how to find my old posts?
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2018, 03:02:59 PM »
if it comes to it, I can put a tap in it (just dont forget to turn it back on LOL)

but why do they do it.... and whats the fix?

Offline FSG

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Re: spewing oil after lay-up... and how to find my old posts?
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2018, 03:12:15 PM »
debris under the ball can provide a leak path, it doesn't take much

a quick tap and a new ball .................  well it's been done and works, sometimes ............... there's better methods

take the oil pump off and dismantle
use the end of an older pushrod and some lapping paste to lap in the ball seat in the pump
wash throughly
reassemble pump with new ball and re install

you should be good to go

Offline 1340evo

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Re: spewing oil after lay-up... and how to find my old posts?
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2018, 11:35:30 PM »
sounds good.. so its the ball seat where its leaking past?

Ok.. I'll get on with that... Cheers

Offline Burnout

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Re: spewing oil after lay-up... and how to find my old posts?
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2018, 06:35:33 AM »
I have heard many drunken campfire stories about lapping paste and a pushrod, however.

There is no way to get all the lapping paste out of your oil pump, I certainly don't want lapping paste getting pumped through MY motor.
Additionally any lapping grit that gets embedded in the soft aluminum of the ball seat will be the same as debris and could cause sealing issues.
If it is debris that is causing a problem with the check ball, you usually have bigger problems (something is coming apart).

Sumping during storage is part of the HD adventure, put a cookie sheet under the bike for your spring startup.
Or ride your bike often, don't just start it up in the shed either, that is worse for it.

Sumping is why the MoCo moved the oil tank down under the trans on the Twin Cams, with the oil tank lower than the pump oil does not seep back into the motor.
The down side of this is that the oil does not get cooled well under the bike and next to hot stuff.
I am convinced Oil overheating is the cause of most of the Twin Cam cam chest problems.
They don't call me Ironhead Rick just because I'm "hard headed"

Offline 1340evo

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Re: spewing oil after lay-up... and how to find my old posts?
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2018, 08:29:38 AM »
no debris in there.. so it's not falling in bits... must just be the seat.. will take a look.. may have a small mark in it or something... So it's the return line that leaks back is it?... what about spring strength.. could it be weak?

Online BKACHE

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Re: spewing oil after lay-up... and how to find my old posts?
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2018, 08:41:13 AM »
I think the return line dumps the return oil up on top inside the earl tank. So no pressure is built up to flood back into the engine. So the main feed line is the culprit. It pushes past the feed and return gears in the pump and pushes on the check ball. If any goop/crud/buildup/stuff allows the pressure to push back you will get earl in the crankcase. My '78 fxs did it and my '82 (not this year) did it. Each time just the first time of the year and the hot earl cleaned up the check ball by the second go around. I did take the top and spring off and ever so lightly tapped on the ball to seat it a bit better.   

Offline 1340evo

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Re: spewing oil after lay-up... and how to find my old posts?
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2018, 08:54:29 AM »
so this is the ball inside the top caps, LHS when looking forward (as sugested above) ??

Online BKACHE

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Re: spewing oil after lay-up... and how to find my old posts?
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2018, 11:00:43 AM »
As I remember it is the left of the 2. I was looking for an exploded view (usually J&P cycles has good info) but could not find it. One or the other anyway. Taking off the top caps are a pain sometimes. I finally took a 6 sided cold chisel and flattened the blade ground down the sides so the 'blade' just fits in the slot. Then use a crescent wrench on the side of the chisel to crack it loose. The cap nut on the engine has an oil screen that should be cleaned every now and then too.
 

Offline 1340evo

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Re: spewing oil after lay-up... and how to find my old posts?
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2018, 12:35:22 PM »
ok.. great... will take a look when I get time... cheers

Offline Burnout

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Re: spewing oil after lay-up... and how to find my old posts?
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2018, 01:40:17 PM »
Don't put a stiffer spring on the check ball. It may not even be the check ball that is leaking.
That spring is very light on purpose, it only needs to be strong enough to open the oil pressure switch.
Speaking of oil pressure switches, don't substitute a car switch because they have a higher set pressure than a HD unit.

In the oil pump body between the two sections there is a seal which can let oil into the motor via the return side if it is leaking.
They don't call me Ironhead Rick just because I'm "hard headed"

Offline 1340evo

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Re: spewing oil after lay-up... and how to find my old posts?
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2018, 02:15:13 PM »
oil pressure appears okay.. the light goes straight off.. and will stay off when stopped for a tad...

but may be worth a check if its coming off... where is it and what does it look like.. how do you check it / fit it?

guess thats all can be causing it... one of the two?

Offline david lee

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Re: spewing oil after lay-up... and how to find my old posts?
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2018, 02:50:59 PM »
i had the same problem on my 81 fx and for some reason fixed itself

Offline 1340evo

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Re: spewing oil after lay-up... and how to find my old posts?
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2018, 02:55:37 PM »
lucky you... just looked at the bike... there is one tall cap (Outside)... and a shorter one (inside)... so its the short one where the  spring / ball lives... there is a tapping and a pipe right above this but guess it will come out.... will have to take a look this weekend

Online SixShooter14

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Re: spewing oil after lay-up... and how to find my old posts?
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2018, 02:55:59 PM »
i had the same problem on my 81 fx and for some reason fixed itself
I hear the fix for this is to ride it more often... :hyst: :potstir:

sorry OP, someone had to say it.

My '92 has this problem every year or 2. It will puke a nice puddle on the ground then be good....
'92 FXSTC mostly stock

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: spewing oil after lay-up... and how to find my old posts?
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2018, 05:59:08 PM »
debris under the ball can provide a leak path, it doesn't take much

a quick tap and a new ball .................  well it's been done and works, sometimes ............... there's better methods

take the oil pump off and dismantle
use the end of an older pushrod and some lapping paste to lap in the ball seat in the pump
wash throughly
reassemble pump with new ball and re install

you should be good to go



What he said.

http://harleytechtalk.com/index.php?topic=53006.msg558966#msg558966

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Offline hogpipes1

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Re: spewing oil after lay-up... and how to find my old posts?
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2018, 08:37:56 PM »
Simple fix , change your oil  after last ride  if it's about time . put a note on gas tank  NO OIL . put away for winter. Spring  fresh oil . Might be some blow off  but nothing  like before.
OR i put a longer  hose  into the end of  the breather  hose , higher than the  seat . After the pump is done filling the tank from the eng and the hose , its back to normal  with the temp hose off. i do this if not changing oil before i put away.   my 85 fxrt, & 2000 sporty both do it.

Offline 1340evo

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Re: spewing oil after lay-up... and how to find my old posts?
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2018, 12:01:26 AM »
guess I can do this, but would rather fix the problem if I can...

Will try clean / tap the ball... then remove it it don't work...  lets face it, new pumps arn't much but would it still happen?

Offline bagga

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Re: spewing oil after lay-up... and how to find my old posts?
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2018, 05:25:46 AM »
Simple fix , change your oil  after last ride  if it's about time . put a note on gas tank  NO OIL . put away for winter. Spring  fresh oil . Might be some blow off  but nothing  like before.
OR i put a longer  hose  into the end of  the breather  hose , higher than the  seat . After the pump is done filling the tank from the eng and the hose , its back to normal  with the temp hose off. i do this if not changing oil before i put away.   my 85 fxrt, & 2000 sporty both do it.

this is exactly what i do. the oil in to feed line is  the only oil that can be blown out. oil is cheep, fixing it isn't. my 85 fl and my shovel head both do it if they haven't been run in several months. the easiest fix is to ride it more often.
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Offline 1340evo

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Re: spewing oil after lay-up... and how to find my old posts?
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2018, 07:20:57 AM »
Problem is with a few cars / bikes in the collection.. unless its a really nice day, the poor Hog is left in.. I do use it a bit in summer.. but have bought a BMW GS for the rest of the riding days... and I've got to say it's so usable, its become the bike I go for :(

Offline motorhogman

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Re: spewing oil after lay-up... and how to find my old posts?
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2018, 07:55:07 AM »
My 73 shovel used to do this.  Cured it by installing an S&S oil pump.  That was back around 1989.  Friend owns the bike now and it's still good.  He has let it set for as long as a year because of poor health.
I actually didn't change the pump just for that reason, I was doing other upgrades and while at it decided to go with the S&S pump.
where's the points and condenser ?
Tom / aka motor

Offline 1340evo

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Re: spewing oil after lay-up... and how to find my old posts?
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2018, 09:39:10 AM »
S&S do like nice.. but quite expensive especialy in the UK

Offline jsachs1

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Re: spewing oil after lay-up... and how to find my old posts?
« Reply #30 on: May 17, 2018, 03:57:29 PM »
You're beating a dead horse.
Inspect ball for imperfections, clean seat, tap, assemble, done.
John

Offline 1340evo

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Re: spewing oil after lay-up... and how to find my old posts?
« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2018, 06:42:45 AM »
So, bought 2 balls and a spring.... seated one... removed, and put in the other... all good until I look at the springs..

the one that came out was 2" long... the new one is 1.3/4" long?

TBH, the old one feels a bit lighter, the new one a bit stronger.... but I don't have standard caps either.. they are bolt head caps in place of OE ones with the slot in... I don't have the old ones so don't know how deep the counter bore is in them... but on these, the c/bore goes up into the hex a bit?
Is this why its a longer spring?... does the longer spring come with the new caps?.. not sure what make they are or anything?

Plan is to stretch the new spring to the old springs length (you don't increase the rate by doing this, only its length....)

What do you think?... why do the springs differ 1/4".. any thoughts?... or just fit it as is?... its still going to put pressure on the ball.. :)

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: spewing oil after lay-up... and how to find my old posts?
« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2018, 06:48:16 AM »
Put the spring in as is. You don't know that the one you took out is OEM, right? 
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Offline 1340evo

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Re: spewing oil after lay-up... and how to find my old posts?
« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2018, 07:22:44 AM »
do you know how deep the std caps are??.. 

Online JC 92FXRS

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Re: spewing oil after lay-up... and how to find my old posts?
« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2018, 12:33:40 AM »
1340...There is no problem with your bike. Mine throws about the same amount every spring after sitting for 7 months (Canada here). Completely normal. Never throws a drop during riding season. If you want see the Evos puck oil,  put it on a trailer or the back of a truck for a few hundred miles...then you'll see oil.
Ride on sir!  :up:
If it's doing it every time you light it up, then maybe you have a problem. just my experience with mine.
Cheers, Jeff
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Offline 1340evo

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Re: spewing oil after lay-up... and how to find my old posts?
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2018, 04:56:04 AM »
agree.. but just a bit concerned over the spring

The guy at the shop temds to guess the bits more than look them up.. '' I've been doing this for years '' is claimed quite often...

Only thing is, I've taken bits back before that don't fit, only to find out if from a earlier / later model !!

so with the spring being a shorter length.. I kind of wondered if it was correct? especialy with it being oil pump related.. if it was something else, I may not be too concerned... but don't want to mess the oil pump up!!


Offline hbkeith

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Re: spewing oil after lay-up... and how to find my old posts?
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2018, 12:14:36 PM »
1340...There is no problem with your bike. Mine throws about the same amount every spring after sitting for 7 months (Canada here). Completely normal. Never throws a drop during riding season. If you want see the Evos puck oil,  put it on a trailer or the back of a truck for a few hundred miles...then you'll see oil.
Ride on sir!  :up:
If it's doing it every time you light it up, then maybe you have a problem. just my experience with mine.
Cheers, Jeff
   your beating a dead horse also

Offline bobrk1

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Re: spewing oil after lay-up... and how to find my old posts?
« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2018, 03:54:38 AM »
Lol had a iron head and  a shovel  had to  put  a  pan under  them to  start  the  first  time  every  year  after  that  was  fine  all season