Author Topic: Oil Blow Bye Problem  (Read 1108 times)

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Offline bc1

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Oil Blow Bye Problem
« on: July 18, 2018, 06:06:10 PM »
I have been trying to solve a problem with my 2003 stock 88 cu in ultraClassic blowing oil through the breathers into the air filter and puking it all over the right side of the motor and bike.

The problem started on my way back from Americade in June.

Some back ground info: Stock engine, 70,000 miles on the bike, Andrews 21G cams, hydraulic lifters; 10 row Jagg oil cooler; The correct Harley oil filter; oil not over filled in the sump, correct level.

Here's what I have done so far, without fixing the problem: Replaced the breathers in the rocker boxes, no help; replaced the "O" rings on the oil pump, and the two on the cam plate, no help; also replaced the push rod cover "O" rings since I had the covers off.

I am at a loss and am ready to start in the rocker boxes again to see if I missed something.

I am stumped. Wild ideas I have are, the oil cooler is plugged??? I doubt it would cause the problem; oil filter problems?? not sure about that idea; possible plugged drain holes in the rocker boxes?

Any Ideas would be appreciated.

Offline wolf_59

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Re: Oil Blow Bye Problem
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2018, 06:36:44 PM »
When is it pucking? After sustained speeds/rpm over 3000 rpm?
Did you replace the O-ring from the pump to the engine case?

Offline rageglide

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Re: Oil Blow Bye Problem
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2018, 07:25:33 PM »
What parts did you use to replace the breathers in rocker boxs?   HD or Aftermarket?  Did you drill the drains while you were in there?

Offline kd

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Re: Oil Blow Bye Problem
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2018, 07:43:57 PM »
Compression check (wet and dry) and leak down test for damaged or worn rings?
KD

Offline Armin

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Re: Oil Blow Bye Problem
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2018, 04:09:26 AM »
First thing to do is to redrill the drain holes of the rocker supports to .125 inch besides renewing all gaskets, the umbrella valves and the breather filter element. The correct oil pump alignment is a must. I experienced serious blowby last year especially on prolonged trips operating the engine in the midrange region until I installed the Doherty MystFree gadget that totally remedied the blowby problem. Others have had negative results with the MystFree thing and beyond that it is not cheap, Doherty went out of business though as Mr. Doherty died a while ago but it is still produced by another company. Just google MystFree.

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Offline rbabos

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Re: Oil Blow Bye Problem
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2018, 05:41:17 AM »
Leakdown check it. Most likely the issue is from worn rings causing more then desirable blowby. At 70k the ring gaps will be large.
Ron

Offline bc1

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Re: Oil Blow Bye Problem
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2018, 05:49:24 AM »
What parts did you use to replace the breathers in rocker boxs?   HD or Aftermarket?  Did you drill the drains while you were in there?

Pukes at 1800 and up. Yes I did replace the "O" ring on the oil pump and the two on the cam plate.

Offline bc1

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Re: Oil Blow Bye Problem
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2018, 05:57:35 AM »
What parts did you use to replace the breathers in rocker boxs?   HD or Aftermarket?  Did you drill the drains while you were in there?

I replaced the breathers with James units. The breathers I took out were OEM, one piece, non re-bulidable.No I did not drill out the drains. I haven't had any problems before this started. The engine pukes out about 1/2 cup of oil in about 20 miles at 45-50 mph.

Offline bc1

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Re: Oil Blow Bye Problem
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2018, 05:58:57 AM »
Compression check (wet and dry) and leak down test for damaged or worn rings?

Unbelievable at 70K miles, but very good compression, 149 - 150 psi per cylinder. Leak down is good also.

Offline bc1

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Re: Oil Blow Bye Problem
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2018, 06:02:00 AM »
Leakdown check it. Most likely the issue is from worn rings causing more then desirable blowby. At 70k the ring gaps will be large.
Ron

As fast as this started, I don't think the rings are too worn, yet. Great compression, I did check leak down, it was good.

Offline Y2KRKNG

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Re: Oil Blow Bye Problem
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2018, 06:19:30 AM »
Did you look at the oil pump while you were in there? Sounds like the scavenge side is chewed up or cracked. Check pinion run-out?
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Offline rigidthumper

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Re: Oil Blow Bye Problem
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2018, 07:01:46 AM »
This is early enough to have the paper lifter block gaskets- and I have seen them break apart internally and clog passages.

Offline joe40x

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Re: Oil Blow Bye Problem
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2018, 07:02:39 AM »
Lower rocker box gasket installed correctly?

Offline rageglide

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Re: Oil Blow Bye Problem
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2018, 09:55:08 AM »

I replaced the breathers with James units. The breathers I took out were OEM, one piece, non re-bulidable.No I did not drill out the drains. I haven't had any problems before this started. The engine pukes out about 1/2 cup of oil in about 20 miles at 45-50 mph.

First thing I'd do is pull it all apart and throw the James units in the trash.  Buy the newer designed HD breathers.  Price is actually reasonable and the parts are superior.   Every James umbrella i've ever touched was way too stiff and won't seal as well as the HD umbrellas.  Don't like James gaskets for the breathers either.  And, drill the drains to .125

Offline smoserx1

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Re: Oil Blow Bye Problem
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2018, 03:13:20 PM »
The only time I ever had this problem it was due to those plastic breathers.  Look at this diagram (the parts between 24 and 26):

Ronnie's HD  https://tinyurl.com/ydcjgxk3

That shows how the breathers should be assembled.  Sponge on bottom, umbrella valve on top with stem going down.  If assembled wrong it will puke like hell.  Also, did you replace the lower rocker gaskets, item 14 in the diagram?  If installed upside down puking will occur.  Harley ones are marked to help you install them right.  I doubt it is rings since it started so suddenly.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2018, 05:44:03 PM by FSG »

Offline rbabos

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Re: Oil Blow Bye Problem
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2018, 03:32:13 PM »
Leakdown check it. Most likely the issue is from worn rings causing more then desirable blowby. At 70k the ring gaps will be large.
Ron

As fast as this started, I don't think the rings are too worn, yet. Great compression, I did check leak down, it was good.
Had to ask. Second suspicion is the umbrella valves themselves. Pull the hoses off of the breather bolts and put a short fuel hose on . If you can blow into the engine in either, there's the problem. You should only be able to suck from the engine. Someone mentioned James components in the breather. I found their umbrellas to be warped crap right out of the package. Would not seal right off the bat so went back to OEMs. If these valves don't seal crankcase breathing gets violent taking oil out of the engine into the breather.
Ron

Offline bc1

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Re: Oil Blow Bye Problem
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2018, 04:13:06 PM »
This is early enough to have the paper lifter block gaskets- and I have seen them break apart internally and clog passages.

Checked, they were in one piece.

Offline bc1

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Re: Oil Blow Bye Problem
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2018, 04:14:00 PM »
Lower rocker box gasket installed correctly?

Never removed the rocker boxes, just changed the breathers.

Offline bc1

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Re: Oil Blow Bye Problem
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2018, 04:15:42 PM »


First thing I'd do is pull it all apart and throw the James units in the trash.  Buy the newer designed HD breathers.  Price is actually reasonable and the parts are superior.   Every James umbrella i've ever touched was way too stiff and won't seal as well as the HD umbrellas.  Don't like James gaskets for the breathers either.  And, drill the drains to .125
[/quote]

The breathers I received checked out fine. Umbrellas very flexible.

Offline bc1

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Re: Oil Blow Bye Problem
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2018, 04:17:51 PM »
The only time I ever had this problem it was due to those plastic breathers.  Look at this diagram (the parts between 24 and 26):

I agree with the comment on the plastic one piece breathers, that was why they were my first choice of parts to change.
Never pulled the rocker boxes.

Offline bc1

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Re: Oil Blow Bye Problem
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2018, 04:19:00 PM »
This is early enough to have the paper lifter block gaskets- and I have seen them break apart internally and clog passages.

Checked, they were in one piece.  Good tip on checking the umbrellas, thanks.

Offline bc1

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Re: Oil Blow Bye Problem
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2018, 04:22:14 PM »
Did you look at the oil pump while you were in there? Sounds like the scavenge side is chewed up or cracked. Check pinion run-out?

I think you are on to something with a problem on the scavenge side of the pump. The motor is puking more oil then when first started. I have ordered a Fueling 7010 and am going to install it. If this fixes the problem, I will have fun taking the OEM pump apart to see if there is a problem.

Offline rageglide

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Re: Oil Blow Bye Problem
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2018, 08:17:46 PM »
Put your hands on an new OEM umbrella and compare it to the James.  There is zero comparison, James may as well be made of hard plastic.   James quality went down the drain in the 90's.

Buy the HD updated kits and drill your drains.   

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Offline prodrag1320

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Re: Oil Blow Bye Problem
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2018, 04:01:37 AM »
im sure its a combination of worn rings & old breather parts.good time to go 95" or 98".

Offline Y2KRKNG

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Re: Oil Blow Bye Problem
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2018, 12:45:42 PM »
Did you look at the oil pump while you were in there? Sounds like the scavenge side is chewed up or cracked. Check pinion run-out?

I think you are on to something with a problem on the scavenge side of the pump. The motor is puking more oil then when first started. I have ordered a Fueling 7010 and am going to install it. If this fixes the problem, I will have fun taking the OEM pump apart to see if there is a problem.

You really need to check run out. If your old pump has "clearanced" itself due to excessive run out and you slap a new tight pump on...Look out.
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