Author Topic: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary  (Read 71940 times)

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Offline VDeuce

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #725 on: December 02, 2017, 09:23:39 AM »
I have a 18 with transfer issues. My dealer called Harley Tech and was told they have a oil deflector prototype they are installing in the trans. I'm working thru the transfer validation to get one installed.
My bike has 600 miles on the clock. At 490 dealer filled tranny with 12 oz.  Dealer wants me to get to 1000 miles to validate TA0022 and then HD will send someone out to install the deflector..

Anybody know what this "deflector" looks like?
That is interesting, please update us!

Offline Bigtwin

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #726 on: December 02, 2017, 09:50:08 AM »

2 HD France technicians come to my dealer on Wednesday to install a prototype too. It must be this famous mechanical part. I asked my dealer to try to make a photo

Offline To The Max

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #727 on: December 02, 2017, 06:33:28 PM »
there is no room for a slinger
Between the bearing and the nut  and possibly dished slightly. ?

Offline To The Max

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #728 on: December 02, 2017, 06:51:20 PM »
I think the oil runs down the inverted cone of the  end plate on to the push rod. the oil flow needs to be minamised not stopped, maybe  :scratch:

Offline FSG

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #729 on: December 02, 2017, 07:39:32 PM »
there is no room for a slinger
Between the bearing and the nut  and possibly dished slightly. ?

still not a lot of room there, to prove a point just fit a sealed bearing after removing the inside seal


Offline harleytuner

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #730 on: December 03, 2017, 04:44:22 AM »
there is no room for a slinger
Between the bearing and the nut  and possibly dished slightly. ?

still not a lot of room there, to prove a point just fit a sealed bearing after removing the inside seal

Cole's been trying to find a sealed bearing for awhile now with no luck.  Currently testing a modifies bearing but I haven't heard the outcome.
Enjoying the hell out of my "hotted" up twincam

Offline 50Panhead

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #731 on: December 03, 2017, 03:49:53 PM »
I have read about 15 of the 30 pages of postings on this subject...
As a FYI,,,I traded my 2010 Classic in last April for a 2017 Limited.

I do all my own maintenance. At 1000 miles I did the service and changed all the oils.  In June I took off for a 3000 mile trip to Utah. When I got back I changed the motor oil and primary oil. But not the transmission.

September I headed out to Eastern Pennsylvania. The day before I left I check the bike over including the transmission. And like so many others there was no oil on the dipstick. I added quite a bit maybe 5 oz or more. Mileage was at 8,000 then. I did nothing to the primary...  I'm at 12,000 miles now.  Riding season is all but over and I have three other bikes that I use for daily riders.   When I get time I'll put the Limited on the lift and properly measure the transmission and primary oil and document what I find.   

I live in Central Missouri.

Following this Thread with interest.
Herman
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Online Jim Bronson

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #732 on: December 03, 2017, 07:04:14 PM »
I previously mentioned that my main riding buddy didn't have the transfer problem with his '17 RK. Well I lied. I talked to him on Friday after our ride and convinced him to check the trans fluid level. He called me back yesterday and said the fluid was just barely touching the bottom of the dipstick. It was at the 'full' mark at the 5000 mile service (bike now has about 10,000). He took it in to the dealer who determined that 12 ounces had transferred to the primary. They filled the tranny and the primary to the recommended levels, and the SM told him to bring back in after another 1,000 miles. They also gave him a copy of the TA0022 document, and I was surprised that it also includes twin cam touring bikes from 2014 up. I was confused by the fix for the twin cams, which is to replace the oil seal (12068) and shaft spacer (24009-06). These parts are in the right side of the sprocket shaft. For the life of me, I can't see how that would fix the problem.
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Offline hd06

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #733 on: December 04, 2017, 03:21:46 AM »
 Just a quick note don't let them put Bel-Ray in the trans. It is bad on the clutch pads.

Offline harleytuner

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #734 on: December 04, 2017, 04:25:53 AM »
I previously mentioned that my main riding buddy didn't have the transfer problem with his '17 RK. Well I lied. I talked to him on Friday after our ride and convinced him to check the trans fluid level. He called me back yesterday and said the fluid was just barely touching the bottom of the dipstick. It was at the 'full' mark at the 5000 mile service (bike now has about 10,000). He took it in to the dealer who determined that 12 ounces had transferred to the primary. They filled the tranny and the primary to the recommended levels, and the SM told him to bring back in after another 1,000 miles. They also gave him a copy of the TA0022 document, and I was surprised that it also includes twin cam touring bikes from 2014 up. I was confused by the fix for the twin cams, which is to replace the oil seal (12068) and shaft spacer (24009-06). These parts are in the right side of the sprocket shaft. For the life of me, I can't see how that would fix the problem.

These are on the left side of the crankshaft. 
Enjoying the hell out of my "hotted" up twincam

Offline hd06myway

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #735 on: December 04, 2017, 06:27:36 AM »
I would think if this problem, which has been seen before M8's in very small numbers, was fixed then this issue shouldn't be that big a mystery to the Engineers.. or is it the problem is so far and few between H-D doesn't recognize it as an issue?  I mean, I NEVER came across one person who told me they had a cam shoe tensioner fail on a TC and this is before the hydraulic design.. 47k on my '06 Softail and haven't even had to change a light bulb.... just saying, Tech Forums are for people experiencing problems but that doesn't make it widespread or an issue for the Moco to recall or redesign...  there's what.. 9-10 people here discussing this issue and millions of H-D owners out there riding along.. oblivious to this and quite frankly, lucky they'll NEVER see the issue...
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 06:38:19 AM by hd06myway »

Offline rigidthumper

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #736 on: December 04, 2017, 07:08:02 AM »
While I will say the ratio of "catastrophic failure" to "no issues" is small, there are & have been issues. HD has it's reputation, due in no small part, to the fact that these beasts will run, and run decently, in poor condition- lots of owners neglect even simple maintenance.  Fella I know has 155K on his FLHT, and was complaining about the forks not feeling right. I asked him when was the last time he changed the fork oil? He just stared at me, and then said "Never, why? How often are you supposed to change fork oil"? 
As far as the tensioner problem, I've personally replaced hundreds- and a couple dozen CVO engines that were shrapnel from cam bearing failure, seen IDK how many lifter failures, stators & regulators out the wazoo, etc, compensators, etc.   Benefits of working at a dealership, maybe? Original cam bearing design was bad enough they sent kits out with new cam plates, lifters, cams, etc for the early TCs.
As far as the M8 goes, if you never go above 3K RPM, you may never have enough transfer to worry about. Most folks don't, so they have no issue. Some guys feel like they paid for the entire rev range, and are gonna use it- and should be able to, without worrying about having to remove the extra fluid from the primary, and put it back in the trans, every few miles...

Offline harleytuner

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #737 on: December 04, 2017, 08:23:15 AM »
I would think if this problem, which has been seen before M8's in very small numbers, was fixed then this issue shouldn't be that big a mystery to the Engineers.. or is it the problem is so far and few between H-D doesn't recognize it as an issue?  I mean, I NEVER came across one person who told me they had a cam shoe tensioner fail on a TC and this is before the hydraulic design.. 47k on my '06 Softail and haven't even had to change a light bulb.... just saying, Tech Forums are for people experiencing problems but that doesn't make it widespread or an issue for the Moco to recall or redesign...  there's what.. 9-10 people here discussing this issue and millions of H-D owners out there riding along.. oblivious to this and quite frankly, lucky they'll NEVER see the issue...

There is enough reports of HD's sumping and transferring trans fluid that HD issued bulletins for each of those issues. 

Like Rigidthumper, I have replaced many engines for failed cam shoes.
Enjoying the hell out of my "hotted" up twincam

Offline hd06myway

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #738 on: December 04, 2017, 09:26:17 AM »
I would think if this problem, which has been seen before M8's in very small numbers, was fixed then this issue shouldn't be that big a mystery to the Engineers.. or is it the problem is so far and few between H-D doesn't recognize it as an issue?  I mean, I NEVER came across one person who told me they had a cam shoe tensioner fail on a TC and this is before the hydraulic design.. 47k on my '06 Softail and haven't even had to change a light bulb.... just saying, Tech Forums are for people experiencing problems but that doesn't make it widespread or an issue for the Moco to recall or redesign...  there's what.. 9-10 people here discussing this issue and millions of H-D owners out there riding along.. oblivious to this and quite frankly, lucky they'll NEVER see the issue...

There is enough reports of HD's sumping and transferring trans fluid that HD issued bulletins for each of those issues. 

Like Rigidthumper, I have replaced many engines for failed cam shoes.

I'll believe what you said no reason not to, but a catastrophic engine failure due to cam shoe tensioner failures are pretty rare,...it would have to damage the oil pump, (as I'm sure your aware) just saying... I'm not questioning whether these issues are real or not but to the casual forum visitor, things may look a lot worse than they actually are.  It's also good to note that many of these problems accure in modified, and highly modified engines... my '06 88" was kept stock only an air filter upgrade and reflash... I'm not one to abuse my bike but I get on her pretty good in my "normal' day to day riding, never shy about twisting the throttle for high RPMs...  like any mfg, motorcycle,auto or otherwise, if the problem is rare in "normal" driving conditions, they aren't going to invest time and $ for a solution ... hopefully the Motor Co. does find a fix or the folks at this forum :)

Offline PoorUB

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #739 on: December 04, 2017, 10:43:26 AM »
It took HD 7-8 years to come up with a better cam chain and tensioner set up and it was a big deal affecting pretty any TC with any real miles on it. Makes wonder how long it will take to fix the issues with the M8 beings it affect just a relatively small number.
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Offline hd06myway

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #740 on: December 04, 2017, 11:02:33 AM »
It took HD 7-8 years to come up with a better cam chain and tensioner set up and it was a big deal affecting pretty any TC with any real miles on it. Makes wonder how long it will take to fix the issues with the M8 beings it affect just a relatively small number.

Everyone I know has a TC )it seems) and I've never heard the conversation come up... and cam tensioners have been used in the auto industry for decades... again, this is a tech forum I get it. and many here own independent shops and their livelihood depends on people taking a stock H-D and hot rodding it.. most of those riders with hot bikes don't have any "real" miles on them but they have real problems..  :SM:

Offline 04 SE DEUCE

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #741 on: December 04, 2017, 11:04:12 AM »
The problem is real,  I stated that in regards to the OP made in February.

The fact that HD has service bulletins for transfer and sumping makes it a none arguable point IMO.

The fact that HD has been dealing with this for basically a year just shows off their engineering prowess.

Dealers and Independents that do decent volume and are paying attention to their work will have a better grasp on what is happening than the internet types.  An Indy started this thread.

Having spend a good part of my youth in an HD dealership I am somewhat aware of the screw-ups HD use to be capable of especially when there was a product change/update and how difficult they can be to compensate the dealer for their "messes."  If you haven't been party to ownership or employment in a dealership or some capacity in HD you may not ackowledge or understand these issues.

The internet will not only generate myths but at times resist the truth!

Offline Ohio HD

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #742 on: December 04, 2017, 11:48:52 AM »
It took HD 7-8 years to come up with a better cam chain and tensioner set up and it was a big deal affecting pretty any TC with any real miles on it. Makes wonder how long it will take to fix the issues with the M8 beings it affect just a relatively small number.

Everyone I know has a TC )it seems) and I've never heard the conversation come up... and cam tensioners have been used in the auto industry for decades... again, this is a tech forum I get it. and many here own independent shops and their livelihood depends on people taking a stock H-D and hot rodding it.. most of those riders with hot bikes don't have any "real" miles on them but they have real problems..  :SM:

You have 47k on that 11 year old bike now.....   maybe you should look at those spring loaded tensioners this winter, I know I would.
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Offline borno

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #743 on: December 04, 2017, 12:12:28 PM »
It took HD 7-8 years to come up with a better cam chain and tensioner set up and it was a big deal affecting pretty any TC with any real miles on it. Makes wonder how long it will take to fix the issues with the M8 beings it affect just a relatively small number.

Everyone I know has a TC )it seems) and I've never heard the conversation come up... and cam tensioners have been used in the auto industry for decades... again, this is a tech forum I get it. and many here own independent shops and their livelihood depends on people taking a stock H-D and hot rodding it.. most of those riders with hot bikes don't have any "real" miles on them but they have real problems..  :SM:

You have 47k on that 11 year old bike now.....   maybe you should look at those spring loaded tensioners this winter, I know I would.

For real  :up:

Offline FSG

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #744 on: December 04, 2017, 12:15:47 PM »
 :SM:

Offline hd06myway

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #745 on: December 04, 2017, 12:46:16 PM »
It took HD 7-8 years to come up with a better cam chain and tensioner set up and it was a big deal affecting pretty any TC with any real miles on it. Makes wonder how long it will take to fix the issues with the M8 beings it affect just a relatively small number.

Everyone I know has a TC )it seems) and I've never heard the conversation come up... and cam tensioners have been used in the auto industry for decades... again, this is a tech forum I get it. and many here own independent shops and their livelihood depends on people taking a stock H-D and hot rodding it.. most of those riders with hot bikes don't have any "real" miles on them but they have real problems..  :SM:

You have 47k on that 11 year old bike now.....   maybe you should look at those spring loaded tensioners this winter, I know I would.

I'm going to... if I don't buy an M8 ..  :wink:

Offline PoorUB

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #746 on: December 04, 2017, 02:26:48 PM »
47k? My '05 wouldn't have made it that long. I tore it apart around 30k and the inside tensioner was about 3/4ths worn out. Pressing your luck!!
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Offline FLHRI_2004

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #747 on: December 04, 2017, 04:45:12 PM »
. . . millions of H-D owners out there riding along.. oblivious to this and quite frankly, lucky they'll NEVER see the issue...

I know many who ride only a few thousand miles per year.  One guy has a nice (all stock) 2003 RK with fewer than 6,000 miles.  Guys who ride 500 miles per year may never experience problems.

My '04 RK had 51,000 miles when I changed the tensioners.  The inner one was 4/5 the way worn through.  I was really lucky and caught it just in time (should have changed them at 40,000).  Some have failed at 20,000 miles.

I don't ride like some (only 14,000 miles for me this year on my '14), but many on this forum ride a lot more per year.  More miles, even on a stock bike, will reveal problems that so many "out there" will never see.

. . . Just saying.
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Offline Ohio HD

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #748 on: December 04, 2017, 05:03:20 PM »

I know many who ride only a few thousand miles per year.  One guy has a nice (all stock) 2003 RK with fewer than 6,000 miles.  Guys who ride 500 miles per year may never experience problems.

My '04 RK had 51,000 miles when I changed the tensioners.  The inner one was 4/5 the way worn through.  I was really lucky and caught it just in time (should have changed them at 40,000).  Some have failed at 20,000 miles.

I don't ride like some (only 14,000 miles for me this year on my '14), but many on this forum ride a lot more per year.  More miles, even on a stock bike, will reveal problems that so many "out there" will never see.

. . . Just saying.

Exactly true, the problem is there, but some will never see it do to low usage.
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Offline DTTJGlide

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Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
« Reply #749 on: December 04, 2017, 06:14:10 PM »
They have come up with a small seal that goes on the clutch pushrod, there is a pic over on HDF. Looks like it's pressed on to the nut on the mainshaft bearing, owner says it was installed 11/30, too cold to test it out yet. :idunno: