Porting stock M8 heads v. SE CNC

[04 SE Deuce]

We have a member here doing testing and sharing the info no charge, whatever the motivation may be. Please don't piss him off, the rest of us would like to hear what he has to say.

AMEN,   something I've posted a few times over the years.

[1FSTRK]

We have a member here doing testing and sharing the info no charge, whatever the motivation may be. Please don't piss him off, the rest of us would like to hear what he has to say.

Who are you referring to that is doing the testing?
Did you read the OP?

[badcooky]

The only crowd that don't know 4v is the HD crowd , everyone else has had them for at least 10 years,shoot the Rolls Royce Merlin(Packard Merlin) engine was a 4 valver in WW2.
Yep under the curve is awesome for torque , wait 6 months to a year and both sides will be far better for power.
Like I said the 4V engine gets better with revs, Hd's will get gains but not like something revving to 12 or 13K.

[sbcharlie]

My thoughts that flst guy cracks me up  get over it the
The twin cams are history  you stated you had on 05 that
Has great numbers.  Let's see 5 or 6 years for twin cam to
Be out. Give the m8 a few years   

[1FSTRK]

My thoughts that flst guy cracks me up  get over it the
The twin cams are history  you stated you had on 05 that
Has great numbers.  Let's see 5 or 6 years for twin cam to
Be out. Give the m8 a few years

Nothing to get over. I know you need to push this to make a living, nothing wrong with the concept of 4 valve heads the problem is these M-8 heads are not out performing anything yet. You say wait a few years, you are not waiting a few years until they are figured out and making more power to sell your porting. I am always a customer for more power, offer some actual gains in efficiency and power and I am a customer.

Show us a test with a cam and big bore kit, then pull the heads, port them and retest on the same engine and you will have something. Better yet port a set of stock castings and send them to Durwood so he can dyno them on his test bike and let him post the honest gains. Don't tell us, show us. You can prove just how wrong I am, just send him some ported stock casting that will bolt on his test bike and make 1.2-1.26 HP/CI.

[BigT]

I had a 1999 Twin Cam 117" with a Woods 51cv carburetor  Baisley hybrid heads, Tman 650 Cam @ 11.3:1. and squeezed out 134" hp/ tq with a lot of hours on the dyno trying different combinations.  Tried to use the best parts available. Fast bike at the time and wouldn't think twice about taking it on a long trip. I'm currently building an M8 117" and hopefully meet or exceed those numbers with less effort. The new M8 platform with the approved suspension and handling with less vibration is by far the best bike I've  ever ridden. I'm betting on some kick ass cams and exhaust coming out in the near future that will work with those SE heads I bought.

[Admiral Akbar]

My thoughts that flst guy cracks me up  get over it the
The twin cams are history  you stated you had on 05 that
Has great numbers.  Let's see 5 or 6 years for twin cam to
Be out. Give the m8 a few years

Nothing to get over. I know you need to push this to make a living, nothing wrong with the concept of 4 valve heads the problem is these M-8 heads are not out performing anything yet. You say wait a few years, you are not waiting a few years until they are figured out and making more power to sell your porting. I am always a customer for more power, offer some actual gains in efficiency and power and I am a customer.

Show us a test with a cam and big bore kit, then pull the heads, port them and retest on the same engine and you will have something. Better yet port a set of stock castings and send them to Durwood so he can dyno them on his test bike and let him post the honest gains. Don't tell us, show us. You can prove just how wrong I am, just send him some ported stock casting that will bolt on his test bike and make 1.2-1.26 HP/CI.

Well my last post involved anatomy, I'll try to keep it out.. You really don't have a clue..

I assume your 1.26 was done at a Dyno shoot out?  How much Disney stock do you own?

[BVHOG]

We have a member here doing testing and sharing the info no charge, whatever the motivation may be. Please don't piss him off, the rest of us would like to hear what he has to say.

Who are you referring to that is doing the testing?
Did you read the OP?

You seem pretty smart......maybe, so I don't think it's a stretch that you know exactly what I am talking about.  Anything we can learn from someone who is actually working on these heads and gives us any info should be more than welcome here. How you filter than info and what you do with it is your choice but has Charlie wronged you some way in the past?  Your replies seem a bit personal.  And anyone can talk peak dyno numbers blah blah blah I made this much power per cube etc. etc.   After tuning and riding literally hundreds of bikes and just about as many different combos I can tell you one fact and that is the dyno doesn't always transfer to the street and just about when you think you have a combo 100% figured out you will find that one exception good or bad.

[1FSTRK]

We have a member here doing testing and sharing the info no charge, whatever the motivation may be. Please don't piss him off, the rest of us would like to hear what he has to say.

Who are you referring to that is doing the testing?
Did you read the OP?

You seem pretty smart......maybe, so I don't think it's a stretch that you know exactly what I am talking about.  Anything we can learn from someone who is actually working on these heads and gives us any info should be more than welcome here. How you filter than info and what you do with it is your choice but has Charlie wronged you some way in the past?  Your replies seem a bit personal.  And anyone can talk peak dyno numbers blah blah blah I made this much power per cube etc. etc.   After tuning and riding literally hundreds of bikes and just about as many different combos I can tell you one fact and that is the dyno doesn't always transfer to the street and just about when you think you have a combo 100% figured out you will find that one exception good or bad.

The OP started this thread not Charlie, I have nothing personal either way and would like to see any real info posted that is on the subject.
A lot of hype and personal agendas here not to mention emotion. We can look at HP/CI, HP/CFM and shape of tq curves, Peak numbers. average numbers, or anything else someone has good data on. You would think I called someones baby ugly the way everyone circles the wagons when I try to talk about the actual gains or lack there of when it comes to these M-8 engines.

Picked up the January east edition of Thunder Press at the local dealer today.  There is an article in there by Kip Woodring basically stating that ported stock M8 heads cannot meet the performance level of the SE heads because the stock ports are too big.  He states that if the ported stockers even came close to the SE heads, that it would involve so much work, that the cost of the ported stockers would exceed that of the SE heads.  I know we have a lot of head porters on here, I was just wondering what you guys think.  Thank you very much!  Merry Christmas all!

[speedzter]

The only crowd that don't know 4v is the HD crowd , everyone else has had them for at least 10 years,shoot the Rolls Royce Merlin(Packard Merlin) engine was a 4 valver in WW2.

Yep, what would HD know about 4 valve heads .
Here's an M8 Harley built just a few years back.
Everything old is new again !!
http://www.harleycitycollection.com.au/?p=201
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3245618

[badcooky]

Awesome link but you know what I meant .
Dang awesome link.

[speedzter]

 

[sfmichael]

The only crowd that don't know 4v is the HD crowd , everyone else has had them for at least 10 years,shoot the Rolls Royce Merlin(Packard Merlin) engine was a 4 valver in WW2.

Yep, what would HD know about 4 valve heads .
Here's an M8 Harley built just a few years back.
Everything old is new again !!
http://www.harleycitycollection.com.au/?p=201
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3245618

beautiful bike 

[1FSTRK]

http://thunderpress.net/editorial/columnists/motorhead-memo-head-stroking/2017/12/12.htm

[DTTJGlide]

So this guy is supposed to be a know it all because he writes for Thunder Press, of course MOCO is going to say that their heads are better & the only possible way you can make power. SBC has already stated that he can make both better air flow & velocity that is equal or better than the CNC version, so what does your article prove. I've seen you rag on the M8 & 4 valve heads multiple times saying they are no better than TC heads & that there aren't any good numbers out there for the M8. How many dyno runs have we seen with ported heads & cams to support them, most of the development so far has been on Stage 2 products as that's most people are looking for. Peak airflow on the M8 heads isn't their strong point, it's the low lift airflow that creates the low end tq that everyone likes. I'm sure we'll see plenty of big HP #s once the builders start to focus on that, but that is still a very small percentage of customers and why that isn't most companies focus right now, they are looking to sell what the most people want to pay for their development costs.

[1FSTRK]

So this guy is supposed to be a know it all because he writes for Thunder Press, of course MOCO is going to say that their heads are better & the only possible way you can make power. SBC has already stated that he can make both better air flow & velocity that is equal or better than the CNC version, so what does your article prove. I've seen you rag on the M8 & 4 valve heads multiple times saying they are no better than TC heads & that there aren't any good numbers out there for the M8. How many dyno runs have we seen with ported heads & cams to support them, most of the development so far has been on Stage 2 products as that's most people are looking for. Peak airflow on the M8 heads isn't their strong point, it's the low lift airflow that creates the low end tq that everyone likes. I'm sure we'll see plenty of big HP #s once the builders start to focus on that, but that is still a very small percentage of customers and why that isn't most companies focus right now, they are looking to sell what the most people want to pay for their development costs.

I have not ragged on anything, just looking honestly at what the top guys in the porting business are posting for results. They all start with ported stock heads and quickly realized it was too big for a 107 so the test bikes all got big inch kits so the numbers would show some reasonable  improvement. Most of what has been done and is for sale supports the statements made in the article and what I have said here from the beginning. You all are not arguing with me you are arguing with simple math and the  results of the people you support.

[DTTJGlide]

Yes you must be right, look at all the people lining up to be on your side

[1FSTRK]

Yes you must be right, look at all the people lining up to be on your side

Going against the group makes you unpopular, it does not make you wrong.
http://hca.gilead.org.il/emperor.html

[sfmichael]

So this guy is supposed to be a know it all because he writes for Thunder Press, of course MOCO is going to say that their heads are better & the only possible way you can make power. SBC has already stated that he can make both better air flow & velocity that is equal or better than the CNC version, so what does your article prove. I've seen you rag on the M8 & 4 valve heads multiple times saying they are no better than TC heads & that there aren't any good numbers out there for the M8. How many dyno runs have we seen with ported heads & cams to support them, most of the development so far has been on Stage 2 products as that's most people are looking for. Peak airflow on the M8 heads isn't their strong point, it's the low lift airflow that creates the low end tq that everyone likes. I'm sure we'll see plenty of big HP #s once the builders start to focus on that, but that is still a very small percentage of customers and why that isn't most companies focus right now, they are looking to sell what the most people want to pay for their development costs.

I have not ragged on anything, just looking honestly at what the top guys in the porting business are posting for results. They all start with ported stock heads and quickly realized it was too big for a 107 so the test bikes all got big inch kits so the numbers would show some reasonable  improvement. Most of what has been done and is for sale supports the statements made in the article and what I have said here from the beginning. You all are not arguing with me you are arguing with simple math and the  results of the people you support.

I, for one, agree with you and the Thunder Press article seems legit, but you know as well as anyone that the facts will ultimately be born out with actual testing.

I have been proven both right and wrong by combinations that looked good or bad on paper - time will tell

[PoorUB]

I have been following along enjoying the thread. I can see the M8 heads should be better. I also get a bit confused as to why the stock M8 is only a few ponies more than the last TC. When talk of the M8 first started I was imagining 120/120 out of the box, but still just a few more ponies than the previous year. I know HD has to deal with EPA, but all manufacturers do.
IMO, the 45 degree, single pin V-twin needs to die and go away.

[rigidthumper]

That's blasphemy!
Say 15 Our Foundry's and give to the poorUB fund

Our Foundry, which art in Milwaukee
Harley be thy name.
Thy V-Twin come, thine oil be done,
On Earl, as it is in Tuning.
Give us this day our daily thread,
and lead us not into politics
but deliver us to the Indys,
for thine is the rumble, and the sound, and the torque,
for ever.  Hey Man!

[Ohio HD]

That's blasphemy!
Say 15 Our Foundry's and give to the poorUB fund

Our Foundry, which art in Milwaukee
Harley be thy name.
Thy V-Twin come, thine oil be done,
On Earl, as it is in Tuning.
Give us this day our daily thread,
and lead us not into politics
but deliver us to the Indys,
for thine is the rumble, and the sound, and the torque,
for ever.  Hey Man!

        You said it brother!!     

[PoorUB]

That's blasphemy!
Say 15 Our Foundry's and give to the poorUB fund

PM me for my Paypal account!!

[SoZo]

That article is poo..... Just conjecture. Same as SBC SE heads were tested... Need further development to know but so far no gains.

They in that article stole pictures of Rick Wards CNC ported head pictures... I'm sure this guy knows more then Rick... (Rick Ward builds TOP FUEL motors...Larry McBride when he was racing and endless other pro stock racers)

I have Ricks complete engineering and machine work here almost ready to go. He has completely flow benched, engineered and machined my M8 setup from air filter to cylinders and rings, did all the boring and honing and finally exhaust specs. I'm a few weeks (waiting on custom Burns Stainless Exhaust) and you will all be saying how great the M8 is, or more accurately how great Rick is.... 

My build is:
SE cylinders board and honed torque plates 120.9ci
CP Pistons and rings end gap set by Ward
Feuling/ARP cylinder studs
Feuling/ARP stainless head bolts
Feuling/ARP rocker studs
Woods 9960 .600 lift cam
Woods Lifters
Woods valve springs titanium keepers.
Aim-Tamachi clutch pressure plate
HD SE clutch plates
7.08 grm/sec injectors

Rick Ward CNC heads with oversized valves Flowing
390cfm intake
266cfm exhaust
Rick Ward CNC SE 64mm intake flowing 350cfm front and rear cylinder.
TMan loss air cleaner (Velocity Stack reworked by Rick)
Feuling Oil Pump on order
Burns NHB Exhaust on order

John

[1FSTRK]

Well John I am sure that combo will be a performer and it maybe that Rick has figured the engines out ( he is more than capable) but at this point your post is conjecture. Once you have the graphs and maybe some time slips it will then become fact. I also notice you have grown the engine to 120.9 CI to better the match the size of the ports and valves of the stock heads.

Great looking combo I for one hope it is the key unlocking true power gains from the 4 valve heads on a Harley.