Dummy Shaft and Endplay

[build it]

So I was studying to see if I could forgo the dummy shaft to set endplay and that is a no go. Apparently if you assembly the bearing to within assembled specification and have to remove them, they must be replaced. So I ordered the Kastar 437 bearing endplay tool. Any issues logically with the above approach, tools, or conclusions drawn?

My questions specific to endplay are:
If endplay is set to higher clearance will the bearing have a higher likelihood to come out of contact with the cup? The application is very heavily loaded, not a heavy bike, but I want to ride it hard.
I've read the threads by the more accomplished members and consensus seems to fall into two camps, set assembled endplay to .001 and move on, or, get the assembled endplay within spec (anywhere within spec) and let it run.

What I'm looking for is why one would purposely set endplay on the higher side, say 3.5-4.5,  and what to look out for to ensure success with this approach?

In my mind, and practice, on a v8, I've set endplay with a higher ceiling when heavily loaded. The tapered bearings are obviously a different animal, especially in a giant hunk of aluminum (case). 

James

[rbabos]

So I was studying to see if I could forgo the dummy shaft to set endplay and that is a no go. Apparently if you assembly the bearing to within assembled specification and have to remove them, they must be replaced. So I ordered the Kastar 437 bearing endplay tool. Any issues logically with the above approach, tools, or conclusions drawn?

My questions specific to endplay are:
If endplay is set to higher clearance will the bearing have a higher likelihood to come out of contact with the cup? The application is very heavily loaded, not a heavy bike, but I want to ride it hard.
I've read the threads by the more accomplished members and consensus seems to fall into two camps, set assembled endplay to .001 and move on, or, get the assembled endplay within spec (anywhere within spec) and let it run.

What I'm looking for is why one would purposely set endplay on the higher side, say 3.5-4.5,  and what to look out for to ensure success with this approach?

In my mind, and practice, on a v8, I've set endplay with a higher ceiling when heavily loaded. The tapered bearings are obviously a different animal, especially in a giant hunk of aluminum (case). 

James

It's called working within a tolerance that will work to save ones sanity. Me, I like .001 but it takes some dinking around to get there. Spacer sanding and such, worst case if you can't get the standard spacers to work. I've found them to not be the most exacting in stated dimensions.  Not something a person on the clock would do. Clearance and end play increase with heat as in the crankcase so if you go to the max end of tolerance, it can get sloppy in my view. That .001 can easily be .0015 and maybe a hair more at engine temps vs room temp install.
Ron

[les]

I can't answer the question directly in terms of what are the risks of setting the FINAL endplay on the higher end (closer to .005").  But I'm not sure if your question is a theoretical discussion or finding out something specific to your task at hand.

Since you have a simulator, you can set, reset, and reset over and over your endplay before the final hard press of bearings on to the sprocket shaft.  Note that (from my personal experience) the bearings tighten up in the range from .0015" - .002" going from the slipfit simulator to the hard press sprocket shaft of the flywheel assembly.  So, if you set your endplay on the simulator at .003", you'll observed the endplay (if you actually measure) on the flywheel assembly to be in the range of .001" - .0015".

My preference (no data to base it on; just a feeling) is I like the FINAL endplay to be .0015".  If I get lucky with my spacers and get that, I'm happy.

[build it]

So I was studying to see if I could forgo the dummy shaft to set endplay and that is a no go. Apparently if you assembly the bearing to within assembled specification and have to remove them, they must be replaced. So I ordered the Kastar 437 bearing endplay tool. Any issues logically with the above approach, tools, or conclusions drawn?

My questions specific to endplay are:
If endplay is set to higher clearance will the bearing have a higher likelihood to come out of contact with the cup? The application is very heavily loaded, not a heavy bike, but I want to ride it hard.
I've read the threads by the more accomplished members and consensus seems to fall into two camps, set assembled endplay to .001 and move on, or, get the assembled endplay within spec (anywhere within spec) and let it run.

What I'm looking for is why one would purposely set endplay on the higher side, say 3.5-4.5,  and what to look out for to ensure success with this approach?

In my mind, and practice, on a v8, I've set endplay with a higher ceiling when heavily loaded. The tapered bearings are obviously a different animal, especially in a giant hunk of aluminum (case). 

James

It's called working within a tolerance that will work to save ones sanity. Me, I like .001 but it takes some dinking around to get there. Spacer sanding and such, worst case if you can't get the standard spacers to work. I've found them to not be the most exacting in stated dimensions.  Not something a person on the clock would do. Clearance and end play increase with heat as in the crankcase so if you go to the max end of tolerance, it can get sloppy in my view. That .001 can easily be .0015 and maybe a hair more at engine temps vs room temp install.
Ron

No sanity left, so I should be good. Btw, I read a lot of your posts on the subject, so you provoked deeper questions. Thank you.

Would you still like thay .001 for a heavily loaded application?

[Thermodyne]

.oo2 plus or minus .ooo5 is what I was taught.  Never did a twin cam, but I have set up Evos and pushed them apart to change the spacer, then reused the bearing.   

[rbabos]

So I was studying to see if I could forgo the dummy shaft to set endplay and that is a no go. Apparently if you assembly the bearing to within assembled specification and have to remove them, they must be replaced. So I ordered the Kastar 437 bearing endplay tool. Any issues logically with the above approach, tools, or conclusions drawn?

My questions specific to endplay are:
If endplay is set to higher clearance will the bearing have a higher likelihood to come out of contact with the cup? The application is very heavily loaded, not a heavy bike, but I want to ride it hard.
I've read the threads by the more accomplished members and consensus seems to fall into two camps, set assembled endplay to .001 and move on, or, get the assembled endplay within spec (anywhere within spec) and let it run.

What I'm looking for is why one would purposely set endplay on the higher side, say 3.5-4.5,  and what to look out for to ensure success with this approach?

In my mind, and practice, on a v8, I've set endplay with a higher ceiling when heavily loaded. The tapered bearings are obviously a different animal, especially in a giant hunk of aluminum (case). 

James

It's called working within a tolerance that will work to save ones sanity. Me, I like .001 but it takes some dinking around to get there. Spacer sanding and such, worst case if you can't get the standard spacers to work. I've found them to not be the most exacting in stated dimensions.  Not something a person on the clock would do. Clearance and end play increase with heat as in the crankcase so if you go to the max end of tolerance, it can get sloppy in my view. That .001 can easily be .0015 and maybe a hair more at engine temps vs room temp install.
Ron

No sanity left, so I should be good. Btw, I read a lot of your posts on the subject, so you provoked deeper questions. Thank you.

Would you still like thay .001 for a heavily loaded application?

Not sure loading is that much consideration . For a decent custom fit, shoot for .001-.002.
Ron

[les]

.oo2 plus or minus .ooo5 is what I was taught.  Never did a twin cam, but I have set up Evos and pushed them apart to change the spacer, then reused the bearing.

IMO, .0015" - .0025" final endplay will work perfect for all applications.  It's the double tapored configuration that provides the additional strength. 

[les]

So I was studying to see if I could forgo the dummy shaft to set endplay and that is a no go. Apparently if you assembly the bearing to within assembled specification and have to remove them, they must be replaced. So I ordered the Kastar 437 bearing endplay tool. Any issues logically with the above approach, tools, or conclusions drawn?

My questions specific to endplay are:
If endplay is set to higher clearance will the bearing have a higher likelihood to come out of contact with the cup? The application is very heavily loaded, not a heavy bike, but I want to ride it hard.
I've read the threads by the more accomplished members and consensus seems to fall into two camps, set assembled endplay to .001 and move on, or, get the assembled endplay within spec (anywhere within spec) and let it run.

What I'm looking for is why one would purposely set endplay on the higher side, say 3.5-4.5,  and what to look out for to ensure success with this approach?

In my mind, and practice, on a v8, I've set endplay with a higher ceiling when heavily loaded. The tapered bearings are obviously a different animal, especially in a giant hunk of aluminum (case). 

James

It's called working within a tolerance that will work to save ones sanity. Me, I like .001 but it takes some dinking around to get there. Spacer sanding and such, worst case if you can't get the standard spacers to work. I've found them to not be the most exacting in stated dimensions.  Not something a person on the clock would do. Clearance and end play increase with heat as in the crankcase so if you go to the max end of tolerance, it can get sloppy in my view. That .001 can easily be .0015 and maybe a hair more at engine temps vs room temp install.
Ron

No sanity left, so I should be good. Btw, I read a lot of your posts on the subject, so you provoked deeper questions. Thank you.

Would you still like thay .001 for a heavily loaded application?

Not sure loading is that much consideration . For a decent custom fit, shoot for .001-.002.
Ron

And is straight forward to achieve when using the simulator.  I recommend setting at .003" on the simulator and in all cases I've done, I've ended up with a happy final endplay on the real sprocket shaft.  Many don't measure the final endplay on the actual flywheels (after doing it on the simulator), but if you do I bet you'll measure an endplay you will be happy with.

[HD/Wrench]

I took an old EVO sprocket shaft turned it on a lathe until the bearing just slips over it . Welded the shaft to a piece of square tubing and now you have a tool. I set it up with case tq the nut down to 50 lbs  ( it does not matter on the tool over 50 )  and once you get your number and lets say it is .005 I will loose .0015 once installed . So my final would be .0035 end play.   Works great you can buy the tool from Jims as well . being that you have a range of end play either way will get you there .

[build it]

I took an old EVO sprocket shaft turned it on a lathe until the bearing just slips over it . Welded the shaft to a piece of square tubing and now you have a tool. I set it up with case tq the nut down to 50 lbs  ( it does not matter on the tool over 50 )  and once you get your number and lets say it is .005 I will loose .0015 once installed . So my final would be .0035 end play.   Works great you can buy the tool from Jims as well . being that you have a range of end play either way will get you there .

I purchased the Kastar 437 bearing endplay tool, should be a decent substitute for fixturing. Minute to minute I change my mind on what to aim for on endplay. I'll probably set it between 2-4 thou. I picked up a few bearing kits, so if I roach one I'll be good.

Waiting on the Jim's puller and I'll be in business.

50lbs seems very low. Have you tested this? I hope so cause I don't want to have to purchase another torque wrench for one process. TIA.

[HD/Wrench]

Yes I have in fact tested the tq figure  50 75 100 125 150 the end play does not change as you are not pressing the bearing onto anything . Its a solid clamp item.. I have also install them them to check end play once done it works great never had a issue with thousands I would think at this point of timken set ups

[build it]

Yes I have in fact tested the tq figure  50 75 100 125 150 the end play does not change as you are not pressing the bearing onto anything . Its a solid clamp item.. I have also install them them to check end play once done it works great never had a issue with thousands I would think at this point of timken set ups

Great dynamic testing Steve.
One follow up question: you obviously keep good records, any discernible difference in bearing wear between loose and tighter clearance?

[rbabos]

I took an old EVO sprocket shaft turned it on a lathe until the bearing just slips over it . Welded the shaft to a piece of square tubing and now you have a tool. I set it up with case tq the nut down to 50 lbs  ( it does not matter on the tool over 50 )  and once you get your number and lets say it is .005 I will loose .0015 once installed . So my final would be .0035 end play.   Works great you can buy the tool from Jims as well . being that you have a range of end play either way will get you there .

I purchased the Kastar 437 bearing endplay tool, should be a decent substitute for fixturing. Minute to minute I change my mind on what to aim for on endplay. I'll probably set it between 2-4 thou. I picked up a few bearing kits, so if I roach one I'll be good.

Waiting on the Jim's puller and I'll be in business.

50lbs seems very low. Have you tested this? I hope so cause I don't want to have to purchase another torque wrench for one process. TIA.

Why would you want .004. Remember on tapered bearing that .004 end play also comes with increased bearing slop, or the amount the crank can jump around in the races and that .004 increases with heat big time. I once measured between cold and medium hot on the hand by heating case with a heat gun and saw a difference close to .0005. The races grow as the case bore heats up. .001-.002 is a better target.
Ron

[HD/Wrench]

Not that I have seen wear wise I shoot for .0025-.003 as the spec is 0-5 but no way to see what is less than zero so really the spec is .0005 to .005 so the 2.5/3 range is where i set them .. This post was beat to death on running it tighter vs loose  and the pro and cons  .. Hell it might have been last winter so I guess it has come around again .

i also feel that the middle of the road spec is better than tighter due to how the interference fit to the race is . The race is round but the case well not so much when compared to how much Run out you have on the race vs case if that makes sense .  The race is stronger enough in static form to hold its own but under stress maybe it can have some deflection.. Maybe maybe not who reallys knows as it nothing that could be tested under normal running conditions that any shop would have  .

Simple answer .0025 and send it

[build it]

I took an old EVO sprocket shaft turned it on a lathe until the bearing just slips over it . Welded the shaft to a piece of square tubing and now you have a tool. I set it up with case tq the nut down to 50 lbs  ( it does not matter on the tool over 50 )  and once you get your number and lets say it is .005 I will loose .0015 once installed . So my final would be .0035 end play.   Works great you can buy the tool from Jims as well . being that you have a range of end play either way will get you there .

I purchased the Kastar 437 bearing endplay tool, should be a decent substitute for fixturing. Minute to minute I change my mind on what to aim for on endplay. I'll probably set it between 2-4 thou. I picked up a few bearing kits, so if I roach one I'll be good.

Waiting on the Jim's puller and I'll be in business.

50lbs seems very low. Have you tested this? I hope so cause I don't want to have to purchase another torque wrench for one process. TIA.

Why would you want .004. Remember on tapered bearing that .004 end play also comes with increased bearing slop, or the amount the crank can jump around in the races and that .004 increases with heat big time. I once measured between cold and medium hot on the hand by heating case with a heat gun and saw a difference close to .0005. The races grow as the case bore heats up. .001-.002 is a better target.
Ron

I haven't made up my mind as of yet. I only have theories on this subject, and I sure no one is interested.  thanks rbabos

[wfolarry]

What would you say if I told you I set them by feel & can't remember the last time I measured one? 

[K4FXD]

 I'd say you have a lot of faith in your "feel"

[FXDBI]

What would you say if I told you I set them by feel & can't remember the last time I measured one? 

Its not your first Rodeo....     Bob

[build it]

What would you say if I told you I set them by feel & can't remember the last time I measured one? 

I'd say 3+ decades and you should have that feel. Me, I need measurements

[Thermodyne]

Just one more little thing.  Those end play numbers are for room temps.  This time of year things can be a bit chilly, and it takes steel forever to warm up to room temps after getting cold.

[build it]

Just one more little thing.  Those end play numbers are for room temps.  This time of year things can be a bit chilly, and it takes steel forever to warm up to room temps after getting cold.

Most of the bike is in my third floor walk up so it should be alright.

[02FYRFTR]

What would you say if I told you I set them by feel & can't remember the last time I measured one? 

Been doing it that way for many, many years without any issues all the way to 131" and 170/170.

[Prostock]

That's how I was taught years ago, but I still measure.

[sfmichael]

What would you say if I told you I set them by feel & can't remember the last time I measured one? 

I'd say you've been doing it a helluva long time 

I'm the same way on a lot of things but make my techs torque / measure whatever. They don't have my level of experience 

[les]

What would you say if I told you I set them by feel & can't remember the last time I measured one? 

I'd say you've been doing it a helluva long time 

I'm the same way on a lot of things but make my techs torque / measure whatever. They don't have my level of experience 

Baker Drivetrain talks about guys like you in their instructions for setting the endplay on their fancy transmission main bearing.  Experience like this is impressive.  I'm not there yet.  I still need to measure.