Harley 4" Steel Liners

[dwjohnson]

 Anyone dared to hone the new tool steel 4" cyls?  Contemplating a .005" oversize since I found a piston. I know it's not advised, that's why I'm asking.

[koko3052]

"A piston"....like in one? Well ....you have 1/2 of a headache ready to surface!

[Timinator]

If someone gave me a new set of pistons .005 over and I had tool steel cylinders, I would go buy new pistons. Those jugs are harder than the hinges of Hell! They are thin enough as it is, and I don't know anyone with the proper stones to hone them, AND the patience to do it correctly. It is a labor intensive job, and you are paying by the hour. Buy pistons. JMHO   TIMINATOR

[1FSTRK]

Please do not take this wrong but if nobody has the proper stones and nobody has tried it how do you know how long it will take and that it is wrong?

If it was a question of replacing the cylinders or trying to hone a set and I had .005 over pistons I would sure give it a try, it is only .0025 on a side and maybe less if the originals were on the loose side and you set the new to spec.

[machinist]

the original bore got honed with a secret NASA machine confiscated from aliens

[prodrag1320]

Anyone dared to hone the new tool steel 4" cyls?  Contemplating a .005" oversize since I found a piston. I know it's not advised, that's why I'm asking.

use a regular sunnen hone,get stones designed to hone hard materials.no big deal

[PoorUB]

I agree, it is not impossible to hone these bores, just questionable if it is worth the time. You should be able hone them with the same stones as cast. I have honed high carbon steel in the past. The bad part with the cylinders will be the thin skirt at the bottom. It will flex if you put too much pressure on the hone.

[HD/Wrench]

I know that the steel liner is new to HD  as a drop in  but its not new by any means in the automotive side .. No special stones needed . Hard material stones   Hone a LS engine hone a harley cylinder . As for going larger . I have not heard of any one trying it .. Does not mean its not been done just that I have not heard of it     5 over is not much.. is this a loose fitment or damage ?

+.005 I would look into Line2line and coat the piston I have done this and it has worked for over a year in my 124 . It was just a test on my part . Still going strong

[aswracing]

Anyone dared to hone the new tool steel 4" cyls?  Contemplating a .005" oversize since I found a piston. I know it's not advised, that's why I'm asking.

use a regular sunnen hone,get stones designed to hone hard materials.no big deal

This is the right answer.

We sold almost 500 hard steel liner engine kits in the last 12 months (XL 1275 application), and we honed every cylinder, and this is how we did it. It's no big deal.

[Timinator]

I have a machine shop; Hot Rods, Harleys, and Hot Boats our card says. We have done many hard automotive blocks and hard Darton steel sleeves, but the spigot is unsupported on the HDs. Also the cylinder top has a lot of fins and is supported well, the spigot, not at all, so the spigot area heats up and distorts with more than a few strokes. Factory does them with diamond sets, dedicated fixturing, and several different grades of diamonds at that. Honing and boring cylinders CORRECTLY is labor intensive as it is, and finding someone that can do it correctly on these hard jugs and hoping for good results without spending more than the new pistons/ rings cost is an iffy proposition. Why bother? That was my ONLY point.  TIMINATOR

[Ohio HD]

I agree with this guys, honing those cylinders to 0.005" is not an issue with a proper honing station. It's metal, and there are stones that can cut it just fine.

I mean, weren't they honed to the size they are now when they were sold?     

[1FSTRK]

I have a machine shop; Hot Rods, Harleys, and Hot Boats our card says. We have done many hard automotive blocks and hard Darton steel sleeves, but the spigot is unsupported on the HDs. Also the cylinder top has a lot of fins and is supported well, the spigot, not at all, so the spigot area heats up and distorts with more than a few strokes. Factory does them with diamond sets, dedicated fixturing, and several different grades of diamonds at that. Honing and boring cylinders CORRECTLY is labor intensive as it is, and finding someone that can do it correctly on these hard jugs and hoping for good results without spending more than the new pistons/ rings cost is an iffy proposition. Why bother? That was my ONLY point.  TIMINATOR

The new cylinder/piston kit is about $1000.00
Why does anyone bore or hone a cylinder over sized, to have a seasoned cylinder, to save buying new cylinders, to get a more precision fit then the mass produced, to fit a new custom piston, My bet is down the road +.005 pistons and the honing service for all these kits HD is selling will be common in many hd performance machine shops. No different than a company that is rebuilding the HD throw away cranks.

[Deye76]

" but the spigot is unsupported on the HDs."

Isn't there a fixture/tool to support the spigot?

[Don D]

My concern is support to the spigot so it doesn't just spring. With 4" stones and no stick out it may be a non-issue. Wouldn't know until I tried a set. I haven't yet

[04 SE Deuce]

the original bore got honed with a secret NASA machine confiscated from aliens

Close,  gremlins not aliens,  and Harley retained a few.

[Timinator]

Gotta have over travel/ stick out to hone evenly to the end of the hole, and tool steel liners are harder than even most Darton sleeves. Harder blocks like mopar 440 take lots longer to hone than chevy blocks (that have less tin and nickel content). The difference in those is only a few brinnel #s different. Tool steel is way harder, so its gonna take longer and use up more vitreous stones to hone it. I have diamond stones in my arsenal of tooling, but with the time involved, TO ME, I don't see Joe off the street paying a reasonable amount for the time and diamonds involved with a competent machinist.
There are always a few guys that will give away a job just to prove that it can be done, but I'm not one of them.  The above post is only my opinion.   TIMINATOR

[PoorUB]

Timinator, I don't think anyone is arguing with you, just commenting that it will be difficult, but not impossible.

[HD/Wrench]

Gotta have over travel/ stick out to hone evenly to the end of the hole, and tool steel liners are harder than even most Darton sleeves. Harder blocks like mopar 440 take lots longer to hone than chevy blocks (that have less tin and nickel content). The difference in those is only a few brinnel #s different. Tool steel is way harder, so its gonna take longer and use up more vitreous stones to hone it. I have diamond stones in my arsenal of tooling, but with the time involved, TO ME, I don't see Joe off the street paying a reasonable amount for the time and diamonds involved with a competent machinist.
There are always a few guys that will give away a job just to prove that it can be done, but I'm not one of them.  The above post is only my opinion.   TIMINATOR



Amen brother those thatdo and those that are nothing short of a key board hero. Not hard to figure it out. We may not be popular but we deal with it on a day to day. I like Darrton over Melli BG in my opinion

[Tattoo]

"Amen brother those thatdo and those that are nothing short of a key board hero. Not hard to figure it out. We may not be popular but we deal with it on a day to day."



Kind of like when the 110" drop on kits first came out and our shop was doing many of them with no issues but yet guys who have never done one said they would fail and HD made a bad product. years later we have over 200 kits either sold over the counter or installed in our service department with nothing but great results. Alot of those kits we used those  Andrews 57H cams that some have never used or put on a dyno or even own a dyno but yet say those cams are no good. The internet can be very resourceful but also can be very misleading. 

[Timinator]

One other thing that has not been touched upon, rings. Make sure that your piston or ring company KNOWS that you are running tool steel jugs. Special rings are required with them. We use Wiseco, and Total Seal (They are in town here and I know peeps there, also been thru their facility and attended seminars there.) I'm not a fan of gapless rings, but they make a ton of other rings for any size, purpose, and custom sizes, usually within a few days. You can call them and get honing and gap info also. You don't have to know everything, but it helps to know people that know what you don't.
Like any other thread, there is some good info and some guesses, your best asset is a good B.S. filter. Nuff said.   TIMINATOR

[kd]

Would a stream of cutting coolant on the spigot stop it from expanding so the cut (when cooled is straighter? I notice real close measurement of the SE 4.060 barrels for example, the lower inch or so is tighter. I'm thinking that it is caused by expansion from heat during machining that when cooled is actually undersize.

[Timinator]

That is from heat and stone pressure, on any thin cylinder, V-8s included, the wall expands away from the stone. Some of the thinwall V-8s, like 400 chevys and even the aftermarket hard 400 blocks and big bore aftermarket big block chevys (as in 4.500-.4600+ bores) you must hone a few strokes and move to another and another, non-adjacent cylinder for a few more strokes. It takes us 3-5 hours to just do the hone on those blocks CORRECTLY so that they are totally round and straight when the are finished.
Our shop standards are 3 ten thousandths or less: top, middle, and bottom for all 8 cylinders. We flood the cylinders with FRESH coolant and that's very important as the sulfur and other EP additives get used up and broken down during use. We also replace all 70 gallons of coolant and both large filters in my Sunnen CV 616 (at $24.70/ gallon and $48.00 for the filters) every year. That is what it takes to keep cylinders round to the tolerances we insist on.
To fix the 572 in my Daytona (that's a boat), I honed it until it was round and straight (at 4.614 bore) then ordered custom JE pistons and Total Seal Classic tool steel rings to fit. There was only about .130 between the cylinders, and the hone took the better part of a day to hold the tolerances we keep.  TIMINATOR

[Don D]

OK let us know how it works out.
As it should be collaborating to advance the development of these motors

[Timinator]

We are currently booked way out on work to take the time to perfect this operation, but I will be keeping my eyes out for a pair of these jugs to experiment on. I have ideas and know I CAN do it, just don't know if it is worthwhile from a time, vs cash, vs replacement cost standpoint.  TIMINATOR

[Don D]

Another concern I have is not just getting them done but they then have to go into a customers engine and work without failure.
Its an experiment. I tried a few like this and will now let others go there first. I don't have a test mule here.