114 M8 vs 110 TC

[NHBagger]

Do you guys feel the performance potential of a 114 M8 will be greater than that what a 110 TC will be able to produce?  Mostly interested in torque and I understand the extra 4 inches will provide 5-6 more ft-lbs of torque.  Seems some of the 110s are pushing 130 ft-lbs, is it possible a 114 could be close to 140?

[1FSTRK]

Maybe some day if someone figures them out, right now they run mid 120's tq and most all of the work seems to start with just making them bigger.

[HD/Wrench]

Great question . Every one is building them and time will show where it all comes together.. Myself if looking for tq would take teh 114 cylinders bore them and jump right to 120 install smaller cam and let the engine build massive tq.. Doing that right now.. the 117 in stock comp form made 130 tq so a 120 with more comp ratio should make close to 140 . Will see  there is data out there filter through it . some is great and some not so great .. 

As for a 114  mild bolt in cam  D&D billet cat made  116/125 . So maybe with a cam that was a bit short and earlier close point loose some Hp gain tq .      Time will tell as more and more shops build these

[hd06myway]

The 4 valve per cyl M8 has much more power potential than anything a TC had...with the right heads to take advantage of those 4 vales ... it'll walk away from any previous Harley motor there's no question about that.  Right now folks are just trying different combos to figure things out.  Like every motor it replaced, Harley's next gen was always a better motor than the one before it....yea yea the Evo simple blah blah blah and never grew past it's birth of 80 C.I.'s... where the TC went from 88" to 120" factory cubic inches... despite all the sky is fallin sumping and fluid transfer issues we hear on the forum, the M8 will reign supreme and to most people who own them, already does....

[1FSTRK]

The 4 valve per cyl M8 has much more power potential than anything a TC had...with the right heads to take advantage of those 4 vales ... it'll walk away from any previous Harley motor there's no question about that.  Right now folks are just trying different combos to figure things out.  Like every motor it replaced, Harley's next gen was always a better motor than the one before it....yea yea the Evo simple blah blah blah and never grew past it's birth of 80 C.I.'s... where the TC went from 88" to 120" factory cubic inches... despite all the sky is fallin sumping and fluid transfer issues we hear on the forum, the M8 will reign supreme and to most people who own them, already does....

Those are the rose colored glasses for most people that drop that kind of money on the new improved toy and all the people that live from selling and fixing them. You keep cheer leading in a dream world and I will keep living in the real world until some one finds a way to make the dreams come true.
Nice looking bikes?     Yep
Nice riding bikes?       Yep
Technological breakthrough in head design capable of living up to the hype or the potential of a good 4 valve design?   
No sign of that yet.   

[badcooky]

The 4 valve per cyl M8 has much more power potential than anything a TC had...with the right heads to take advantage of those 4 vales ... it'll walk away from any previous Harley motor there's no question about that.  Right now folks are just trying different combos to figure things out.  Like every motor it replaced, Harley's next gen was always a better motor than the one before it....yea yea the Evo simple blah blah blah and never grew past it's birth of 80 C.I.'s... where the TC went from 88" to 120" factory cubic inches... despite all the sky is fallin sumping and fluid transfer issues we hear on the forum, the M8 will reign supreme and to most people who own them, already does....

Agreed.

[sfmichael]

The 4 valve per cyl M8 has much more power potential than anything a TC had...with the right heads to take advantage of those 4 vales ... it'll walk away from any previous Harley motor there's no question about that.  Right now folks are just trying different combos to figure things out.  Like every motor it replaced, Harley's next gen was always a better motor than the one before it....yea yea the Evo simple blah blah blah and never grew past it's birth of 80 C.I.'s... where the TC went from 88" to 120" factory cubic inches... despite all the sky is fallin sumping and fluid transfer issues we hear on the forum, the M8 will reign supreme and to most people who own them, already does....

Those are the rose colored glasses for most people that drop that kind of money on the new improved toy and all the people that live from selling and fixing them. You keep cheer leading in a dream world and I will keep living in the real world until some one finds a way to make the dreams come true.
Nice looking bikes?     Yep
Nice riding bikes?       Yep
Technological breakthrough in head design capable of living up to the hype or the potential of a good 4 valve design?   
No sign of that yet.

I agree with both of these posts 

[PoorUB]

The 4 valve per cyl M8 has much more power potential than anything a TC had...with the right heads to take advantage of those 4 vales ... it'll walk away from any previous Harley motor there's no question about that.  Right now folks are just trying different combos to figure things out.  Like every motor it replaced, Harley's next gen was always a better motor than the one before it....yea yea the Evo simple blah blah blah and never grew past it's birth of 80 C.I.'s... where the TC went from 88" to 120" factory cubic inches... despite all the sky is fallin sumping and fluid transfer issues we hear on the forum, the M8 will reign supreme and to most people who own them, already does....

Those are the rose colored glasses for most people that drop that kind of money on the new improved toy and all the people that live from selling and fixing them. You keep cheer leading in a dream world and I will keep living in the real world until some one finds a way to make the dreams come true.
Nice looking bikes?     Yep
Nice riding bikes?       Yep
Technological breakthrough in head design capable of living up to the hype or the potential of a good 4 valve design?   
No sign of that yet.

I agree with both of these posts 

Same here. I know I was not impressed when the M8 came out. My expectations were much higher! I was dreaming about 120 HP stock.

[NHBagger]

  Only I was looking for that kind of torque.

[build it]

The 4 valve per cyl M8 has much more power potential than anything a TC had...with the right heads to take advantage of those 4 vales ... it'll walk away from any previous Harley motor there's no question about that.  Right now folks are just trying different combos to figure things out.  Like every motor it replaced, Harley's next gen was always a better motor than the one before it....yea yea the Evo simple blah blah blah and never grew past it's birth of 80 C.I.'s... where the TC went from 88" to 120" factory cubic inches... despite all the sky is fallin sumping and fluid transfer issues we hear on the forum, the M8 will reign supreme and to most people who own them, already does....

Those are the rose colored glasses for most people that drop that kind of money on the new improved toy and all the people that live from selling and fixing them. You keep cheer leading in a dream world and I will keep living in the real world until some one finds a way to make the dreams come true.
Nice looking bikes?     Yep
Nice riding bikes?       Yep
Technological breakthrough in head design capable of living up to the hype or the potential of a good 4 valve design?   
No sign of that yet.

4 valves might have more potential, once you figure out the garbage geometry, pushrod flex, rocker flex, stand flex, lack of CSA in the port, cams, appropriate compression ratio, etc.

There'll be a development curve longer* than that of prior HD engine iterations.

1FST is right, cube for cube, the twincam is more better.

[sfmichael]

The 4 valve per cyl M8 has much more power potential than anything a TC had...with the right heads to take advantage of those 4 vales ... it'll walk away from any previous Harley motor there's no question about that.  Right now folks are just trying different combos to figure things out.  Like every motor it replaced, Harley's next gen was always a better motor than the one before it....yea yea the Evo simple blah blah blah and never grew past it's birth of 80 C.I.'s... where the TC went from 88" to 120" factory cubic inches... despite all the sky is fallin sumping and fluid transfer issues we hear on the forum, the M8 will reign supreme and to most people who own them, already does....

Those are the rose colored glasses for most people that drop that kind of money on the new improved toy and all the people that live from selling and fixing them. You keep cheer leading in a dream world and I will keep living in the real world until some one finds a way to make the dreams come true.
Nice looking bikes?     Yep
Nice riding bikes?       Yep
Technological breakthrough in head design capable of living up to the hype or the potential of a good 4 valve design?   
No sign of that yet.

4 valves might have more potential, once you figure out the garbage geometry, pushrod flex, rocker flex, stand flex, lack of CSA in the port, cams, appropriate compression ratio, etc.

There'll be a development curve lol never than that of prior HD engine iterations.

1FST is right, cube for cube, the twincam is more better.

At this point in time it is undoubtedly better...but it's also had the benefit of almost 20 years of development

The M8 has been out for 2 years...by 2020 (or so) I bet it will catch up

[Thermodyne]

As a production motor the M8 makes better power.  But once you start swapping parts, the M8 isn't there yet.

At some point people will get the M8 lower end sorted out, but I suspect there will be M8 style heads for twin cams by then. 

[TorQuePimp]

There's already 4 valve heads for twin cams.....had them for Evo as well.

We've mistaken a four valve head with 2 sparkplugs as being a performance advantage in a v twin tractor engine.....it still isn't
Change for the sake of change and meeting emissions.....the mistake 8 is
Nothing more

[sfmichael]

There's already 4 valve heads for twin cams.....had them for Evo as well.

We've mistaken a four valve head with 2 sparkplugs as being a performance advantage in a v twin tractor engine.....it still isn't
Change for the sake of change and meeting emissions.....the mistake 8 is
Nothing more

Nothing wrong with 4 valve heads...good flowing heads make the power, however you get there...but seeing these new heads as the key to unlocking huge power is just not realistic. Too many good 2 valve heads out there for twin cams and even stock heads can be modified to make big power.
These new motors will get there, but I'm in no hurry to jump the TC ship. The Twin Cam is capable of making way more power than the chassis can effectively handle.
I'd like to see HD put some serious effort into suspension and weight reduction

[PoorUB]

I'd like to see HD put some serious effort into suspension and weight reduction

Sorry,  I couldn't help myself!

[hd06myway]

There's already 4 valve heads for twin cams.....had them for Evo as well.

We've mistaken a four valve head with 2 sparkplugs as being a performance advantage in a v twin tractor engine.....it still isn't
Change for the sake of change and meeting emissions.....the mistake 8 is
Nothing more

Nothing wrong with 4 valve heads...good flowing heads make the power, however you get there...but seeing these new heads as the key to unlocking huge power is just not realistic. Too many good 2 valve heads out there for twin cams and even stock heads can be modified to make big power.
These new motors will get there, but I'm in no hurry to jump the TC ship. The Twin Cam is capable of making way more power than the chassis can effectively handle.
I'd like to see HD put some serious effort into suspension and weight reduction

They did it's called the Milwaukee 8 ...    yea the TC's been around a long time but it won't take long for folks who are looking to hop up the engines to figure it out.... if H-D made 120hp out of the box it wouldn't be enough for the gear heads.... personally, I'm happy with stock which is probably why I never have any issues with my Harley's, my '06 TC Softail, I've never had to change a light bulb on it.... more reliable than any auto I'ved ever owned... and my Evo slightly modified never left me on the side of the road either...  one thing the M8 (Softails) can do right now over the TC is run circles around it... I'm not a straight line guy, if my bike doesn't handle, like say a 250mm rear tire chopper, no matter how big the engine is or how "fast" it is,  I've never give them the time of the day... I've seen those people going 5 mph getting on and off interstate ramps... hilarious,  the bikes take square corners...

[doubletrouble]

You see someone doing 5 mph getting on or off freeway - that's a rider ability issue - not a chop issue.

[bxbutch]

250mm tire is good for going straight Butch

[brokenwing]

  :up:o

You see someone doing 5 mph getting on or off freeway - that's a rider ability issue - not a chop issue.

[sfmichael]

I'd like to see HD put some serious effort into suspension and weight reduction

Sorry,  I couldn't help myself!

You gotta let a guy dream 

[hd06myway]

You see someone doing 5 mph getting on or off freeway - that's a rider ability issue - not a chop issue.

most "chop" riders can't ride anyway, that's why there on poser bikes... 

[K4FXD]

I personally think the M8 is a stepping stone to a split pin crank, totally water cooled engine. The 4 valve heads already out flow the RPM potential of the "tractor" engine, or a better description is an air compressor with fuel and spark.

The traditional sound is almost gone so why stick with a single pin and low RPM. Once the bottom end can take 8 to 10,000 RPM consistently the 4 valve head will out perform any prior HD engine.

Then HD will have to address the handling issues.

[Jim Bronson]

You see someone doing 5 mph getting on or off freeway - that's a rider ability issue - not a chop issue.

If riders can't exit a freeway at 35+, they had better take some lessons (especially in SoCal).

[Hossamania]

I personally think the M8 is a stepping stone to a split pin crank, totally water cooled engine. The 4 valve heads already out flow the RPM potential of the "tractor" engine, or a better description is an air compressor with fuel and spark.

The traditional sound is almost gone so why stick with a single pin and low RPM. Once the bottom end can take 8 to 10,000 RPM consistently the 4 valve head will out perform any prior HD engine.

Then HD will have to address the handling issues.

I was going to say I would really like to see that, but they already did it.
It was called the VRod.

[sfmichael]

I personally think the M8 is a stepping stone to a split pin crank, totally water cooled engine. The 4 valve heads already out flow the RPM potential of the "tractor" engine, or a better description is an air compressor with fuel and spark.

The traditional sound is almost gone so why stick with a single pin and low RPM. Once the bottom end can take 8 to 10,000 RPM consistently the 4 valve head will out perform any prior HD engine.

Then HD will have to address the handling issues.

I was going to say I would really like to see that, but they already did it.
It was called the VRod.

Yep   

[shovelbill]

I personally think the M8 is a stepping stone to a split pin crank, totally water cooled engine. The 4 valve heads already out flow the RPM potential of the "tractor" engine, or a better description is an air compressor with fuel and spark.

The traditional sound is almost gone so why stick with a single pin and low RPM. Once the bottom end can take 8 to 10,000 RPM consistently the 4 valve head will out perform any prior HD engine.

Then HD will have to address the handling issues.

mayhaps the MoCo should have talked to Vern Ott........he came up with a crank in or around 1980........i've seen the original shovel version of this. .....my friend Dave owns it.......

here's some reading if you're not familiar with Mr. Ott.
https://www.baggersmag.com/different-type-v-twin

http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/pp158/shovelbill/Daves%20visit/IMG_20120728_140839.jpg

http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/pp158/shovelbill/Daves%20visit/IMG_20120728_141220.jpg

[Ohio HD]

I personally think the M8 is a stepping stone to a split pin crank, totally water cooled engine. The 4 valve heads already out flow the RPM potential of the "tractor" engine, or a better description is an air compressor with fuel and spark.

The traditional sound is almost gone so why stick with a single pin and low RPM. Once the bottom end can take 8 to 10,000 RPM consistently the 4 valve head will out perform any prior HD engine.

Then HD will have to address the handling issues.

mayhaps the MoCo should have talked to Vern Ott........he came up with a crank in or around 1980........i've seen the original shovel version of this. .....my friend Dave owns it.......

here's some reading if you're not familiar with Mr. Ott.
https://www.baggersmag.com/different-type-v-twin

http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/pp158/shovelbill/Daves%20visit/IMG_20120728_140839.jpg

http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/pp158/shovelbill/Daves%20visit/IMG_20120728_141220.jpg

He did indeed have a good idea. I think where the potential short comings were the way the pistons were designed, and the way the rods worked with them. They had an offset design, putting the rods out of center of the pistons. This required a three point cam ground piston shape, instead of conventional two point cam ground pistons. It was a strongly built motor, a shame the development didn't continue.

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[bxbutch]

Maybe some day we will see it happen but I dont know if it will be in my time so ill just have to make due with whats available Butch

[K4FXD]

Reason I think what I said.

The EPA is going to force the MoCo's hand and they will have to ditch the air cooled engine. The VROD is a great engine and I'd love to see it in a touring frame but  think HD is committed to  keeping the 45 degree design, So split pin 45 degree V twin water cooled.

I'd like to see them open it up to 50 degrees, no one would really notice and would have room for a better intake.

[Geezer_Glider]

Well Yamaha just came out with the new V-twin AIR COOLED touring rig. Don't count on Harley getting away from what they are now using for some time to come. Maybe something on the side like Buell or V-Rod, but they already tried that.
Just saying,
R Meyer

[K4FXD]

I'm thinking long term, like when all us geezers are gone.

They never gave the V-ROD a chance. I know many who say they would have bought that engine in a touring rig.

The Dealers killed Buel. Anytime I asked about one I got sneers and statements like, oh one of those, here try a sportster.

[K4FXD]

First I have hears about Vern Ott's design, but I have wondered for years why that design wasn't being used. I guess he and I think alike, only he had the money to make it happen.