Primary Chains - the Good, the Bad, and the Broken

[Ohio HD]

So not to detract too far from Ed's post on his unfortunate circumstances of primary housing carnage,  I thought that I would start a primary chain thread. Essentially Big Twin bikes, as this is the most popular engine and platform out there at this time. But other bikes that have had primary chain issues are welcome for discussion.

Below are the Twin Cam primary chain sizes
428-2 x 76 - 99-06 FLT/ FXR/ FXRS/ FXRT
428-2 x 82 - 99-06 Big Twin, 00-06 FXST/ FLST and 99-05 Dyna
428-2 x 86 - 07-18 Touring
428-2 x 92 - 06-17 Dyna, 07-17 Softail

What I'd like to see posted is guys that have broken the chain, and under what circumstances, and was the chain believed to be the root cause of it's own damage, and any other damage. Or what there another failure that took the primary chain with it. I know in some cases who knows, too much damage to know what let go first. What was the method of chain tension, manual or automatic, what were the circumstances of riding, IE: racing, cruising along, etc.

Just for the heck of it, I reached out to Evolution Industries to ask them about primary chains, their take on them. What I was told was that they use both Regina (OEM made in Italy) and Diamond (used to be OEM and made in USA). I asked him if there was a preference between them based on strength? He said and I quote "Regina is just as good as the diamond. Diamond are American made so they cost more." I realize this is one guys opinion, and I'm not saying he's wrong or right, just this was his opinion, neither right or wrong. The info quest needs to start somewhere, so I asked them.

I've personally run a lot of both over the years, OEM Regina and OEM / Aftermarket Diamond, and have not broken one yet, but then I don't drag race, nor do I do big burnouts. I do run the motors hard, and shift hard under power.

Years ago when I was in the motorcycle business, I used and sold primarily (pun intended) Diamond and Tsubaki. Tsubaki was used on two of my bikes, a 98" Shovel and a 98" Evo. They cost more, and very few guys really wanted or needed to spend more. Tsubaki was however touted as being the stronger chain. So this took me on a short quest to see if Tsubaki was still available as a Harley primary chain. The short amount I looked only unearthed a few European sites that had them listed for the older 4 speed bikes. Tsubaki also does not show them on their web site. So I sent an email to them and am now waiting to hear back, to see if they still do supply them, or can they.

So what are your bad experiences, and how did it break? Do you know of any other primary chain out there?

[No Cents]

    Brian...I know TR (Tman) had a primary chain failure on his procharged bike. It was a like a 200 hp bike.
It might be worth making a phone call to him to see what he exactly found out...and what chain he is running now. My guess is he researched the hell out of primary chains after his failure happened.

[Ohio HD]

Actually I just found a site in Europe that show an 86 link Tsubaki for a late model TC six speed. Interesting, so they have or do make them for later models. Exchange price would be about $92.00 US.


Zodiac Catalog Primary Drive Chain

[Ohio HD]

    Brian...I know TR (Tman) had a primary chain failure on his procharged bike. It was a like a 200 hp bike.
It might be worth making a phone call to him to see what he exactly found out...and what chain he is running now. My guess is he researched the hell out of primary chains after his failure happened.

I wonder if he did use any alternative. I know Jim is right around the 180 HP area, and a far as I know he's running a stock chain. He did crack his clutch basket last summer, and now has a Barnett (Evo Ind.) basket on his OEM ring gear.

[ecir50]

428-2 x 76  drag specialties says made in Italy, probably a Regina?

[Ohio HD]

428-2 x 76  drag specialties says made in Italy, probably a Regina?

Yes, they are to my knowledge.

[Ohio HD]

This is what they told me at Tsubaki just a minute ago. They no longer are in the motorcycle chain business. Explains why I haven't seen them for a awhile.

Hello Brian,

Thank you for your inquiry.
Tsubaki no longer manufactures motorcycle chains.

LuAnn

[No Cents]

  I know the fix...so kick me for saying it out loud. 
Just do a Bandit belt drive primary...and all the primary side issues will go away. But damn they are expensive.

[Hybredhog]

  I know the fix...so kick me for saying it out loud. 
Just do a Bandit belt drive primary...and all the primary side issues will go away. But damn they are expensive.

    A 3 inch belt is not a viable option for most people or any stock style primary. Belt systems that do fit into a stock primary, AKA 1.5" wouldn't stand a chance against 200hp, so chains are the only viable option until they come out with some carbon fiber or whatever alternative. As for a chain breaking under such loads, I'd still say its the exception, rather than the rule, and if people are going to play in that arena, they'll have to pay the piper. I would say that a tension system built for such bikes would go a long ways in prevention of failures, and a shock absorbing type "like" a M6 would help. Even better would be a full gear drive system.

[Ohio HD]

  I know the fix...so kick me for saying it out loud. 
Just do a Bandit belt drive primary...and all the primary side issues will go away. But damn they are expensive.

    A 3 inch belt is not a viable option for most people or any stock style primary. Belt systems that do fit into a stock primary, AKA 1.5" wouldn't stand a chance against 200hp, so chains are the only viable option until they come out with some carbon fiber or whatever alternative. As for a chain breaking under such loads, I'd still say its the exception, rather than the rule, and if people are going to play in that arena, they'll have to pay the piper. I would say that a tension system built for such bikes would go a long ways in prevention of failures, and a shock absorbing type "like" a M6 would help. Even better would be a full gear drive system.

And I agree, most and that probably includes me will not ever have that issue to deal with, the chain breaking, but one never knows until it happens. This is just an exercise to understand the cause, and is there a chain alternative that is stronger, given the same link sizes.
 

[04 SE Deuce]

Not to hijack but I have a few NOS OEM Diamond 40007-36 chains from the 70's.  I wonder how they compare to current stuff?  Seemed to me like they stretched more under less power back then. 

[Ohio HD]

I don't know Rick, they may have been designed around the 55HP the old girls had back in the day. In any case, breaking them is definitely feeding them more than they are designed for. Speaking of that, Diamond just responded to me. And by the way, I really like companies that respond in a timely manor when you contact them.

Where he makes reference to a chain link, he either isn't real familiar with the HD primary chain, or he is very familiar with them, and remembers way back when you could buy them that way. I think for the 45's, maybe others too.

No stronger available from Diamond.


Brian,

Thank you for your interest in The Diamond Chain Company.

You are correct, Diamond used to be the OEM for Harley. Unfortunately, there is not a "heavier" duty chain option that is available for that specific chain size. Your best bet to obtain the most strength and integrity would be to make sure your chain is riveted endless, without a connecting link. Standard Connecting Links reduce the chain by about 1/3.


Thank you again,


Kevin Welsh
Product Design Engineer
The Diamond Chain Company

[Jonny Cash]

My OE chain failed last year.  It happened on the 1-2 shift @ the track.  It took out my inner, and my Evo basket, from the basket grinding against broken chain.  I went back with the Diamond, it lasted for 11 passes and a couple hundred street miles. It stretched incredibly, to the point I didn't trust it, it would stand up on its own.  I went back with another OE chain and it is holding up well, although when it went in I did change to a solid front sprocket.   I ordered an RK chain to keep as a spare for the track, Drag carries it.  I now check mine after every weekend of track time.  My OE chain had 35k miles on it, and it is abused regularly, I accept as  a cost of racing a heavy bike with a heavy rider.  Pic of the diamond chain when I took it out

[Ohio HD]

I actually did think to call RK right after lunch, that's when they open being out west. The guy was pretty helpful, but told me they show nothing about a primary chain application for HD's. He did say that it was possible someone was importing them direct from RK, and they don't go through RM Excel America. Now that you mention Drag Specialties, they're probably big enough to do that, get them direct.

Would you happen to have the Drag Specialty or RK number from the box?

[Jonny Cash]

I actually did think to call RK right after lunch, that's when they open being out west. The guy was pretty helpful, but told me they show nothing about a primary chain application for HD's. He did say that it was possible someone was importing them direct from RK, and they don't go through RM Excel America. Now that you mention Drag Specialties, they're probably big enough to do that, get them direct.

Would you happen to have the Drag Specialty or RK number from the box?

http://www.dragspecialties.com/products/?productId=477463

[Ohio HD]

I actually did think to call RK right after lunch, that's when they open being out west. The guy was pretty helpful, but told me they show nothing about a primary chain application for HD's. He did say that it was possible someone was importing them direct from RK, and they don't go through RM Excel America. Now that you mention Drag Specialties, they're probably big enough to do that, get them direct.

Would you happen to have the Drag Specialty or RK number from the box?

http://www.dragspecialties.com/products/?productId=477463

Thanks Kelly, I may have to give one a try. I'm going back to 46 tooth clutch basket gearing on my 124, and that would be a good time to try one. I have an RK going on the rear when the swingarm gets here. And I've used RK -rings chains in the past and never had issues, so I do like the brand.

[Jonny Cash]

I actually did think to call RK right after lunch, that's when they open being out west. The guy was pretty helpful, but told me they show nothing about a primary chain application for HD's. He did say that it was possible someone was importing them direct from RK, and they don't go through RM Excel America. Now that you mention Drag Specialties, they're probably big enough to do that, get them direct.

Would you happen to have the Drag Specialty or RK number from the box?

http://www.dragspecialties.com/products/?productId=477463

Thanks Kelly, I may have to give one a try. I'm going back to 46 tooth clutch basket gearing on my 124, and that would be a good time to try one. I have an RK going on the rear when the swingarm gets here. And I've used RK -rings chains in the past and never had issues, so I do like the brand.

I'm running their drag rear chain, its a bear, does not stretch, that's why I'm giving it a try. I used to run a DID ZVMX, best Oring chain out there in my opinion.  When I went to a 180 rear tire it wouldn't clear.  The non O ring chain does have much less drag.

[Ohio HD]

I actually did think to call RK right after lunch, that's when they open being out west. The guy was pretty helpful, but told me they show nothing about a primary chain application for HD's. He did say that it was possible someone was importing them direct from RK, and they don't go through RM Excel America. Now that you mention Drag Specialties, they're probably big enough to do that, get them direct.

Would you happen to have the Drag Specialty or RK number from the box?

http://www.dragspecialties.com/products/?productId=477463

Thanks Kelly, I may have to give one a try. I'm going back to 46 tooth clutch basket gearing on my 124, and that would be a good time to try one. I have an RK going on the rear when the swingarm gets here. And I've used RK -rings chains in the past and never had issues, so I do like the brand.

I'm running their drag rear chain, its a bear, does not stretch, that's why I'm giving it a try. I used to run a DID ZVMX, best Oring chain out there in my opinion.  When I went to a 180 rear tire it wouldn't clear.  The non O ring chain does have much less drag.

That sounds very encouraging.

I just ordered a 1120-0340 to give it a whirl.

[jam65]

While on the subject, is it possible to drop a link off of a primary chain?

[Ohio HD]

I don't have an experienced answer for that. But I would imagine if you can get a 'new' uncrimped link for the chain, to reassemble it, it could be done.

[kd]

1 link is a large change (2 rollers). Half links are a lesser evil. I used to find the half link was the most useful.

[Thermodyne]

I use some 74 pitch chains on FXR's and older baggers.  And the last two that I bought said made in Italia on them.  It's nothing special, just double strand chain. 

With that said.  When I did my own, I just took the chain to the roller chain supplier and they cut it down.  It was way cheaper than buying a new one, $18. 

[koko3052]

I use some 74 pitch chains on FXR's and older baggers.  And the last two that I bought said made in Italia on them.  It's nothing special, just double strand chain. 

With that said.  When I did my own, I just took the chain to the roller chain supplier and they cut it down.  It was way cheaper than buying a new one, $18.

And how were the ends fastened together?

[N-gin]

I actually did think to call RK right after lunch, that's when they open being out west. The guy was pretty helpful, but told me they show nothing about a primary chain application for HD's. He did say that it was possible someone was importing them direct from RK, and they don't go through RM Excel America. Now that you mention Drag Specialties, they're probably big enough to do that, get them direct.

Would you happen to have the Drag Specialty or RK number from the box?

http://www.dragspecialties.com/products/?productId=477463

I may have missed this, but just to clarify The link in the tread is for the 35 series chains, correct? And the 428 is?

[turboprop]

Anyone ever heard of Duckworth brand primary chains?

I was going through my inventory of primary chains yesterday and was surprised to see Duckworth 0515 USA stamped on the side of three of them. The chains are all in very good/excellent condition and had come from later model 5-speed baggers. Not sure when harley changed their source of supply to Regina but it had to have been sometime after '98 as everyone one of these chains came with a '98 and up clutch that I purchased.

A quick google search shows the company shut down a few years ago.

[klammer76]

Anyone ever heard of Duckworth brand primary chains?

I was going through my inventory of primary chains yesterday and was surprised to see Duckworth 0515 USA stamped on the side of three of them. The chains are all in very good/excellent condition and had come from later model 5-speed baggers. Not sure when harley changed their source of supply to Regina but it had to have been sometime after '98 as everyone one of these chains came with a '98 and up clutch that I purchased.

A quick google search shows the company shut down a few years ago.

I do recall Duckworth. Can't remember if from my Shovelhead days or early FXR's around the early 1980's?

[Ohio HD]

I've heard of the brand, I have glimses of seeing it in a Panhead manual. I'll look later.

[Buglet]

   Back in the day harley used duckworth for the primary and the rear chain you were able to order a duckworth on a diamond, each had there own part #.

[Ohio HD]

Here's a reference to them '36 to '64 Panhead in the Tedd's book.

You cannot view this attachment.[/attach]

[turboprop]

Well I have three of them that came out of '98 and newer 5-speed baggers. Surprised that I cannot find any reference to how they perform, good or bad. I would have thought with all of the harley forums, and depth of minutia that members will dive into that there would have been more chatter. I guess no news is good news when it comes to primary chains.

[Ohio HD]

Yeah my memory to the name was a long time ago, from a service manual. When I was into working on bikes everyday, through the 90's Diamond was mostly what we used for replacement. Duckworth must have been the original to when ever OEM for HD.

[Ohio HD]

I'm sure I remember seeing the name on the chain it's self, but one doesn't generally remember small details like this well, at least I don't.




You cannot view this attachment.]

[turboprop]

It looks like a pretty good chain. They wont be going into any of my 124" FXRs but if my bagger needed a new chain, I would not hesitate to put one of these in. Heck, these might be the best primary chain ever.

I wonder why Duckworth closed. Was it like what happened to Cycle Shack exhaust pipes where harley changed manufacturers to reduce costs and ultimately caused CS to go out of business or maybe something internal at Duckworth and harley had to find another source?

[Ohio HD]

My honest guess would be more competition from imported sources. I would bet that most chain manufactures, at least in the past makes their money on industries applications. Farm equipment, factory equipment, etc. More and more pneumatic and hydraulics, as well as liner drive is used in newer factory equipment. The more simple things, and heavier applications still use chains. We went away from them and use poly belts, faster, quieter, and need next to no maintenance.

[PoorUB]

Turbo, that might be. A vendor puts darned near all thier eggs in one basket, manufacturing parts for one company. The manufacturer changes vendors and they can not down size financially and pull the plug. It happens fairly often.

I read an article about a supplier for Walmart. Walmart dropped them and they had a huge investment in inventory to meet the demand that just stopped instantly. Next stop, bankruptcy.

[turboprop]

So, now I cant help but think my Duckworth primary chains are worth more now than they were last week. If Harley dropped them to save money, it stands to reason that these chains could be of higher quality that the current harley (Regina) chain, that some have reported (but not quantified) as being superior to the aftermarket offerings from Diamond and others. Just thinking out loud here, but I may have just saved myself about $75 on a new chain.

[Jonny Cash]

So, now I cant help but think my Duckworth primary chains are worth more now than they were last week. If Harley dropped them to save money, it stands to reason that these chains could be of higher quality that the current harley (Regina) chain, that some have reported (but not quantified) as being superior to the aftermarket offerings from Diamond and others. Just thinking out loud here, but I may have just saved myself about $75 on a new chain.

That's good stuff.  I had to borrow a chain last year to make a race, it was a Duckworth, came out of a 93 FXR.  maybe it had been replaced at some point

[SixShooter14]

So, now I cant help but think my Duckworth primary chains are worth more now than they were last week. If Harley dropped them to save money, it stands to reason that these chains could be of higher quality that the current harley (Regina) chain, that some have reported (but not quantified) as being superior to the aftermarket offerings from Diamond and others. Just thinking out loud here, but I may have just saved myself about $75 on a new chain.

what's the standard inspection method for used primary chains? Typically we measure roller chains for a certain amount of stretch as a percentage of spec length. Say 3%, so a 5000mm chain is allowed to reach 5150mm before replacement.

Is there a standard stretch limit for P-chains? And is it a pretty good indicator of life remaining on a used chain? 

[Ohio HD]

So, now I cant help but think my Duckworth primary chains are worth more now than they were last week. If Harley dropped them to save money, it stands to reason that these chains could be of higher quality that the current harley (Regina) chain, that some have reported (but not quantified) as being superior to the aftermarket offerings from Diamond and others. Just thinking out loud here, but I may have just saved myself about $75 on a new chain.

what's the standard inspection method for used primary chains? Typically we measure roller chains for a certain amount of stretch as a percentage of spec length. Say 3%, so a 5000mm chain is allowed to reach 5150mm before replacement.

Is there a standard stretch limit for P-chains? And is it a pretty good indicator of life remaining on a used chain? 

That would be a question for the manufacturer of the chain. HD uses an adjustment, I've never seen any spec on stretch in a service manual.

[SixShooter14]

So, now I cant help but think my Duckworth primary chains are worth more now than they were last week. If Harley dropped them to save money, it stands to reason that these chains could be of higher quality that the current harley (Regina) chain, that some have reported (but not quantified) as being superior to the aftermarket offerings from Diamond and others. Just thinking out loud here, but I may have just saved myself about $75 on a new chain.

what's the standard inspection method for used primary chains? Typically we measure roller chains for a certain amount of stretch as a percentage of spec length. Say 3%, so a 5000mm chain is allowed to reach 5150mm before replacement.

Is there a standard stretch limit for P-chains? And is it a pretty good indicator of life remaining on a used chain? 

That would be a question for the manufacturer of the chain. HD uses an adjustment, I've never seen any spec on stretch in a service manual.

According to Regina:
http://www.reginachain.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/03_Maintenance.pdf#page=3

[Ohio HD]

So, now I cant help but think my Duckworth primary chains are worth more now than they were last week. If Harley dropped them to save money, it stands to reason that these chains could be of higher quality that the current harley (Regina) chain, that some have reported (but not quantified) as being superior to the aftermarket offerings from Diamond and others. Just thinking out loud here, but I may have just saved myself about $75 on a new chain.

what's the standard inspection method for used primary chains? Typically we measure roller chains for a certain amount of stretch as a percentage of spec length. Say 3%, so a 5000mm chain is allowed to reach 5150mm before replacement.

Is there a standard stretch limit for P-chains? And is it a pretty good indicator of life remaining on a used chain? 

That would be a question for the manufacturer of the chain. HD uses an adjustment, I've never seen any spec on stretch in a service manual.

According to Regina:
http://www.reginachain.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/03_Maintenance.pdf#page=3

I'm not going to read through all of that, I'll take their word. But I imagine that there is a difference depending on the chains actual size and type as to what is safe, as well as the application it's being used in. As well they were referring to a single row chain used on the rear wheel. Does the double or triple row primary chains work under the same specs? I don't know.

[Hybredhog]

  Back in the day... I mean Shovelheads & FXR's, Duckworth were very common. As my personal observations go, Duckworth stretched less than a Diamond, and didn't split rollers like I seen a lot of diamonds do. I still run into quite a few, and for older Evos they're very stable adjustment wise, and settle in well. That being said, on & in about the early 90's HD started using diamonds, and it became very obvious(especially on softails), that they were stretching at a more rapid rate, & maxing out the adjuster ramp. In recent years I've had good luck with Drag's house brand, but I don't have one in stock right now to see where it came from, But Regina comes to mind.

[Ohio HD]

My understanding is also that Diamond has in the past, and maybe now also supplied chains with a split roller, and some with a solid roller. I looked at the chain I received from Evo Industries when I put that chain and basket in my bike. It's a solid roller chain. I have not personally seen a split roller chain in an HD. But have been told there have been some.

[turboprop]

My understanding is also that Diamond has in the past, and maybe now also supplied chains with a split roller, and some with a solid roller. I looked at the chain I received from Evo Industries when I put that chain and basket in my bike. It's a solid roller chain. I have not personally seen a split roller chain in an HD. But have been told there have been some.

FWIW - The Duckworth chains that I have are all solid roller type.

[Hybredhog]

    Sorry, I need to clarify, when I said "split roller", I meant that the rollers would split in half broken. I don't think you'll see any chain of Quality with non-solid rollers, but in cheapo's & smaller sizes they're around.

[Ohio HD]

I see what you mean. But I have heard that there have been some made this way, but not that I ever saw. It would be scary to think they an change shape while running. 

[04 SE Deuce]

Harley used both Diamond and Duckworth in the 70's.  I really don't remember a preference on the big twin primary chains but in rear drive chains Diamond seemed to be a better chain...this is in reference to the OEM Harley chain/part not aftermarket chain which often was not as quality.

[Thermodyne]

I use some 74 pitch chains on FXR's and older baggers.  And the last two that I bought said made in Italia on them.  It's nothing special, just double strand chain. 

With that said.  When I did my own, I just took the chain to the roller chain supplier and they cut it down.  It was way cheaper than buying a new one, $18.

And how were the ends fastened together?

The tech cut the heads off two pins, pressed them out and removed two links, then replaced the pin and expanded the ends of the pin. He just used a pin that was the correct diameter and cut it to the length he needed.  It was prolly 8 inches to start with.  They could have done it with a pin that used little cotter pins, but I didn't want that.  The chain size is not something they work with much, but the tandem links aren't uncommon.  Evidently they are used in industrial equipment and pump couplings.     

[jam65]

The reason I asked about the removal of a link was because of my primary gearing. With the Baker chain adjuster,my primary chain is almost maxed out to the top of adjustment. I would like a straighter snake of the chain for better efficiency and adjustability.

[turboprop]

The reason I asked about the removal of a link was because of my primary gearing. With the Baker chain adjuster,my primary chain is almost maxed out to the top of adjustment. I would like a straighter snake of the chain for better efficiency and adjustability.

Would be easier to simply go up a tooth (or two) inside the primary and make whatever adjustment in the secondary drive ratio to compensate.

[jam65]

Unless someone offers a comp sprocket other than the Evo with more teeth, I'm kind of stuck at this point.

[turboprop]

Unless someone offers a comp sprocket other than the Evo with more teeth, I'm kind of stuck at this point.

You are currently running a 25/36 combination inside your primary?

[koko3052]

The reason I asked about the removal of a link was because of my primary gearing. With the Baker chain adjuster,my primary chain is almost maxed out to the top of adjustment. I would like a straighter snake of the chain for better efficiency and adjustability.

Maybe your chain is at the end of it's lifespan? I have typically taken a manufacturers adjustment span as the max chain lifespan.

[jam65]

I have a 30 tooth Evo comp sprocket and their 49 tooth clutch basket. Final chain drive sprocket is from Baker and the only one with the offset that I need for the custom spacing of the Performance Drive sprocket that is still holding up. I really don't want to replace that sprocket until it is toast.
Primary chain is basically new and was almost out of adjustment when installed with 92 links.

[Ohio HD]

Have you possibly asked at Evo Industries if they can get a different length? I wonder if they're ordering the different lengths they sell (for the 49 tooth baskets), or making them from longer sections? My guess is they order them, but possibly then can order a custom length.

[SixShooter14]

The reason I asked about the removal of a link was because of my primary gearing. With the Baker chain adjuster,my primary chain is almost maxed out to the top of adjustment. I would like a straighter snake of the chain for better efficiency and adjustability.

Maybe your chain is at the end of it's lifespan? I have typically taken a manufacturers adjustment span as the max chain lifespan.

I posted the Regina method for determining chain life in Post #39. Basically, just hang 50# off the chain and measure. If it's stretched more than the chart says, then it's ready for replacement.

[Hybredhog]

   Maybe I missed it, but who makes the chains for Baker? I have their over ratio chain/comp. kit on my 124 ('01 dyna), as it does help starting a bunch, and I geared it back down on the belt. The Baker kit does use up a lot of travel on the adjuster, and mine even was in between teeth for adjustment, and would slap the case when cold. so I re-drilled the ramp's mounting holes to get a mid point. Yes, they have a fine tooth ramp kit now, but I'm over it.
     I use the bike primarily for touring, so I'm not to hard on the belt, but I do carry a cheapo belt for a spare.

[Ohio HD]

I did look on their web site yesterday, they don't list any primary chains that I could find. So I assume they would be just selling someone's off the shelf chain, and not having anything built special.

[Ohio HD]

They sell Regina chains.


[attach=0]

[kd]

I'm wondering what they consider to be a heavy duty chain?

[Ohio HD]

I'm wondering what they consider to be a heavy duty chain?

       517-339-3835

[turboprop]

They sell Regina chains.


[attach=0]

Too funny. I wore Mark (Baker Drivetrain) out yesterday on chat with this same subject.

[kd]

They sell Regina chains.


[attach=0]

Too funny. I wore Mark (Baker Drivetrain) out yesterday on chat with this same subject.

Did Mark give you any suggestions on beefier chain?  No point in hitting him again. 

[turboprop]

They sell Regina chains.


[attach=0]

Too funny. I wore Mark (Baker Drivetrain) out yesterday on chat with this same subject.

Did Mark give you any suggestions on beefier chain?  No point in hitting him again. 

No he didnt and he was being pretty candid.

I also spoke with some street pro racers (or whatever the AMRA calls that class) about what chains they are running. Everyone of those guys are running a XL based engine, so not apples to apples. What they all said was a Regina chain sourced from a dealership. Two of the three also said they sent their new chains out for 'Treatment'.

[BJB]

If I may ask a question here:
My '13 FLTRU has the Primo Rivera Gamechanger. I really like how it changed the bike's sweet spot  but I have always thought I hear more of a whirring /  dragging sound (not at all metallic) and I have also wondered if a shorter chain, as the original deal was to have been from Primo Rivera, could be bought?
I will say that after doing pipes, tuner cams, etc. the $$$ spent on the Gamechanger was the thing I like the most, well after the Compensaver. This bike is used 2 up 66% of the time as a two up loaded down tourer.

[Ohio HD]

Simple answer is no, nothing off the shelf, or that's what they would sell you instead of the new tensioner shoe.

[build it]

I don't think the chain per se is the problem. Lots of side loading, as far as chassis's are concerned, despite being the holy whatever FXR, plenty of twist. The primary is a pathetic design, twincam, evo, shovel, pan, xl, truly pathetic.

A heavier duty design is within reach for some in this thread. Outboard support bearings wherever they can be applied. Is chain stretch a problem, probably, but there's more to it, like always.

Find the next weakest link. Move on.

[BJB]

Simple answer is no, nothing off the shelf, or that's what they would sell you instead of the new tensioner shoe.

Thanks.
That makes sense but these are Harleys we are talking about.

[Ohio HD]

Simple answer is no, nothing off the shelf, or that's what they would sell you instead of the new tensioner shoe.

Thanks.
That makes sense but these are Harleys we are talking about.

Yes I know, but there is not a chain off the shelf in a lesser size that work work. You can have someone make you a chain I'm sure. 

[ecir50]

Ohio, you going to try the RK, doesn't sound like anyone has any time on one to get an opinion.

[Ohio HD]

I've already ordered one from Mr. Phil. But then I'm not the chain breaker, that would be Ed and Kelly.

I'll put it on my 124 when I change the clutch basket this spring from 49 tooth to 46 tooth. Right now it has the longer length Diamond in it. 

[Hybredhog]

 "Two of the three also said they sent their new chains out for 'Treatment'. "

    I'm assuming Criogenic cold treating, and that could make a lot of things better, and not very expensive.

[turboprop]

"Two of the three also said they sent their new chains out for 'Treatment'. "

    I'm assuming Criogenic cold treating, and that could make a lot of things better, and not very expensive.

That was one of the treatments, the other was polishing and coating by MicroBlue.

[build it]

Oddly to me, cryogenic treatment of chains is rather common, from motorcycle chains to chainsaw blades; I had no idea and knee jerk reaction was it was bull. There are also outfits that cryo treat what appeared to be every part of a Harley engine with specified price points advertised.

After looking at the up and down sides a little bit of the cryo only, I can't see a downside.

When I ordered my Diamond a few years ago I spoke with one of the leads, he said they were good for all I could throw at it. Apparently he, and the heel that record mended that specific chain are liars.

Back to the Black Pill.

[jam65]

I have a 30 tooth Evo comp sprocket and their 49 tooth clutch basket. Final chain drive sprocket is from Baker and the only one with the offset that I need for the custom spacing of the Performance Drive sprocket that is still holding up. I really don't want to replace that sprocket until it is toast.
Primary chain is basically new and was almost out of adjustment when installed with 92 links.

I ended up lining my Baker shoe with a strip of UHMW to take up the slack with a new RK primary chain. I hope that this works but only time will tell.

[Ohio HD]

UHMW is good stuff. Strong, but not brittle.


I ordered an RK from Phil, it'll go in the bike when I pull the transmission soon.

[Pirsch Fire Wagon]

FWIW, I have never seen a Stock Chain installed properly break in 32 years of turning wrenches.

I have seen people change the chain and sprocket (larger) that has broken. I think that company went out of business. They advertised lower RPM at Higher Speeds. However, there are still some Kits out there which I have no experience to speak of. And, also seen them after a lock-up because of broken tensioner Shoes.

And, I have seen at least one where the Gears were not properly aligned that was soon to break. I had to pull the Cover because the metal had blocked the drain hole. That was the only warning sign prior to discovery. He failed to set it up with the correct Shim. About 10,000 miles on it and also said he felt a vibration on the Service Order.

[N-gin]

Maybe group buy of chains and have them Cryo treated. ?

[rbabos]

Maybe group buy of chains and have them Cryo treated. ?

My solution was to eliminate the damn thing completely. Mind you, I've never had an issue with primary chains on any HD I've had from knuckle , pan and TC softail.
Ron

[jam65]

My reason for getting the RK chain was because the Diamond chain has stretched beyond what the factory chain did. I bought the Diamond when I upgraded to the Evo Industries clutch basket and shifts to neutral become a hunting mess. Way too much slack with no room for adjustment. I'm just trying to play it safe is all.

[Ohio HD]

I happened across this video of a primary chain coming apart, caused damage in the primary, could be worse. Also the guy notes that what appears to be an OEM clutch hub has been welded up a few times. Also looks like a solid motor sprocket in use. Chain looks to be a Diamond.

Good thing I'm changing primary ratio, and going back with stock 46 tooth basket, and an RK chain. The Diamond will be coming out.




https://www.facebook.com/spencer.cycle/videos/2050887211826364/

[04 SE Deuce]

No commenting on the bike in the vid but solid engine sprocket has to be harder on everything behind it for most applications.

[Ohio HD]

Well, that's why I mentioned it. If you do ride a bike lugging with a solid sprocket, it sure to create a lot more solid impact pulses on the primary components. If the revs are kept up, then not so much an issue. I have no idea how that bike in the video is ridden, but I imagine hard.

[turboprop]

FWIW, I have never seen a Stock Chain installed properly break in 32 years of turning wrenches.

I have seen people change the chain and sprocket (larger) that has broken. I think that company went out of business. They advertised lower RPM at Higher Speeds. However, there are still some Kits out there which I have no experience to speak of. And, also seen them after a lock-up because of broken tensioner Shoes.

And, I have seen at least one where the Gears were not properly aligned that was soon to break. I had to pull the Cover because the metal had blocked the drain hole. That was the only warning sign prior to discovery. He failed to set it up with the correct Shim. About 10,000 miles on it and also said he felt a vibration on the Service Order.

"Potty mouth" happens. This is the second time for me.

[tmwmoose]

I have a 30 tooth Evo comp sprocket and their 49 tooth clutch basket. Final chain drive sprocket is from Baker and the only one with the offset that I need for the custom spacing of the Performance Drive sprocket that is still holding up. I really don't want to replace that sprocket until it is toast.
Primary chain is basically new and was almost out of adjustment when installed with 92 links.

I ended up lining my Baker shoe with a strip of UHMW to take up the slack with a new RK primary chain. I hope that this works but only time will tell.

I Googled this stuff up, very interesting what and how did you secure it if you don't mind me asking?

[turboprop]

As usual, lots of hyperbole from members that have not done what they speak of. Comical.

Here is my new solid sprocket from Twin Power/Vulcan. I'll be sure to let everyone know how it works out in a few months after I have some real experience with it.

[FSG]

They sell Regina chains.

   that they do, I have one here      

[kd]

My Evo Ind. 49 tooth basket came with Regina 08R CHR chain.

[04 SE Deuce]

Kick start XLCH Sportsters were all solid engine sprocket IIRC at least the iron heads were.  My dad's shop had/built several pump gas 73"-90" iron heads, Pop's bikes/drag bikes, customer bikes and mechanics/my bikes. I don't remember a primary chain issue on any of them with the smaller stock Sportster 3 row chain.  They would break transmission doors if the stocker wasn't replaced with a Trock, sometimes cracking the cases in the process, bend trans shaft, break gears, pop rear/final drive chain and slip tire on the rim if not screwed.

Different animal though as I don't believe most of them made much over 100HP and tires were either 4:00 x 18" or 5:00/5.10 x 16", old tech/traction.  Drag bikes didn't weight much if any over 300lbs but would run 10's on a 4" M&H slick with a 240lb rider.  Pretty sure single XL engine fuel bikes of the day ran stock primary chains.

[jam65]

I have a 30 tooth Evo comp sprocket and their 49 tooth clutch basket. Final chain drive sprocket is from Baker and the only one with the offset that I need for the custom spacing of the Performance Drive sprocket that is still holding up. I really don't want to replace that sprocket until it is toast.
Primary chain is basically new and was almost out of adjustment when installed with 92 links.

I ended up lining my Baker shoe with a strip of UHMW to take up the slack with a new RK primary chain. I hope that this works but only time will tell.

I Googled this stuff up, very interesting what and how did you secure it if you don't mind me asking?

Tapered head fasteners and counter sunk the UHMW to fit. I also rounded off the leading edges of the material to avoid a catch with the chain.

[FSG]

UHMW   hmmmmm     ......  maybe that's what I need

Stock 25T and 82 Pitch Chain fits so well       Note: sprocket shaft off cut providing support.




Here's a 27T Comp Sprocket and an 84 Pitch Chain, no way the Stock Chain Adjuster is going to cope with that. 

[koko3052]

Maybe if you stood that sprocket nut on end? 

[1FSTRK]

Maybe if you stood that sprocket nut on end? 

He definitely has that sprocket nut installed incorrectly.

[Jonny Cash]

Thought I'd give an update as I had posted in this thread.  I've put two weekends at the track on this the RK primary chain, hasn't gave any yet. The Diamond had already given it up by then last year.  I'll keep updated, but looks like the RK is going to wear really well.

[Ohio HD]

Thanks Kelly, and glad to hear it's holding up. How'd you do last weekend? I saw you were working on 60 foot times? 

Please do keep us updated, I know I'm interested in how it holds up. 

[Jonny Cash]

Thanks Kelly, and glad to hear it's holding up. How'd you do last weekend? I saw you were working on 60 foot times? 

Please do keep us updated, I know I'm interested in how it holds up.

Lets say I don't quite have a handle on this clutch yet!  I made some strides but not there yet. By the time I got a couple things figured out, TnT was over.  Looking to hit my mark this week after the monsoon season is over here

[Ohio HD]

Thanks Kelly, and glad to hear it's holding up. How'd you do last weekend? I saw you were working on 60 foot times? 

Please do keep us updated, I know I'm interested in how it holds up.

Lets say I don't quite have a handle on this clutch yet!  I made some strides but not there yet. By the time I got a couple things figured out, TnT was over.  Looking to hit my mark this week after the monsoon season is over here

You'll get it, and yourself dialed in.     

[turboprop]

As usual, lots of hyperbole from members that have not done what they speak of. Comical.

Here is my new solid sprocket from Twin Power/Vulcan. I'll be sure to let everyone know how it works out in a few months after I have some real experience with it.

As promised, here is an update. The solid sprocket has been great. Almost 2k miles on it now. I measured runout on the pinion shaft last night. Still less than .0005". Same as when the solid sprocket was installed. I cannot say with certainty that any of the usual claims are founded. Bike seems to start and accelerate the same as before. For those not paying attention, the bike is a stripped down FXR with a 158 HP TC124 in it that is driven by a mad man.

[Ohio HD]

Updating an old thread on primary chains.

I came across a source in the UK that has Tsubaki primary chains. Is that good? Well maybe, they were always a premium chain manufacturer. Anyway I ordered one and will report back on what I get, and how the process from the UK went. I had emailed someone there and they confirmed stock on what I wanted. So we'll see how it goes.

I'll post a link to the site in the UK in the part sourcing forum.

Hit Me, I'm A Link...

Also, I'm told but have no proof that the Twin Power primary chains may be Tsubaki. I'm told they're from Japan, but they're marked Twin Power. The links do feel like their slightly polished, they're smooth where a lot of chains have a slight rough feel to them. I'll compare this one to the Tsubaki when I get it.

[Deye76]

"The Diamond will be coming out."
  IME Diamond has always sucked. Have never had a problem with Regina. I would like a Tsubaki or a RK as I have used their rear chains with much reliability.   Thanks for the link Brian.

[Ohio HD]

They seem to be very responsive. I received an automated order conformation last night. This morning, just now, received a paid invoice. They said they'll email again with a UPS tracking number when it ships.

[jmorton10]

Just do a Bandit belt drive primary...and all the primary side issues will go away

LOL yeah that works.  I broke a chain during T&T at Atco. I installed this setup & never had another problem........



~John 

[Ohio HD]

I don't know if growing up as a kid your family watched the Ten Commandments every year, mine did, that meant I watched it too. Yul Brynner became one of my favorite actors. I'll use some of a line he used in the movie.

This Tsubaki primary chain, if a myth, bring it to me in a bottle, if it's real, bring it to me in a plain white box.

It's real.


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[crock]

I have always ran Diamond or Timkin on the rear until a couple years ago I ran across a NICHE X-Ring on flea bay in a damaged box for like $30. I now have about 5000 miles (a tire and a half) and other than service(Tire replacement, check wheel bearings,etc) that chain has been maintenance free with no adjusting.

[kouack]

I noticed in the link they do sell a 428-2 84 links chain, does it would fit for a bagger 2013 with a 32 engine sprocket and regular HD tensioner? So you do not have to install a questionable clip on shoe over the original tensioner?

[Ohio HD]

I noticed in the link they do sell a 428-2 84 links chain, does it would fit for a bagger 2013 with a 32 engine sprocket and regular HD tensioner? So you do not have to install a questionable clip on shoe over the original tensioner?

No, it would be too short.  

[Deye76]

Side plates got some beef. 

[Ohio HD]

Side plates got some beef.

Good eye, it feels heavy too. I'll try to remember tomorrow to weight it and a couple others I have here that are also new.

[Ohio HD]

I'll try to add a little tech to the chain talk.
I did weigh the three I have, Tsubaki, RK and Twin Power. They all weigh within 33 grams of each other. So the weight isn't as I thought I felt.

What is a little different is the inner and outer chain plates thicknesses. The Tsubaki has slightly thicker plates. Also notable is the center plates that goes between the two 428 single chains. The Tsubaki is a single piece link, and is 0.096" thick. The other two are two piece, made from two of the inner and outer plate links, and measures 0.112". Although thicker, I'll take the single piece link as I think this will hold up better, as well the inner and outer links are 11% thicker.

I can't easily find the tensile strength of these. That would tell a lot.
The Twin Power is an RK chain I have no doubt. I was told it was made by a popular chain manufacturer in Japan. I hoped it was Tsubaki, but it looks to be RK. They're identical in look and measurements, and weigh within 5 grams.

One thing I'll note that to me give the Tsubaki a nod as far as potentially stronger. When you try to shift the two single chains back and forth. The RK and Twin power seem to have more slop than the Tsubaki has. As well looking at the photos, you can see that the Twin Power chain looks shifted. As well the Tsubaki just feels tighter when you flex the chain as it would go around the sprockets. the other two almost feel like they have some miles on them in comparison.





Tsubaki   RF08B-2 86L-PCE
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RK 428286
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Twin Power (RK)   591204
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[Ohio HD]

Here are the measurements I took.



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[Deye76]

Nice work comparing them for us, Brian. Tsubaki sure does look impressive.

[Ohio HD]

I wish I could find the tensile rating on these. Maybe one day when bored I'll call both companies and find out.

To be fair all three would be outstanding chains in 99.5% of the applications in bikes. the other 0.5% will need the strongest they can get. I think the Tsubaki may have just enough additional mass in the plates to be a better choice for heavy pounding.

[dirt1954]

Are the rollers on the Tsubaki split, or is that an optical illusion? Looks like the Twin Power are solid.

[Ohio HD]

All three of the brands have solid rollers, no splits.

[-deuced-]

The one piece centre link does look stronger. Are the rollers on the tsubaki smoother finish than the others? Are the rollers the same length on all those chains? If so and I add up the plate thicknesses then the tsubaki is also wider. More chance of case contact or does the extra rigidity negate that?

[Ohio HD]

The Tsubaki chain has grease on it so everything looks smooth and shiny. Width I didn't measure. There is no doubt a specification used to keep them as a stated 428x2 series chain. I don't know anywhere a primary chain is close enough to make contact with the inner or outer primary based on slight width changes. 

[-deuced-]

Yeah, you're right. Sorry, don't know what I was thinking.

[dirt1954]

The diamond is back in stock now, but it sounds like the Tsubaki is superior. Any more comparisons-no problems getting from source in UK? Looks like they have 76 link.

[Ohio HD]

They ship better than most US companies. I ordered on the 8th of November, and had it on the 11th of November by UPS.

[dirt1954]

Sounds good, thanks.

[Ohio HD]

To add to this older thread regarding Big Twin primary chains. I decided to go forward with my 49 tooth clutch basket on the new drivetrain, so I needed a new primary chain in 88 links, OEM for my bike is 86 links. I checked Evolution Industries first because they supply the 49 tooth baskets, they have Regina chains (yeay!) in lengths from 74 links to 94 links.

If you need an odd length, I'd look at Evolution Industries to see if they have in stock or can have made what you need.

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[kd]

That's what I've been using and it appears to like being roughed up.   

[98s1lightning]

Cool Interesting thread.

I never seen a primary chain broken in person. I've always stretched em out until they don't adjust properly anymore.
30k on my OEM harley 99' softail 80ci, burnouts yes, powershifting wide open yes, get about 10k out of a rear tire.

Only time I ever heard of one breaking was a Pete hill video he says a nitro bike snapped one And spit it off which hit a bystander in the pits. But that was what 300 plus horsepower maybe 500 plus, I don't know I wasn't there. It wasn't a <150hp street Harley

I bet someone like Greg GMS would have insight on primary chains. He puts record holding power through them. I don't know the guy but seen some of his videos, cool stuff.

[Ohio HD]

You don't need nitro to break a primary chain, you just need a turboprop.   

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,88095.msg1213815.html#msg1213815



And I think Jonny Cash is running a 135" TC.

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,102936.msg1215186.html#msg1215186

[kd]

Cool Interesting thread.

I never seen a primary chain broken in person. I've always stretched em out until they don't adjust properly anymore.
30k on my OEM harley 99' softail 80ci, burnouts yes, powershifting wide open yes, get about 10k out of a rear tire.

Only time I ever heard of one breaking was a Pete hill video he says a nitro bike snapped one And spit it off which hit a bystander in the pits. But that was what 300 plus horsepower maybe 500 plus, I don't know I wasn't there. It wasn't a <150hp street Harley

I bet someone like Greg GMS would have insight on primary chains. He puts record holding power through them. I don't know the guy but seen some of his videos, cool stuff.

I broke one WFO pounding 3rd gear next to the door of a car I was passing on the Manitoba prairies.  Thank God it was the prairies and not a winding road in the Canadian shield.  The chain primary broke and piled up at the base of the clutch basket and locked the rear wheel instantly. (tin primary on an 86" stroked hot rodded 56 slab-side pan / shovel.)  I managed to drop behind the car without hitting it and took the shoulder, then the shallow drainage ditch, then 150 feet out into the farmers field which thankfully didn't have a fence. Yep, they do break and I am luckily still here to tell ya. 

[Tacocaster]

Good to know you escaped unscathed, KD!

I watched with eyes wide open and held-breath as a rear chain literally - and relatively slowly, string itself-out behind a 750 Norton Commando SS running WFO. I lifted, thinking buddy was gonna be into a full-on, unintended panic stop just ahead/beside me (yeah, he was winning, dammit!). Absolute zero damage minus the chain but man! What it could've been.... must be hard walking with horseshoes up in there.

I've yet to see a primary chain go "Taz" but assured it would not be pretty - or cheap.

[kd]

Good to know you escaped unscathed, KD!

I watched with eyes wide open and held-breath as a rear chain literally - and relatively slowly, string itself-out behind a 750 Norton Commando SS running WFO. I lifted, thinking buddy was gonna be into a full-on, unintended panic stop just ahead/beside me (yeah, he was winning, dammit!). Absolute zero damage minus the chain but man! What it could've been.... must be hard walking with horseshoes up in there.

I've yet to see a primary chain go "Taz" but assured it would not be pretty - or cheap.

I fixed my post for clarity.  It was a primary chain.

[Tacocaster]

My fault, KD. I knew you were talking Primary.
I was leaning away from this "primary" thread - but a "rear" chain story was all I had to share...and it's Christmas and I wanted to share.

[kd]

  

[HighLiner]

Looks like the Tsubaki has gone obsolete now!

[Ohio HD]

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,116639.msg1398934.html#msg1398934

[Ohio HD]

I sent out a Tsubaki and the Regina that just came in for cryogenic processing. I figure it can't hurt, and may just keep the chain going into the new 124" bike from stretching and breaking. 


CryoPlus Automotive and Motorsports Brochure


https://cryoplus.com/about.php#process

[HighLiner]

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,116639.msg1398934.html#msg1398934

Maybe I should of been more specific, it shows out of stock for the later touring bikes.

[Ohio HD]

Maybe I should of been more specific, it shows out of stock for the later touring bikes.

ARH sent an email to me, they're back in stock.

https://www.arhcustom.co.uk/product/tsubaki-primary-chain-for-07-16-touring-10-16-trikes-86-links-arm788309

[HighLiner]

Thanks for the update I'll have to place an order quickly.