I think I just joined the sumping club

[VDeuce]

Yeah I would have them pull the crank sensor and see how much oil comes out. The whole "we never heard of that" gets cut down real quick when they see the service bulletin.

[happyman]

Yeah I would have them pull the crank sensor and see how much oil comes out. The whole "we never heard of that" gets cut down real quick when they see the service bulletin.

[jamminhd2000]

Hi Rich...Any updates yet?...Jimmy

[richbiker]

HD said the only thing they found was the vent lines where pinched and that caused the problem
I do agree that that can cause some smoke I do not believe it is the cause of the amount of smoke and the engine drag.
I did get the bike back and as soon as my schedule frees up I will see if it happens again

[happyman]

HD said the only thing they found was the vent lines where pinched and that caused the problem
I do agree that that can cause some smoke I do not believe it is the cause of the amount of smoke and the engine drag.
I did get the bike back and as soon as my schedule frees up I will see if it happens again

curious what are these vent lines??  transmission vent?  I know what that is.  regardless interesting fable here.

[richbiker]

t

HD said the only thing they found was the vent lines where pinched and that caused the problem
I do agree that that can cause some smoke I do not believe it is the cause of the amount of smoke and the engine drag.
I did get the bike back and as soon as my schedule frees up I will see if it happens again

curious what are these vent lines??  transmission vent?  I know what that is.  regardless interesting fable here.

The vents (breathers) on the cyl. heads to the air intake system

[Little Wing]

Yesterday I was cruising up the freeway for 15 minutes and just as my exit came up I started feeling the power falling off,  down shifted and it felt like I down shifted 2-3 gears because of the drag from the engine, down shifted again and same thing, looked in the mirror and saw massive amount of blue smoke coming out of the exhaust, came to a stop and the engine died and will not restart.

were you by any chance in 6th gear and under 3000 rpm? how fast were you going?
the service manager told me to avoid staying in 6th gear under 4000 rpm on the highway. said the rings don't seat properly causing higher crankcase pressure ()
engine definitely runs hotter when i cruise under those conditions.

[happyman]

They need to put out case that work and breathers in the heads. Then get the pump issue resolved.

[rbabos]

Yesterday I was cruising up the freeway for 15 minutes and just as my exit came up I started feeling the power falling off,  down shifted and it felt like I down shifted 2-3 gears because of the drag from the engine, down shifted again and same thing, looked in the mirror and saw massive amount of blue smoke coming out of the exhaust, came to a stop and the engine died and will not restart.

were you by any chance in 6th gear and under 3000 rpm? how fast were you going?
the service manager told me to avoid staying in 6th gear under 4000 rpm on the highway. said the rings don't seat properly causing higher crankcase pressure ()
engine definitely runs hotter when i cruise under those conditions.

Your service manager needs schooling on how engines work.
Ron

[Hossamania]

I agree. If it can't run below 4000 rpms in 6th gear, why can it run below 4000 rpms in the rest of the gears?
And isn't 4000 rpms in 6th gear like 95 miles an hour?

[happyman]

I agree. If it can't run below 4000 rpms in 6th gear, why can it run below 4000 rpms in the rest of the gears?
And isn't 4000 rpms in 6th gear like 95 miles an hour?

so the cure now is put 3:15  gears and 5 speed transmission in um problem solved HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA razzle dazzle BS at its finest.

[Little Wing]

well shucks, fellas, i don't know. that's what he told me.

it does run hotter in 6th gear on the highway. maybe at 80 mph it's getting more air into the intake.

just my humble opinion.

i have a 113 in an older softail that does the same thing.

[rbabos]

well shucks, fellas, i don't know. that's what he told me.

it does run hotter in 6th gear on the highway. maybe at 80 mph it's getting more air into the intake.

just my humble opinion.

i have a 113 in an older softail that does the same thing.

The load is a bit higher in 6th then fifth and this can be seen by either logging or marking the throttle grip. Takes more throttle to go the same speed in 6th then 5th at the lower speeds. That's why it runs a bit hotter and fuel milage will not be as good as in fifth. Engine is just not efficient at that state. There comes a point where 6th is the go to gear for higher mph and there's also more cooling air that goes with it to counter some of the heat plus the engine is higher in rpm and more efficient to handle the extra loading . Load is what actually forces the rings out to the cyls so sealing is good . Down side is, if the ring sealing isn't great for what ever reason, warped cyls, botched breakin or whatever,  this also increases blowby past them and into the case. Worst case, you carry a bit more oil mist over to the breather. Breathers won't allow the case to build pressure as your tech mentioned to the point where the rings are forced off of the bottom lands on the piston.  Sumping on the other hand is not ring related at all but pump related.
Ron

[Not-too-late]

5th 6th load and engine health

Can you explain this further?

On long rolls on slab, I use 6th above 60 mph.

2017 UL

[rbabos]

5th 6th load and engine health

Can you explain this further?

On long rolls on slab, I use 6th above 60 mph.

2017 UL

It's likely the entry point for that gear. Those engines get happy at 3k.
Be prepared for the endless lugging threads now. Mind you when I had the 120ci, I would loaf along at 60 in sixth but primary gearing was not stock with the 49 tooth clutch basket sprocket. The stock 96" the bike was too gutless to use 6th below 70 mph and even then begged for a down shift it it saw a small hill coming.
Ron

[Not-too-late]

IMO--the M8 pulls real well in quite a range.

[Partsman64]

So.............are most of the sumping problems with the CVO's or a Stage 3 or 4 build?  I have a M8 with a Stage 2 (torque cam) and it's got me a little gun shy.  Anyone out there with a Stage 2, and having sumping problems?  I called a local shop for a good tune, and right away he wanted to sell me a fueling pump and cam plate due to the "horrible" oiling that the stock pump provides.  I'm looking at $1200 just to get that done.

Confused on what to do.............................

Thanks for any help!!

[happyman]

So.............are most of the sumping problems with the CVO's or a Stage 3 or 4 build?  I have a M8 with a Stage 2 (torque cam) and it's got me a little gun shy.  Anyone out there with a Stage 2, and having sumping problems?  I called a local shop for a good tune, and right away he wanted to sell me a fueling pump and cam plate due to the "horrible" oiling that the stock pump provides.  I'm looking at $1200 just to get that done.

Confused on what to do.............................

Thanks for any help!!

Call Harley customer service and ask then when they will up date or repair all the 17 and 18 m8 motors.  while they are at it repair the  tranny to primary migration of oil. by the way  the stock motors are not immune to any of this so you know.

[klammer76]

So.............are most of the sumping problems with the CVO's or a Stage 3 or 4 build?  I have a M8 with a Stage 2 (torque cam) and it's got me a little gun shy.  Anyone out there with a Stage 2, and having sumping problems?  I called a local shop for a good tune, and right away he wanted to sell me a fueling pump and cam plate due to the "horrible" oiling that the stock pump provides.  I'm looking at $1200 just to get that done.

Confused on what to do.............................

Thanks for any help!!

Call Harley customer service and ask then when they will up date or repair all the 17 and 18 m8 motors.  while they are at it repair the  tranny to primary migration of oil. by the way  the stock motors are not immune to any of this so you know.

Funny thing is, whenever I'm looking at M8's at any dealership and get asked "are you interested" and I reply "yeah, once the problems are ironed out and fixed then I'll be interested". I get the "what problems"? I talk about sumping and fluid transfer etc. I either get one of three replies, "they have all been fixed", "never heard of or seen it" or "don't believe the internet"    Just come out and admit it and fix the dammed things, try and save some integrity and move on. But I suspect from being around quite a while that will never happen with the Motor Company. If the do "make some upgrades" I suspect the 17 & 18 owners will be on their own. Just getting sick of seeing this stuff over and over from the factory bean counters.

[happyman]

Will  maybe see late August or so if HD  IS  interested in selling  bikes , or just staying in the banking business.

[FLDavetrain]

Will  maybe see late August or so if HD  IS  interested in selling  bikes , or just staying in the banking business.

Agreed.  Does anyone think it's possible for the '19s to be trouble free? Assembly line production for '19 had to begin months ago. How could they have engineered proper fixes, retooled, tested, and begun production in what would be only 18 mos or so since the '17 launch?

[HV]

Just got another one in today....

[hattitude]

Will  maybe see late August or so if HD  IS  interested in selling  bikes , or just staying in the banking business.

Agreed.  Does anyone think it's possible for the '19s to be trouble free? Assembly line production for '19 had to begin months ago. How could they have engineered proper fixes, retooled, tested, and begun production in what would be only 18 mos or so since the '17 launch?

Possible.... Yes, absolutely... probably could have happened for the '18 model year

Probable.... No, at least not the way the MoCo has been dealing with issues lately

I believe the MoCo knows full well, what is causing the oil transfer and the sumping. I suspect, at some point, they will make running production changes, without fanfare, to address these issues going forward (like compensators, auto primary chain tensioner, & cam tensioners... to name a few). It will be on their time table and when it's most beneficial economically to make the production changes.....

I also believe they are still trying to find a cheap, band-aid fix to handle any current, or future, warranty claims until the running changes are made. They certainly don't/won't pay to fix the issues properly for the '17, '18, and maybe even '19 model years.... thus the full court press on trying to make an oil pump that will overcome sumping and making some kind of seal for the pushrod to alleviate the oil transfer (since changing the allowable spec from zero to what, 4-6 oz didn't work)....

Luckily for the '17 & '18 model M8 owners, there are many customers who don't believe the oil transfer & sumping are really that big of a risk... therefore there will still be people, many clueless to the possible issues, willing to buy used M8 bikes.. Once out of warranty, they'll be on their own...

For me, you couldn't give an M8 bike right now... it's not the odds that it will have a problem, but the stakes if it does...