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rubbermounted kick starter

Started by daniele_1983, May 13, 2018, 01:23:55 PM

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daniele_1983

HI!! Does someone know anything about that?? it's a kick starter kit for 2007- up sportster (there is another kit available for 2004-06).

http://www.vtwinmfg.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/VTwinProd1_10101_10102_3388057_-1

I know this kit is not essential for my bike, in any case I like it. the problem is it needs to substitute the mainshaft and so to completely disassembly tranny.

So I have an idea: to machine the existing shaft with a lathe to create a screw for the kicker gear.

this are on-line photos, I didn't try it on my bike. the question is: could this be a way??


this is the 5ft by itself:



this is what we see from the motorcycle right side:



if I remove the protection cap I see the master cylinder and now I can try to machine it.



if I remove the fifth cap can I have oil leaks ??

Thanks

regards. Daniele

farmall

May 14, 2018, 06:17:19 AM #1 Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 07:16:54 AM by farmall
You need to extend the mainshaft so you need to pull the transmission no matter how you attack the problem (with the exception I mention below).

If pulling a tranmission bothers you it would be wise to leave the machine stock since a kicker is more for appearance on any HD including yours with a Denso starter which are highly reliable and can use pushbutton end covers if your relay or switch or wiring fail (or you want them gone for a chopper).

Explain your situation better. What year is your machine? If it's a rubber mount pulling the mainshaft is stupid because there's no trap door. If you want a kicker you could install all but the ratchet parts and have a kicker for looks, or mount a microswitch so your kicker powers the start relay.

A mainshaft extension would be better made as a cylinder with a male thead on each end for ease of machining (and in case you scrap the first one which beats scrapping a mainshaft). Don't just use a right and left hand thread stud with a bushing slid over it instead of a one-piece extension because that wouldn't be nearly as rigid.

You can see the shaft overall length differences and where the seal goes.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2bnomlBT8s

As an old mechanic who grew up kicking and still does when necessary (Nortons, Triumphs, my Ironhead) I wouldn't install an Evo Sporty kicker kit on my own Evo Sporty if it were free, It's trivially easy to keep the stock Denso starters working fine with a pushbutton solenoid cover as backup. Contact kits are cheap and a breeze to install.

Unless you cannot get a kit from Led Sled I'd avoid Taiwan kits because soft ratchet gears can hurt your knee when they strip.

If you are patient there's one way to do it with the shaft installed but it's a lot of work and full of potential pitfalls. You could remove the end cap, turn a guide bushing to snugly fit the end cap hole,  then use the bushing to center drill (no twist drills, they walk which you know as a machinist but other readers may not) the shaft then drill and tap for a shaft extension with two male ends. You'd need a guide bushing for each drill size you use. How you hold the tap to keep it straight is up to you.

The extension will provide standoff for the kicker gear from the main shaft and permit use a seal of your choice.

I'd turn a custom prick punch to fit the guide bushing then mark the shaft end then measure to ensure the punch mark is concentric to the shaft. Then I'd drill and ream to final size. Your shaft extension must be concentric to the shaft or it will do bad things to your seal.











daniele_1983

thank you very much for the answer! I need a little time to completely understand it cause I'm not an expert mechanic and not so skilled with technical english.

In any case I want a kicker cause every two years the battery looses its power and if electric falls in the middle of nothing there is no way to turn the motor on. (I think there isn't a way to turn the solenoid with a dead battery and a push-starter with no one helping You is a mess...)

After I've installed the kit I think I have to modify timing to make it working and avoid kick back, isn't it?

thank you again for helping

Pete_Vit

If you have a dead battery and think a kicker can help on a 2009 I think your SOL, (Out of luck), you still need some power for the electronic ignition and if you are FI you need power for the pump and control modules. I may be wrong, but unless you change it all over to a magneto ignition + carbed you can't do what you want... guys??? am I wrong?

93 XLH1200 - 96 FXSTS - 2010 Ultra Glide Classic
www.facebook.com/harleypartsch

tmwmoose

Quote from: Pete_Vit on May 14, 2018, 11:34:51 AM
If you have a dead battery and think a kicker can help on a 2009 I think your SOL, (Out of luck), you still need some power for the electronic ignition and if you are FI you need power for the pump and control modules. I may be wrong, but unless you change it all over to a magneto ignition + carbed you can't do what you want... guys??? am I wrong?


If the battery is 100% dead yeah you need a mag, but it  can go down and not operate a starter but have enough for a ignition and some of the electronic ignition stuff can work with less than 12 volts as well. I have never heard of a efi motor with a kick start :scratch:

Pete_Vit

Quote from: tmwmoose on May 14, 2018, 12:10:06 PM
Quote from: Pete_Vit on May 14, 2018, 11:34:51 AM
If you have a dead battery and think a kicker can help on a 2009 I think your SOL, (Out of luck), you still need some power for the electronic ignition and if you are FI you need power for the pump and control modules. I may be wrong, but unless you change it all over to a magneto ignition + carbed you can't do what you want... guys??? am I wrong?


If the battery is 100% dead yeah you need a mag, but it  can go down and not operate a starter but have enough for a ignition and some of the electronic ignition stuff can work with less than 12 volts as well. I have never heard of a efi motor with a kick start :scratch:
yeah I hate to assume it was EFI, but i'm not too familiar with newer Sporties, if they all started coming with EFI after a certain year.  :unsure:
93 XLH1200 - 96 FXSTS - 2010 Ultra Glide Classic
www.facebook.com/harleypartsch

daniele_1983

No, I was EFI, but now I've converted to Mikuni HSR 42. I think a mag is quite  exagerate to me, cause a 2009 sportyu does have nothing under nosecone. I think a battery not cpmpletely dead but just weak can give power to the sparks if I have a kicker

daniele_1983

dear Farmall, I've seen the LedSLed video very carefully and I see the kicker mainshaft has exacltly the same lenght of ne original one. the only difference is the hole for the kicker gear.

my fear is that I sould remove the mainshaft cap, verify if it is possible to machine it, close the bike with his seal, buy the kit, re-open the mainshaft and machine it. but I don't know if I have oil leakage after removing the seal for the first time...

PC_Hater

The Led Sled Kicker Kit fits Sportsters up to 2003 only.
It will NOT fit your 2009 Sportster.

To work on the transmission on your bike you have to remove the engine from the frame and take it all apart.
If you are clever enough and have the machine tools to do it you could use the Led Sled Kit as the starting point and then make whatever special parts you need.
It won't be easy!

Does your ignition system fire the plugs immediately or does it need one complete revolution before it will fire the plugs? If so, you can forget about kickstarting. You can get modern ignition systems that work with kickstarts - try Daytona Twin-Tec.

1942 WLA45 chop, 1999 FLTR(not I), 2000 1200S

Hossamania

Buy one of those little micro start units and put it in your saddle bag or pocket. It will jumpstart your bike no problem. A lot easier than custom installing a Kickstarter.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Panzer

Your right Pete, 07 and up are FI.

daniele_1983, I'd steer clear of doing this day dream you have.
You doing this yourself?  If so figure having the bike laid up for 6 months or more.
Having a shop do it?  Better have deep pockets.

Just my .02
Everyone wants to change the world but, no one wants to change the toilet paper.

Xyzzy

Quote from: farmall on May 14, 2018, 06:17:19 AM
...and can use pushbutton end covers if your relay or switch or wiring fail (or you want them gone for a chopper).

What is this and how does it work?

daniele_1983

I think HD is the only bike you can customise bolt by bolt!!! And this to me is more satisfying than ride itself!!!

Panzer

Quote from: Xyzzy on May 14, 2018, 07:36:20 PM
Quote from: farmall on May 14, 2018, 06:17:19 AM
...and can use pushbutton end covers if your relay or switch or wiring fail (or you want them gone for a chopper).

What is this and how does it work?

Xyzzy,
It's like......well, you install a push button switch to connect to the starter.
When you push the switch it connects the positive + on the starter and negative - to ground.
Your acting like the starter button.
Everyone wants to change the world but, no one wants to change the toilet paper.

Hossamania

Quote from: Panzer on May 15, 2018, 05:46:29 AM
Quote from: Xyzzy on May 14, 2018, 07:36:20 PM
Quote from: farmall on May 14, 2018, 06:17:19 AM
...and can use pushbutton end covers if your relay or switch or wiring fail (or you want them gone for a chopper).

What is this and how does it work?

Xyzzy,
It's like......well, you install a push button switch to connect to the starter.
When you push the switch it connects the positive + on the starter and negative - to ground.
Your acting like the starter button.

It bolts directly on to the end of the starter, replacing the plate.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

DanThe Man

Quote from: Hossamania on May 15, 2018, 06:47:15 AM
Quote from: Panzer on May 15, 2018, 05:46:29 AM
Quote from: Xyzzy on May 14, 2018, 07:36:20 PM
Quote from: farmall on May 14, 2018, 06:17:19 AM
...and can use pushbutton end covers if your relay or switch or wiring fail (or you want them gone for a chopper).

What is this and how does it work?

Xyzzy,
It's like......well, you install a push button switch to connect to the starter.
When you push the switch it connects the positive + on the starter and negative - to ground.
Your acting like the starter button.

It bolts directly on to the end of the starter, replacing the plate.

Yep, I had one on my pos 03 Ultra, it must have been built on a monday or a friday. It beat digging in the bag for a piece of wire  and pulling back the rubber boot to start it.
I thought I was wrong once but i was mistaken.

daniele_1983

Ok, there are lots of systems to charge batteries and start a dead motor, but I prefer to discuss about the kicker.
Does anyone know the OEM number of the cap at the end of the fifth gear I have in photos?? Is this rubber or metal? Can it be removed to main shaft ispection?

hogpipes1

ck with Ronnie's Harley  shop  on line  in PA, they  have  real good  micro films /part # and pic's of  many yrs worth of Harleys.

daniele_1983

thank you! my problem is to order the  plug at the end of the 5fth gear, but I cannot see a code!

PC_Hater

May 16, 2018, 11:57:29 AM #19 Last Edit: June 01, 2018, 01:50:17 AM by FSG
from the 2009 Sportster parts list at
http://partsfinder.onlinemicrofiche.com/ronnies/showmodel.asp?Type=13&make=%20TRANSMISSION%20GEARS

item 15: seal, part number:12030

possibly you need item 7: Bearing, Ball part number:8964
it consists of items 6, 14, and 17 which are sold as the single kit of parts item 7

1942 WLA45 chop, 1999 FLTR(not I), 2000 1200S

harley_cruiser

Ok, correct me if I am wrong, but as PC said the rubber mounted transmission did away with the trap door so in order to remove the fifth gear main shaft the engine has to be split.

PC_Hater

Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on May 16, 2018, 01:12:13 PM
Ok, correct me if I am wrong, but as PC said the rubber mounted transmission did away with the trap door so in order to remove the fifth gear main shaft the engine has to be split.
Yes. A big shock to traditional Sportster owners, but to those of us who took their T140V engine apart in the kitchen sink, well, what's the problem!
It's not like you do it everyday, once in 88,000 miles on my Bonneville, and that was only to fit go-faster cams.
1942 WLA45 chop, 1999 FLTR(not I), 2000 1200S

harley_cruiser

Quote from: PC_Hater on May 16, 2018, 01:26:01 PM
Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on May 16, 2018, 01:12:13 PM
Ok, correct me if I am wrong, but as PC said the rubber mounted transmission did away with the trap door so in order to remove the fifth gear main shaft the engine has to be split.
Yes. A big shock to traditional Sportster owners, but to those of us who took their T140V engine apart in the kitchen sink, well, what's the problem!
It's not like you do it everyday, once in 88,000 miles on my Bonneville, and that was only to fit go-faster cams.
Yea, I had a t120 that I bought with a thrown rod through the bottom of the case, I pulled it apart had the case welded, and we put it back together with used parts. Gees that was a life time ago.
Back on topic, I get the feeling that the OP does not know that the motor needs split, and he has said he is no expert mechanic so that is why I pointed it out.

PC_Hater

Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on May 16, 2018, 02:35:55 PM
Quote from: PC_Hater on May 16, 2018, 01:26:01 PM
Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on May 16, 2018, 01:12:13 PM
Ok, correct me if I am wrong, but as PC said the rubber mounted transmission did away with the trap door so in order to remove the fifth gear main shaft the engine has to be split.
Yes. A big shock to traditional Sportster owners, but to those of us who took their T140V engine apart in the kitchen sink, well, what's the problem!
It's not like you do it everyday, once in 88,000 miles on my Bonneville, and that was only to fit go-faster cams.
Yea, I had a t120 that I bought with a thrown rod through the bottom of the case, I pulled it apart had the case welded, and we put it back together with used parts. Gees that was a life time ago.
Back on topic, I get the feeling that the OP does not know that the motor needs split, and he has said he is no expert mechanic so that is why I pointed it out.
My written French is shocking so I can't help him as much as I would like... If he can convert an EFI Sportster to carb he can't be that bad. But it will be no mean feat if he does it!
1942 WLA45 chop, 1999 FLTR(not I), 2000 1200S

Hossamania

His reason for wanting to do it is solid - because people modify Harley Davidson in ways that people think can't be done. Brilliant! I would love to see it happen.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.