Early softail vs. early Dynas (early 80's) Help

[CW#]

I can see from the pics of the upcoming models that I am only going to be interested in having a classic (but not historic) Harley. I like the look of a 1984 softail with kickstart and electric start, the connecting pipe between the headers, and laced wheels. I can't seem to find a good list of comparative specs, etc. I know that the earlier softails with the EVO engine were not rubber mounted nor balanced.. I also like the Dyan Wide Glides in the same basic configuration as the '84 softail and I also like the classic look of hardtail with shocks. I liked the fact (at least in latter models) that the rake on the newer Wide Glides was 1 degree more than the other models (I think I'm correct on this). So, I need some help...

Either a good location for the specs with some pics that I can use to narrow my search or some help or both.

1. Did the early Wide Glides have the wider rake plus the kick start/electric start in 1984 models (or earlier)?

2. I have heard some people say that they would take an EVO over a Shovel. Is this valid?

3. I have heard that the early EVO's cases managed larger bores without cracking.

4. Wikipedia doesn't do it.

5. Which one would you choose?

6. Any problems with parts?

7. I know I can add a Baker kick start to the tranny... I don't care about anything more than a 4 speed I dont' think.

8. Any research recommendations?

Thanks in advance. I am sure I will have more questions as I narrow my choices.

[friday]

you have to keep searching and cross referencing , web info is not reliable
I had HD enthusiast mag mustve been 1990 because Fatboy was new grey and orange . in that mag was an Evo FXE test bike , according to this list there was only 1 in 1984 , solid mounted motor
http://shovelhead.us/pics/history/84.htm

guys are nuts over 84 and 85 FXWG both 4 speeds shovel and evo

somewhere I have 88 89 90 brochure of specs  . FXE is inspiration for Dyna look

[Ironheadmike]

The only bikes that were solid mount were the softails and sportsters . The first couple of years of the evo  the cases were built better . Then Hd cheapened them up by thinning the cases down and they would crack between the lifter blocks . These were from about 88-91 .

[remington007]

Early softails with a kicker were 4 speeds similar to a shovelhead.

[Deye76]

The first softails had chain final drives, they ate chains like a fat kid with a Hershey bar. Vibrated like a sex toy.

"Which one would you choose?"
Dyna, with a torque arm, as they were known to break the inner primary lip off the engine case.

[david lee]

The first softails had chain final drives, they ate chains like a fat kid with a Hershey bar. Vibrated like a sex toy.

"Which one would you choose?"
Dyna, with a torque arm, as they were known to break the inner primary lip off the engine case.

shovels had the same problem with the cracking

[Julio]

I may be wrong, but I don't think HD ever rubber mounted a motor in a softail frame. At least not in the Evo models.
The '84 and '85 FXSTs had the rotary 4 speed tranny, chain drive and kick start from the factory. In '86, they went to the belt drive, 5 speed tranny and lost the kicker. I'm pretty sure the '84-'85 models of the FXWG and FXS with evos were solid mounted with chains, rotary 4 speed and kickers. Maybe someone that has owned or owns one will chime in.
I've owned a '85 FXST for the last 13 years. It was pretty much stock when I got it, except for the drag pipes and a Bendix, instead of the stock Keihin butterfly they came with. I would compare it in reliability to a '87 FXST that I put over 100k miles on from '88 to '96. A buddy had a '84 FXST and put a ton of miles on it. I never heard him complain about the bike.
I haven't had any problems finding parts I've needed for the '85.
As far as which is a better bike, shovel or evo? I think it's safe to say the evo is the best motor HD ever made, and yes, I have a shovel and have ridden shovels since '76.

[david lee]

I may be wrong, but I don't think HD ever rubber mounted a motor in a softail frame. At least not in the Evo models.
The '84 and '85 FXSTs had the rotary 4 speed tranny, chain drive and kick start from the factory. In '86, they went to the belt drive, 5 speed tranny and lost the kicker. I'm pretty sure the '84-'85 models of the FXWG and FXS with evos were solid mounted with chains, rotary 4 speed and kickers. Maybe someone that has owned or owns one will chime in.
I've owned a '85 FXST for the last 13 years. It was pretty much stock when I got it, except for the drag pipes and a Bendix, instead of the stock Keihin butterfly they came with. I would compare it in reliability to a '87 FXST that I put over 100k miles on from '88 to '96. A buddy had a '84 FXST and put a ton of miles on it. I never heard him complain about the bike.
I haven't had any problems finding parts I've needed for the '85.
As far as which is a better bike, shovel or evo? I think it's safe to say the evo is the best motor HD ever made, and yes, I have a shovel and have ridden shovels since '76.

your correct no softails rubber mounted dyna and touring are.i always thought 84 was the last of the shovels.are you saying 86 was the first 5 speed

[Julio]

your correct no softails rubber mounted dyna and touring are.i always thought 84 was the last of the shovels.are you saying 86 was the first 5 speed

You're right that '84 was the last year for shovels, but you could buy some models that year with either a shovel or evo motor in it.
1986 was the first year HD put a 5 speed in the softail. Shovel FLTs and FXRs had 5 speed trannies before that.

[Burnout]

I don't think the Dyna's had any different rake in the frame.

I am convinced that the marketing department is taking liberties. And suckers around the world lap it up.

Add 2" to the short forks and take an inch or so off the shocks, presto! More rake..... (and a new model)

I've never ridden a spec sheet, but I have ridden the bikes and can tell no difference.   

I've also heard the different part # argument, but that doesn't fly either.

if you change or move one bracket or bolt hole you have a different part #,
use an updated casting or forging or replace a forging with some origami you have a new part #.
For years the bean counters have been chisling bits off the frame to save $.
Isn't it easier to stretch the forks (they already have them) shorten the shocks (they already have them)
bolt on a couple of shinny bobbles off Willie's desk and create a new model they can charge more for?

[friday]

yea but if your missus is fat , there goes the rake even more

[remington007]

I know in 96 Dyna Lowriders had 2 degrees more on the neck than the other Dyna models. I think Softails were all the same.

[Burnout]

Again I am fairly certain those bike were "advertised" as having different rake.

The MoCo bean counters would never let them build a one model specific raked frame, one frame fits all models.

Quite a few models had raked trees, so they might also have taken liberties with the term "rake".

again adding 2" to the forks and taking 1" from the shocks, plus a 21" front wheel, suddenly the steering axis (rake) has increased.

They might have added brackets or forward control mounts to one model or another but I'm sure it was the same basic frame.

Most Wide Glide trees had a couple degrees of "rake" in addition to the short shocks and longer forks used on those models.

[rageglide]

Every rubber mounted bike, shovel or evo had a 5 speed.

84 FXWG is shovel only, 85 FXWG was Evo.  There are also 85 FLHPs with Shovel and 4 speed (not rubber).

'84 FXWG has the same fork trees, tubes and brakes as all the Softails did through '99.  FXDWG triple trees are different.

[friday]

the frame steering axis stays the same but wheel base and trail change when playing around with angles on trees and wheel size .

[david lee]

your correct no softails rubber mounted dyna and touring are.i always thought 84 was the last of the shovels.are you saying 86 was the first 5 speed

You're right that '84 was the last year for shovels, but you could buy some models that year with either a shovel or evo motor in it.
1986 was the first year HD put a 5 speed in the softail. Shovel FLTs and FXRs had 5 speed trannies before that.

my understanding is 84-85 had the first 5sp or was it 85-86 (series 1)and 87 was the first series 2

[C#]

Thanks for some of the info. I know that the 2006 Wide Glides have 1 degree more rake than the other dynas... but I don't know if that is true of the 80's models. I don't think I want to ride a solid mounted softail... my back might stop me from doing that even though I really like the look of the '84 that I saw. I am leaning toward an '84 Dyna or maybe a little later because I have heard some people say that the EVO engine is one of the best. I didn't know that they ate chains, though. I also hated my '06 nightrain due to the 200 rear tire... all about looks not about handling. 180 is as wide as I want to go... more likely 150.

Keep 'em coming!

[Hossamania]

Thanks for some of the info. I know that the 2006 Wide Glides have 1 degree more rake than the other dynas... but I don't know if that is true of the 80's models. I don't think I want to ride a solid mounted softail... my back might stop me from doing that even though I really like the look of the '84 that I saw. I am leaning toward an '84 Dyna or maybe a little later because I have heard some people say that the EVO engine is one of the best. I didn't know that they ate chains, though. I also hated my '06 nightrain due to the 200 rear tire... all about looks not about handling. 180 is as wide as I want to go... more likely 150.

Keep 'em coming!

The solid mount motor isn't what will hurt your back. It is the inferior rear suspension of a Softail that will do that.

[Burnout]

Softail suspension is not bad til you lower it.

What is really bad is the rear axle is higher than the swingarm pivot, it's a moving violation.
Then someone lowers it and makes it worse!

[hbkeith]

your correct no softails rubber mounted dyna and touring are.i always thought 84 was the last of the shovels.are you saying 86 was the first 5 speed

You're right that '84 was the last year for shovels, but you could buy some models that year with either a shovel or evo motor in it.
1986 was the first year HD put a 5 speed in the softail. Shovel FLTs and FXRs had 5 speed trannies before that.

my understanding is 84-85 had the first 5sp or was it 85-86 (series 1)and 87 was the first series 2

First 5spd was 1980 in FLT , 1982 in FXR

[C#]

Softail suspension is not bad til you lower it.

What is really bad is the rear axle is higher than the swingarm pivot, it's a moving violation.
Then someone lowers it and makes it worse!

Makes sense to be bad... thanks for the tip!