Sumping issues solved

[Sunny Jim]

Further to my dilemma, I installed a new HD pump and plate.
Corrected oil level to 3.5 Qt.
Road bike
For 30 minutes on a cool day and had temps of 311 degrees F. Kept
Speed under 60mph.
Returned to garage and ran bike
Upright for 1-2 minutes. Removed CPS and drained approximately 180 mls from sump.

[VDeuce]

Are you certain the piston oilers are not leaking? I know you mentioned you tightened them, but did you replace the gaskets?

[Sunny Jim]

Yes VD.
Road it again today!
Carried out test as per bulletin 1450 and drained 300ml from CPS.
I am over this heap of S##t

[Sunny Jim]

Would/could  the crankshaft seal be leaking/ as in allowing air into the crankcase?

[Txwezl]

am I not understanding your post? 180 ml is only 6 oz so If that's correct you are good once you get it tuned.

[Sunny Jim]

TX, I initially got approximately 150 ml. Second run I road further and drained out 300ml. It's like there is an air leak with crankcase. I am as confused as the next person,but I am thinking that possibly the drawing in of to the crankcase May be an issue,

[Sunny Jim]

still sumping! Especially in low revs/ traffic and rising temps. I am done!
117 kit and $3k out of pocket including to oil pumps and a host of new gaskets!
Back to 107, baby Cam and original set up.
Failing that, it's back to the future.

[yobtaf103]

Seen one instance of porus lifter bore ( video on here somewhere iirc)

[Hog95023]

is this mostly happening to motors with stages added or is it common to the stock 114 also? I unfortunately didn't research before buying my 19 limited july 4th. 

[metaliser]

I have a 19 Limited with 3600 miles on it and have no issues at all. I've also installed a S&S cam and exhaust and had dynoed at 1100 miles with no issues.

[Sunny Jim]

After considerable effort to solve the sumping issue, including a pump engineer, lots of science jargon, some guessing and a 107 - 117 and back to 107 conversion I still have sumping as described by TSB 1450.
With a lowered oil level (3.5 litres)  in an otherwise stock 107 with a 460 Cam, still getting 10-12 Oz from CPS port.
The map is sound
The oil pump is the current HD offering with seal.
Tried a vent on dipstick with no positive result.
No oil leaks
Any ideas ?

[rbabos]

After considerable effort to solve the sumping issue, including a pump engineer, lots of science jargon, some guessing and a 107 - 117 and back to 107 conversion I still have sumping as described by TSB 1450.
With a lowered oil level (3.5 litres)  in an otherwise stock 107 with a 460 Cam, still getting 10-12 Oz from CPS port.
The map is sound
The oil pump is the current HD offering with seal.
Tried a vent on dipstick with no positive result.
No oil leaks
Any ideas ?

Excessive feed side leakage beyond it's normal paths and more then what the scavenge side can handle is the only explanation. Have you checked into defective cam plate, loose oilers and possible casting flaw Hardtail78 pointed out in one of his vids. Sounds like it's dumping oil out of places it shouldn't. You must be very patient. I would have burnt the fker to the ground by now with all the frustration.
Ron

[Sunny Jim]

Thanks Ron, I have no choice but to rectify it. Oilers are good. It hasn't always done. Prior to commencing with the mods, it ran well, didn't appear to sump, and engine temps were reasonable 270 - 290f*.
Maybe TMans mod on the case regarding the scraper mind be the final solution. I am loathed the remove it from frame. ☠️

[FSG]

Oilers are good.

did you pull them to ensure the holes are not mushroomed out and holding the oiler slightly proud ?

[Sunny Jim]

On the oilers. Yes we faced them and ensured a flush fit!

[Vision]

Sunny Jim,  at this point,  have you considered specifically trying the Feuling HP race series oil pump and cam plate.  Both me and VDeuce experienced pretty much the same after going to the Feuling on our 120+ builds along with another friend of mine that has a 19 post seal CVO RG Sumper.  No further sumping since.

I have 3000 miles now post sumping (sumped just shy of 3000 miles)and the Feuling Pump install with no issues.  Had the CPS pulled at around the 5000 mark for service  and barely drained 3 ounces. 

Like VDeuce,  I was using a Hayden check valve off my breather bolts,  but have since since removed the Hayden and now vent right to a catch can.   I made this change at the 5000 mile mark And added a Feuling vented dipstick at the same time which also has a check valve.  Still smooth sailing and I ride pretty hard on a regular basis. 

I still keep coming back to the Feuling Pump and plate being the silver bullet for me.  If the Feuling out performs the factory pump with scavenging to a point where it can handle the pressure issues discussed in this thread and can effectively evacuate the crank shaft,  that may be it.  Just my thoughts.  Also very curious about the new crank case breathers from t-Man as potentially being the root of the pressure issues.

[Sunny Jim]

Sunny Jim,  at this point,  have you considered specifically trying the Feuling HP race series oil pump and cam plate.  Both me and VDeuce experienced pretty much the same after going to the Feuling on our 120+ builds along with another friend of mine that has a 19 post seal CVO RG Sumper.  No further sumping since.

I have 3000 miles now post sumping (sumped just shy of 3000 miles)and the Feuling Pump install with no issues.  Had the CPS pulled at around the 5000 mark for service  and barely drained 3 ounces. 

Like VDeuce,  I was using a Hayden check valve off my breather bolts,  but have since since removed the Hayden and now vent right to a catch can.   I made this change at the 5000 mile mark And added a Feuling vented dipstick at the same time which also has a check valve.  Still smooth sailing and I ride pretty hard on a regular basis. 

I still keep coming back to the Feuling Pump and plate being the silver bullet for me.  If the Feuling out performs the factory pump with scavenging to a point where it can handle the pressure issues discussed in this thread and can effectively evacuate the crank shaft,  that may be it.  Just my thoughts.  Also very curious about the new crank case breathers from t-Man as potentially being the root of the pressure issues.

I have considered feuling. I have the new SS kit siting there. I guess I am somewhat hesitant, considering the SS was unsuccessful somewhere along the line. No the bike is back to 107 I have been riding it on runs up to an hour only, and I have been getting up to 400 ml out of the CPS. .
It runs really well. It currently has HD pump and seal. The one thing that we are noticing is the oil pump is noisy when it's hot.
Anyway, no all the stress has dissipated, I am going start from scratch and DIARISE every little move. The memory can get in the way! Lol!

[Sunny Jim]

On Feuling pump and plate option, I see there are options.
Which part number is the recommended unit?

[Vision]

You want the one labeled Race Series.  Both the pump(7020)and the cam plate(8017) are anodized red.  The pump listed is for oil cooled.

[Vision]

Added Feuling per numbers above.

[Sunny Jim]

I get how my last post was executed. Sorry admin.
However, the assertion is that the alleged response from feuling is that their pump sorts it out.
I discussed this sumping issue with a local service manager/ technician and he informed me that HD can't cure all that sump.
The oil pump solves some problems! But they go to other extremes like removing the oil pan sump and cleaning it out _ what is that about?
And stripping 5he engine completely to just a crankcase and crank/rods only - spin it 20 times and feel for seizing etc .
- seriously?
This problem is bigger than Ben hur!

[les_garten]

I get how my last post was executed. Sorry admin.
However, the assertion is that the alleged response from feuling is that their pump sorts it out.
I discussed this sumping issue with a local service manager/ technician and he informed me that HD can't cure all that sump.
The oil pump solves some problems! But they go to other extremes like removing the oil pan sump and cleaning it out _ what is that about?
And stripping 5he engine completely to just a crankcase and crank/rods only - spin it 20 times and feel for seizing etc .
- seriously?
This problem is bigger than Ben hur!

This post is kind of a mess to understand...

[Hilly13]

Plenty of builders have found sticky rods with the M8 Sunny Jim, dunno how it could have anything to do with sumping though.

[mac10-45]

Here is my 2 cents on the sumping issue. 2018 FLHTKSE CVO Limited 115th ANV, #758/1200. Purchased new March 2018. On about 6-1-2018, at 6,100 miles it sumped, thought it was bad gas cleared up at about 6,200 miles. 1/3 Loss of power, ran hot, fans ran a long time after shutting it off and gas mileage was cut in half. At 6,768 miles it did it again. Dealer replaced pistons, jugs, rings, gaskets. Oil pump was the latest version, tech dis-assembled pump, inspected it and reinstalled it. The tech said he didn't know what caused it and Harley didn't know what caused it (see H-D Service bulletin M 1450). Dealer did a 1K oil change at about 7,700 miles and oil changes at 10,000, 12,500 miles. Sump had 3-4 oz of oil each time. Then I read on one of these H-D M8 Forums that the 2019 Stage 3 & 4 M8's had the part number 25700731, gasket set, cam service and part number 62400206, oil pump assy cover that 2017 & 2018 big bore M8's did not have. My dealer found these parts at another dealer and on 10-16-2018 at 13,596 miles they added them under warranty along with a Stage 2, horse power cam (I paid for the cam, no labor charge). Today is 8-17-2019, I have 29, 500+ miles on this bike with no issues. When the crankcase position sensor is pulled a few drops of oil come out of the sump. No more fluctuating oil levels like before these parts (25700731 & 62400206) were added. The bike consumes a little oil between changes. After 4,000 plus miles the oil level is down between 4 and 5 dots on the dipstick. I always check the oil level the same way so as to compare apples to apples. Also, when the oil change is first done and I ride home 27 miles and check it it always shows 2 dots low to start with. I can't believe H-D has not had a recall of the big bore (Stage 3 &4) 2017 & 2018 M8's to do the upgrade that was done on mine. They are just waiting for these bikes to go out of warranty.

[Sunny Jim]

still sumping! Especially in low revs/ traffic and rising temps. I am done!
117 kit and $3k out of pocket including to oil pumps and a host of new gaskets!
Back to 107, baby Cam and original set up.
Failing that, it's back to the future.

Not to give up! And reading over my seemingly bewildering previous posts,
The ' sumping at low revs' issue has caused me to get back to basics.
This issue is not the same as others who seem to sump at high rpm.
Hence forth , I finally got the. Opportunity to borrow an oil pressure gauge
And check da pressure (sober).
And there it was! 75psi @ idle -hot. 100 psi @3000rpm.
Long story short.
A blockage.
We bypassed the oiling system through the heads from oil cooler to return oil line.
Ran the bike on the bench at 270*f.
Oil pressure 25-30psi.
Removed cps and NO oil flowed out.
Tested all external head plumbing - ok. Cooler -ok.
Heads off.
Big thanks to the head service tech who installed grub screws deep into pilot hole on head face. Screws blocked the oil flow through heads, thus causing a blockage , high head temps and massive oil dumping into the crankcase.
So much so that the pressure relief valve was overwhelmed with volume.
And SS pump /plate made it even worse.
So , here lies the lesson !
Read TSB carefully and follow every procedure.
I am somewhat embarrassed BUT, it is what it is.
Cheers!