Author Topic: Sumping issues solved  (Read 34427 times)

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Offline BigT

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Re: Sumping issues solved
« Reply #300 on: September 23, 2019, 09:30:24 AM »
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Offline Helmwurst

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Re: Sumping issues solved
« Reply #301 on: September 23, 2019, 03:10:13 PM »
What oil pump is that? I don't see that pump on their website  :idunno:

Offline BigT

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Re: Sumping issues solved
« Reply #302 on: September 23, 2019, 05:09:14 PM »
Supposedly another change being released.

Offline Helmwurst

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Re: Sumping issues solved
« Reply #303 on: September 24, 2019, 05:55:16 AM »
If it is a S&S, it should be blue anodized. I did not think they made a pump to fit the stock Harley cam plate. I will try to call them to see what is going on. Getting ready to run to BB&BBQ on Thursday and pulled about 16oz out of my case yesterday.

Offline jstitan2017

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Re: Sumping issues solved
« Reply #304 on: September 24, 2019, 09:47:32 AM »
I've read this whole column and not once was it asked. Why not use an oil cooled oil pump on a twin cooled engine? They will pass more volume than the twin cooled model. Aren't he soft tails all using the oil cooled pump and not the twin cooled one and you never hear of any soft tails sumping?

Offline To The Max

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Re: Sumping issues solved
« Reply #305 on: September 24, 2019, 03:54:34 PM »
I've read this whole column and not once was it asked. Why not use an oil cooled oil pump on a twin cooled engine? They will pass more volume than the twin cooled model. Aren't he soft tails all using the oil cooled pump and not the twin cooled one and you never hear of any soft tails sumping?
The oil cooled pump has a higher pumping volume because it pumps a large volume of its oil to the cylinder heads . if you fit this pump to a twin cooled motor the larger volume will cause the oil pressure to go through the roof and the motor will sump at idle and before you get two miles down the road. going the other way will more than likely to cause oil starvation I would think. Max

Offline Jobie

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Re: Sumping issues solved
« Reply #306 on: December 08, 2019, 02:47:06 PM »
Just read every post from front to back.  Didn't see anything about trying a Feuling vented dipstick to relive pressure from the oil case.  I have an 18 M8 that started out with oil migration.  After 1 1/2 years of my warranty with oil studies and two try's from the dealer, oil is still just off the tranny dipstick, Harley call's it fix. [ Primary vent installed ] Never had a sumping issue until after the vented dipstick was installed.  I check my oil levels often.   I put in the vented dipstick just because, before the sumping started.  Not saying that caused it, I like venting.  Went on a fall trip to the other side of the state and on the way home the x-way was moving.  80 - 85 all the way home.  The only time I ride like that is when I have to. [ most of the time ]  Didn't feel any power loss but did notice oil almost off the engine dipstick after the ride.  Dealer picked up the bike in early Nov.  When the bike was started to put in trailer it started knocking.  Shut off and pushed bike in.  18 oz's in crank case. Bike is coming home next week with the last and greatest oil pump and seal.  When checked there wasn't any leak down to speak of and piston jets were intact.  Asked dealer what the knocking was cause from....... answer.... Don't know.  They never pulled the crank out, just the top end and cam chest.  And to think, my warranty is up in February.  Not much riding in Michigan during the winter.  I know the Feuling vented dipstick didn't cause the sumping but it didn't stop the issue ether.  Who knows, it might of been more sumping without it.  For the folks that are interested in trying the vented dipstick, I can say it is well built and design along with an easy install but don't except great things out of venting the oil case.  Didn't help with my sumping issue.  Just hope HD will address this issue after the warranty sense there is a warranty history with this bike.  Been riding Hd's for 54 years and just about ready to go see the Indian Stealer.  I'm to old to ride in circles doing oil studies for Harley.

Offline ziggy24

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Re: Sumping issues solved
« Reply #307 on: December 10, 2019, 08:08:38 AM »
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 where did you find that?

Offline Hossamania

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Re: Sumping issues solved
« Reply #308 on: December 31, 2019, 10:08:34 AM »
I'm not sure if this is the right spot for this, but I have a friend that just tore down his 2017 Ultra, 107" going to 124", and the piston oilers were loose. He's been doing a lot of research before he made his final build decision, and was aware of the sumping and transferring issues so kept an eye on both over that last couple years. No problems before tear down (he did install cam, tune, and oil tank breather last year), but he was surprised to find the oilers so obviously loose. It wasn't a "I'm not sure if they are or not" he says there was no question, and it may have even been sumping a bit, on the way to full on. This build is also getting a new HD oil pump.
I will post up his build results once finished.
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Offline MakoHD

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Re: Sumping issues solved
« Reply #309 on: December 31, 2019, 03:29:08 PM »
Guys I want to share this information with all of you because I see you guys going back front with what pump to use and itís very simple.  Iíve had 5 engines sump on me where I pulled out half a gallon from the crank case. I tried all different HD pump and they all continued to sump. This is with the latest pump and plate up to the very last 2019 models. The only solid fix has been the  s&s pumps. Once I did the feulin because i got a stupid deal on it. Iíve only seen 117ci and bigger sump. I notice that they sump the most when ridding long distance at 90mph+++. Yes S&S just added the seal to the back of the pump and Iíve also tried it it works great, so did the original one from S&S. Iíve heard that the 2020 oil pump is completely different but I wouldnít wast my time on trying it out because I know that the S&S pump itís a solid fix. Also make sure you donít over fill your motor oil. Donít max out the dip stick.

Offline Heatwave3

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Re: Sumping issues solved
« Reply #310 on: January 02, 2020, 08:10:41 AM »
Guys I want to share this information with all of you because I see you guys going back front with what pump to use and itís very simple.  Iíve had 5 engines sump on me where I pulled out half a gallon from the crank case. I tried all different HD pump and they all continued to sump. This is with the latest pump and plate up to the very last 2019 models. The only solid fix has been the  s&s pumps. Once I did the feulin because i got a stupid deal on it. Iíve only seen 117ci and bigger sump. I notice that they sump the most when ridding long distance at 90mph+++. Yes S&S just added the seal to the back of the pump and Iíve also tried it it works great, so did the original one from S&S. Iíve heard that the 2020 oil pump is completely different but I wouldnít wast my time on trying it out because I know that the S&S pump itís a solid fix. Also make sure you donít over fill your motor oil. Donít max out the dip stick.


So you DID or DID NOT use the latest HD 2020 8 lobe oil pump before spending your money on the S&S oil pump???

Offline MAG19

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Re: Sumping issues solved
« Reply #311 on: January 11, 2020, 08:10:52 AM »
Guys I want to share this information with all of you because I see you guys going back front with what pump to use and it's very simple.  I've had 5 engines sump on me where I pulled out half a gallon from the crank case. I tried all different HD pump and they all continued to sump. This is with the latest pump and plate up to the very last 2019 models. The only solid fix has been the  s&s pumps. Once I did the feulin because i got a stupid deal on it. Iíve only seen 117ci and bigger sump. I notice that they sump the most when ridding long distance at 90mph+++. Yes S&S just added the seal to the back of the pump and Iíve also tried it it works great, so did the original one from S&S. Iíve heard that the 2020 oil pump is completely different but I wouldnít wast my time on trying it out because I know that the S&S pump itís a solid fix. Also make sure you donít over fill your motor oil. Donít max out the dip stick.

Not true in my case. At 5000 miles I discovered that my 19 special was sumping, carrying up to 24 oz of oil in the crankcase at all times. I tried the S&S pump and cam plate. Didn't help. I'm now building my 117 into a 128 and still haven't resolve the issue. I'm going to try the new 2020 pump that hd recently put out. Guys are having good luck with them.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2020, 08:14:22 AM by rigidthumper »

Offline Nastytls

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Re: Sumping issues solved
« Reply #312 on: January 11, 2020, 10:05:55 AM »
So you're going to build a 128" when you know that there's already an unresolved sumping issue, one that's likely to get worse with a larger engine?? :scratch: You'll be kicking yourself when it really sumps and smokes your new engine...
Opening a can of worms is really the only thing holding me back from doing a big bore right now, otherwise I'd love to have more power. Currently mine doesn't sump ( knock wood ) and I don't want to create a sumper.

Offline MAG19

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Re: Sumping issues solved
« Reply #313 on: January 11, 2020, 12:38:29 PM »
Well what choice do I have really but to tear it down and address the short comings as well as the imbalance of oil circulation. Not using the junk parts that came with the stage 4 so might as well get everything into tolerance and check all the known reasons of sumping while torn down. Btw that's an Internet myth that larger bores sump more. Have extensively done my research on this topic for a good year now and just as many stock motors have bit the dust. Riding style is also a myth at least in my case it is as well as many others. Problem doesn't go away on its own that's why mine is all torn down and any controllable variables are addressed before rebuild.

Offline kd

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Re: Sumping issues solved
« Reply #314 on: January 11, 2020, 01:14:16 PM »
So itís a 2019?  Donít you have warranty?  Why are you pumping ďyourĒ money into it?
KD

Offline Vision

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Re: Sumping issues solved
« Reply #315 on: January 14, 2020, 08:41:25 AM »
MAG19,

Sorry to hear about your troubles.  I’ve been there.  My sumping issues were resolved by installing a Feuling HP cam plate and Oil pump.  In your case,  since you already have the S&S,  have you installed the new backplate that S&S now offers for their pump?  If not,  I would make sure to try that in your rebuild.  Also,  the new 2020 Harley pump scavenges 40% more oil than the current pump you have.  If you’ve decided to ditch the S&S,  which may not be necessary with the addition of the plate,  the new HD pump gives you a relatively inexpensive option.  Just an additional bit of info,  I salvaged my SE heads and clutch plates. Added AIM SDR lock up and slave cylinder.  Swapped out everything else and running strong as a 124 with Rev Perf cylinders.  No Sumping.  Again,  the silver bullet for me was the Feuling Setup.

Offline yobtaf103

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Re: Sumping issues solved
« Reply #316 on: January 14, 2020, 11:27:36 AM »
 S&S do not sell the new "backplate", you have to purchase a new oil pump complete

Offline Vision

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Re: Sumping issues solved
« Reply #317 on: January 14, 2020, 12:21:02 PM »
S&S do not sell the new "backplate", you have to purchase a new oil pump complete

Wow.  That sucks!  Thanks for the info!  Yeah, Iíd be pretty much done with them!

Offline Aerkill

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Re: Sumping issues solved
« Reply #318 on: January 15, 2020, 05:21:36 PM »
Iím having a strange problem. My bike is a 2019 FXLR 107Ē, and it had the Stage 1(Bassani 2-1, SE Heavy Breather, & SE Pro Tuner w/canned map form Harley) installed by the dealer before I took ownership of it. 1350mi. Stripped outer comp. sprocket, dealer fixed. 1400mi. I(me) did an RS468 cam, Fueling HP+ CSP/oil pump, S&S pushrods, teppets, tappet cuffs, and TMax Tuner with WaveTune(Zipperís map). After I did this I added 4 quarts of oil, Redline 20w50 synthetic. Read nothing on the dipstick. Added more, checking every few ounces, stopped at 4.5qts or so. Rode it, got spray on the right side. Came back, sucked out some with vac pump, until no spray/leak. Rides good but ZERO oil on the stick, no matter what; jiffy stand, upright, ride it for 10 mins, etc.. Fueling said the vented dipstick will fix it. My factory oil pump has the o-ring, Fueling pump does not. Going to send my bottom end to Darkhorse next month, to set the foundation for a 128Ē build. Just doing bottom end, cylinders/pistons, HPI throttle body w/6.2g injectors, and a clutch. Anybody have any thoughts on the no oil thing? I was going to do the vented dipstick first, before tear down, hoping the lowers the pressure enough to stop the blow-by. Has anyone experienced this issue? What was your fix?

Online Jmd897

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Re: Sumping issues solved
« Reply #319 on: January 15, 2020, 06:03:22 PM »
Too much oil caused blowby.  With the vented dipstick your suppose to have at least between 3.5-4 quarts when using the dipstick.  Are you reading the dipstick from the Feuling or the OEM dipstick?  I use my OEM dipstick and warm up the engine.  After riding for a few minutes I stop the engine while letting it idle for a minute or two upright.  I put the OEM dipstick in and stand it up.  It should read 3-4 dots below full.  Also Feuling recommends using Valvoline VR1 Race Oil 20w-50 high zinc.

Offline HarleyHiwayMan

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Re: Sumping issues solved
« Reply #320 on: January 18, 2020, 04:48:27 AM »
I took my 18 Limited in for a running light replacement. The Service Manager told he they had just received an oiling update for my bike including a new oil pump and more to cure a possible sumping issue. Said high mileage riders like me should do it. I got it done under warranty. Also said the trikes are of higher concern.
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Offline MAG19

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Re: Sumping issues solved
« Reply #321 on: January 18, 2020, 07:54:20 AM »
MAG19,

Sorry to hear about your troubles.  Iíve been there.  My sumping issues were resolved by installing a Feuling HP cam plate and Oil pump.  In your case,  since you already have the S&S,  have you installed the new backplate that S&S now offers for their pump?  If not,  I would make sure to try that in your rebuild.  Also,  the new 2020 Harley pump scavenges 40% more oil than the current pump you have.  If youíve decided to ditch the S&S,  which may not be necessary with the addition of the plate,  the new HD pump gives you a relatively inexpensive option.  Just an additional bit of info,  I salvaged my SE heads and clutch plates. Added AIM SDR lock up and slave cylinder.  Swapped out everything else and running strong as a 124 with Rev Perf cylinders.  No Sumping.  Again,  the silver bullet for me was the Feuling Setup.

Hey Vision thanks Im glad that you resolved the issue by using the fueling setup. Unfortunately the guys at S&S wont just send me a backing plate. (Shame on them!) My original plan was to install the fueling setup but then decided to go with the HD 2020 pump due to cost and the fact that there seems to be some success out there with it. So far I have torn down and started to rebuild the 128 and have found some ring seal issues as well as an ACR very loose in the rear cylinder  ( shame on dealer tech when he installed the stage 4!) which may explain the problems going on. I will proceed with the HD pump and hopefully am successful going forward. Thanks for the input great minds think alike lol

Offline Vision

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Re: Sumping issues solved
« Reply #322 on: January 21, 2020, 10:05:27 AM »
MAG19,

Sorry to hear about your troubles.  I’ve been there.  My sumping issues were resolved by installing a Feuling HP cam plate and Oil pump.  In your case,  since you already have the S&S,  have you installed the new backplate that S&S now offers for their pump?  If not,  I would make sure to try that in your rebuild.  Also,  the new 2020 Harley pump scavenges 40% more oil than the current pump you have.  If you’ve decided to ditch the S&S,  which may not be necessary with the addition of the plate,  the new HD pump gives you a relatively inexpensive option.  Just an additional bit of info,  I salvaged my SE heads and clutch plates. Added AIM SDR lock up and slave cylinder.  Swapped out everything else and running strong as a 124 with Rev Perf cylinders.  No Sumping.  Again,  the silver bullet for me was the Feuling Setup.

Hey Vision thanks Im glad that you resolved the issue by using the fueling setup. Unfortunately the guys at S&S wont just send me a backing plate. (Shame on them!) My original plan was to install the fueling setup but then decided to go with the HD 2020 pump due to cost and the fact that there seems to be some success out there with it. So far I have torn down and started to rebuild the 128 and have found some ring seal issues as well as an ACR very loose in the rear cylinder  ( shame on dealer tech when he installed the stage 4!) which may explain the problems going on. I will proceed with the HD pump and hopefully am successful going forward. Thanks for the input great minds think alike lol

MAG19,

Sorry to hear about your troubles.  I’ve been there.  My sumping issues were resolved by installing a Feuling HP cam plate and Oil pump.  In your case,  since you already have the S&S,  have you installed the new backplate that S&S now offers for their pump?  If not,  I would make sure to try that in your rebuild.  Also,  the new 2020 Harley pump scavenges 40% more oil than the current pump you have.  If you’ve decided to ditch the S&S,  which may not be necessary with the addition of the plate,  the new HD pump gives you a relatively inexpensive option.  Just an additional bit of info,  I salvaged my SE heads and clutch plates. Added AIM SDR lock up and slave cylinder.  Swapped out everything else and running strong as a 124 with Rev Perf cylinders.  No Sumping.  Again,  the silver bullet for me was the Feuling Setup.

Hey Vision thanks Im glad that you resolved the issue by using the fueling setup. Unfortunately the guys at S&S wont just send me a backing plate. (Shame on them!) My original plan was to install the fueling setup but then decided to go with the HD 2020 pump due to cost and the fact that there seems to be some success out there with it. So far I have torn down and started to rebuild the 128 and have found some ring seal issues as well as an ACR very loose in the rear cylinder  ( shame on dealer tech when he installed the stage 4!) which may explain the problems going on. I will proceed with the HD pump and hopefully am successful going forward. Thanks for the input great minds think alike lol

That fact that S&S actually changed the design, but offered nothing to the buyers of their original pump annoys me.  I’m not surprised.  S&S changed their cam chest components on their twin cam LC 124 crate engine shortly after I put one in my 2014 Rushmore.  I experienced major oiling issues with that engine, which ended up being its demise.  My tech ruined several tools just trying to get into the cam chest and loosen the micro Allen or star bolts they used to hold the cam plate in.  S&S offered no help when the engine went just after a few months past the end of the warranty.  Oh,  they’re help was to direct me to a vendor who had their new engines for the best price; but that’s another story for another time....

Reading accounts of out-of-round SE cylinders is exactly what made me go 124 with new cylinders after my bike Sumped.  I had no confidence in the ring seal or the factory pump at that point.  The loose ACR can definitely cause some starting issues for you; especially in cold weather.  Good luck with everything.  Would love to know how it all turns out.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2020, 10:46:51 AM by Vision »