Why doesn't MOCO weld cranks as standard at factory

[05FLHTC]

I killed the motor while I squeezed between the vehicles, then realized what I did & pulled the clutch in to coast over to the side of the road. It was a very scary situation, not something that you forget easily.

But like was stated what could have been very bad was avoided & I really should be thanking the Lord for the outcome...

Thanks for putting it in perspective for me 

[FXDBI]

Pull the clutch in when doing a panic stop?? Dunno why one would do that and lose any engine braking available. Myself I will drop a gear when hitting the brakes has soon has its in a rpm range that will take a lower gear. Most important is not hitting whatever is in the way. Almost 54 yrs old and been one diff bikes since 12, really cant figure out wtf you would pull the clutch in for on a panic stop. Someone please enlighten me....Bob

[1JITSU1]

I've always believed that lugging the engine posed a higher chance of twisting the crank than locking the brakes, esp. with the torque the engine is trying to use. I see (hear them really) folks riding merrily along at 45 mp in 5th gear at under 2K rmp. I don't even think about 5th until the bike is at 60 mph or higher - the torque is being transfered to the wheel and not to the crank. I'd love some feedback from anyone who goes into the bottom ends regularly (both of my bikes have welded cranks).

I beleve you are right
maybe 55

[blk-betty]

Pull the clutch in when doing a panic stop?? Dunno why one would do that and lose any engine braking available. Myself I will drop a gear when hitting the brakes has soon has its in a rpm range that will take a lower gear. Most important is not hitting whatever is in the way. Almost 54 yrs old and been one diff bikes since 12, really cant figure out wtf you would pull the clutch in for on a panic stop. Someone please enlighten me....Bob

Here is my theory, good or bad I don't know.  In a panic stop I've got 2 hands and 2 feet and 5 possible actions - not in any specific order 1) Pull clutch with left hand.  2) close throttle with right hand.  3) Apply front brake lever with right hand (can be done simulatenously with closeing throttle.  4)  Apply rear brake with right foot.  5) Downshift when appropriate for RPMs with left foot.

If it's a true panic stop there is a good chance I will initially lock the back wheel as I'm hitting the brakes very quickly, once I've got the feel of how much right foot pressue is needed I can release pressue off the back wheel so not to go into a skid.  If the clutch is not pulled in and the rear wheel locks the engine dies so I no longer have the option of immediate engine power to pull out of the way of an ever changing situation.  And while the clutch is pulled I can downshift to just about any gear to be ready to take off in any second rather than waiting for the engine speed to drop to the appropriate rpms for safe downshift points.

I'm talking about a true emergency panic stop, not a quick stop because in that case I will do as you describe and use the engine for braking but in a "HOLY SH*T I'm gonna die type of stop"  .... I'm hitting the brakes hard and I don't want is to lose engine power due to a rear wheel lock up induced stall. 

Is my technique correct?  Possibly not as one never wants to lock the wheel and lose braking ability but it is my gut reaction and thought process going into subconscious instant reaction. 

I guess practicing and practing and practicing to apply the rear brake as quickly and as hard as possible without causing a wheel lock-up would help but every situation is different - wet vs. dry surface, passenger vs. solo, bike speed at time of braking, tires hot or cold, riding up a hill vs. down a hill at time of braking, etc. so that the pressue applied to the rear brake to achieve ultimate stopping force without locking is never the same.   

[Ken R]

I'm not too keen on the word "PANIC" stop.  Panic implies loss of rational thought.  Instead, it should be thought of as "Emergency" stops. 

Emergency stops require 80 - 90 percent front brake and the rear wheel should never lose traction.  The clutch should be disengaged right along with application of the front brake.  Downshifting should be automatic . . . you may need acceleration to get out of the way of a following vehicle once you've negotiated around the obstacle that caused the emergency action.   You need to be in the right gear!

In an emergency stop, there is no reason to lock the back wheel.  It should (in a perfect world) never happen since loss of traction is counterproductive to one's goal.   If it does (lose traction), you will lose 10% of your total braking power . . . . .and it might be the 10% that you need the most. 

Applying the rear brake in a panic situation will almost always result in a locked rear wheel.  There have been plenty of accidents where the rider locked his rear wheel and left a long skid mark before running into a car.  Those accidents may well be avoidable.   Instead, apply the front brake, increasing it's pressure, but not to the point of locking the front wheel.  There's so much braking power that you will feel as if you're going over the bars. 

Rear brake?  Just the weight of one's foot on the rear brake pedal will create maximum rear braking without losing traction and locking the rear wheel. 

My friends and I practice emergency braking often.  Here's David practicing braking technique.  Notice on the first run, you hear his rear brake losing traction.  TOO MUCH BRAK PEDAL PRESSURE. 

David is entering the exercise at 40mph and gets the motorcycle stopped in less than 63 feet.  It takes practice, but the skills are necessary if you're going to ride on the roads with traffic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bke4iKKx5-I&feature=PlayList&p=6FB2229D070F4149&index=0&playnext=1

[Jeffd]

I wonder how many people practice emergency braking on a regular basis?  It is the best skill you hope you never need.  It takes 100 if not 1000's of reps before something is committed to muscle memory and becomes automatic.  Heck I have seem people that have trouble running the clutch and gear shifter, wonder how they would do in an emergency brake situation..big long black streak from the rear tire if even that.

[Dennis The Menace]

When I have a Panic stop, I just close my eyes and hope when I open them I dont see God!  lol

Seriously, 05 sorry to hear about the crank.  MoCo figures that every part will have a low failure rate, but cant build every part to be bullet proof and never fail.  Its unfortunate that you are that small percentage of riders that found the breaking point of a component.  But, as you note, its just great that you are still here to be able to tell the story.

Jeffd, you are right.  Until you are in an emergency situation, ya never know how you will react, but if you have practiced many times, maybe those learned responses will kick in.

A couple weeks after I got my Ultra, moving from a Fatboy, I was doing 65 down the highway and light turned.  Figured I was too far out to run the yellow and dont like hitting an intersection red when on a bike (I push it in the car, I admit).  Put on the brakes and the bike didnt slow like my Fattie.  Pushed more on the rear and it locked up and bike was wanting to go sideways.  Eased off of it but I can tell you, I thought I was going down at about 40mph.

I started practicing fast stops after that, because I was definitely not used to stopping quick on that much heavier bike.  I practice fast stops now and then, because I know I will need to know how the bike is going to react when (Yes--WHEN) I need to make a quick stop.

menace

[05FLHTC]

 

[blk-betty]

You guys make great points about front bakes and just to claify my posts above, I DO use the front brake IN combination with the rear so it's not an all rear and no front issue.  

Just repsonding how "I" do it to the question above that implied one shouldn't pull the clutch with emergency stopping.

Yea, your right it should be called an Emergency stop and not a Panic stop.  I think we all have have in those close call situations regardless of what its termed.

[FLTRI]

Yea, your right it should be called an Emergency stop and not a Panic stop.  I think we all have have in those close call situations regardless of what its termed.

I believe there is a distinct differences between the 2.
Panic stop: When a rider reacts to an emergency situation by over braking/locking wheels (front or/and rear) which loses traction and puts the motorcycle into a line of trajectory rather than a line of avoidance.

Emergency stop: A practiced and controlled threshold braking and steering event that is used either for accident avoidance or late braking into a corner while racing.

One is a learned ability that ends up being a natural reaction to keep the bike undercontrol while avoiding something and the other is simply an unrehearsed reaction that either ends up in failure and a hospital visit (or worse) or the rider feeling he did everything he could and was just plain lucky.
After years of teaching accident avoidance I have to say it is down right scary how many riders are just an emergency experience away from finding they haven't a clue as to what and how to maneuver around and through an emergency situation.
Just my $.02 worth,
Bob

[04 SE Deuce]

Hey 05,     I hope you don't feel to slapped around about your "emergency" technique. I'll bet virtually everyone has been "caught out" at sometime and locked the rear. I personally like the feel and stability the engine and or rear brake load add to the chassis on deceleration and in a true emergency sometimes the clutch doesn't get released as it should. Also easy to lock the rear on a H-D with a foot long rear brake lever and sensitive rear brake, combined with a lackluster front, (even on dual disc bikes). When I replaced pads on the H-D I followed Lyndall's suggestion and used gold frt. & Z rear. Good people, service, and pads. That helped the balance but still not in the same league as most other motorcycle manufacturers. H-D brake
s are mediocre.                         
    Back to the crank I remember discussions here before where lock-ups resulted in scissored cranks. It was mentioned to me by a knowledgable individual  "M.R." back in 2006. Marginal crank, heavy flywheels. Crank problems are not a secret the MOCO. has issued "clean" dates where changes were made to improve the situation. Bob you offer a lot of good info and have mentioned racing background in past posts, so are you saying it is not possible to slip the flywheel/crankpin even giving the typical engine builders reaction to stopping his engine with rear wheel lock-up?

[kicks66]

There's fast and half fast...speed costs money...how fast do you want to go?

[apendejo]

I consulted with Mr. Inertia. He said that it is possible to damage the crankshaft, and other things if you stop the motor from a significant rpm all at once. 
AP

[FLTRI]

There's fast and half fast...speed costs money...how fast do you want to go?

[rhino]

I lost my crank at 52k, no panic stops, I do have 25k of that pulling a trailer, I dont lug the motor nor do I hot rod it, 01flht. I think mine was rod bearing failure not twisted, it was knocking pretty bad. happened at sturgis 2 yrs. ago. I was not using syn. oil, but changing at 3k every time. I run syn. now and oil temp gauge now too. I think it should have lasted longer than that, dont really know cause of failure, but went with fueling pump, gear drives,ss510, hope it lasts longer this time

[Ultrashovel]

I still remember the INA inner cam bearing used with the EVO. Nobody could figure why the MOCO used that bearing. Well the MOCO tested it for over 100,000 miles with the production stock engine without failure.

The TC crank will go a million miles without failure or twisting in a stock 65hp engine and the MOCO knows it.

Why is it hard to understand the MOCO needs only to prove reliability for the stock production bit and pieces?

AFAIK, there aren't too many mfgs that over-engineer their engines so they can take doubling the hp/tq without issues, problems, and/or failures.

IMO , I can't fault the MOCO for producing and engine that if left alone will go well over 100,000 miles, yet offer performance enhancements, including Timken bearing upgrades, to keep their engines alive with double the stock, production power.
As always, JMHO, Bob

Good post. I agree completely. They are building stock motorcyles for ordinary use. Modifying them can be fun but the basic design won't take a doubling of power as stated here.

[05FLHTC]

I lost my crank at 52k, no panic stops, I do have 25k of that pulling a trailer, I dont lug the motor nor do I hot rod it, 01flht. I think mine was rod bearing failure not twisted, it was knocking pretty bad. happened at sturgis 2 yrs. ago. I was not using syn. oil, but changing at 3k every time. I run syn. now and oil temp gauge now too. I think it should have lasted longer than that, dont really know cause of failure, but went with fueling pump, gear drives,ss510, hope it lasts longer this time

I guess you can't pull a trailer with em either or make a panic emergency or what ever you call it stop??? IMO I think the amount of $ that the MOCO saved by going to the cast crank & roller bearings was a cheap insult to the customers. Hooray for the stock holders & screw the loyal customer base...I purchased my last new HD in 2005...God knows I have enough money invested in my 2005 that I have no choice but to keep it for at least the next 40 years... 

[Don D]

Mostly would agree but the crank has forged wheels they are just as forged and not machined which is a cost savings. The cases are no longer a matched pair lined bored either chalk up one more for shared value, just don't use the stock price as a thermometer because it is broke!

[sepick]

I can understand the MOCO not spending the extra dime on stock cranks, but what about Screamin Eagle cranks that are a main component to so many of their Screamin Eagle kits?  :wtf:Steve

[quikbike]

The TC crank will go a million miles without failure or twisting in a stock 65hp engine and the MOCO knows it

BS....not a word of truth here

[Dennis The Menace]

Quikbike...uh, actually, Dave Zien has done it on same crank....  http://www.fox6now.com/news/witi-090405-harley-million-mile-vid,0,2686032.worldnowvideo

So, proven it can go 1M miles.

[Ultrashovel]

The TC crank will go a million miles without failure or twisting in a stock 65hp engine and the MOCO knows it

BS....not a word of truth here

That's a honest opinion. LOL

Having said that, why would an engine builder, any engine builder, use a stock crank in any bike? Engine builders don't use stock cranks in Nascar, Drag Racing, Formula One, Motocross, Supermotord, you name it. So why use a stock crank in a Harley when you want a big inch motor that has a lot of torque?

For that matter, why build up an engine that is limited by pushrods, piston speed and 800 pounds of total weight? It doesn't make sense. So instead of changing the crank to something better that will last, you complain and run down HD because they are building stock bikes. Sheesh.

[FLTRI]

The TC crank will go a million miles without failure or twisting in a stock 65hp engine and the MOCO knows it

BS....not a word of truth here

WOW!! What fact(s) did you base calling me a liar on? You are calling BS on something that has been proven over and over since 1999. Believe it or not there are quite a few bone stock bikes out there that regularly get way over 100,000 miles without any work done to them other than services, even towing trailers.
Not all HD owners double the horsepower and expect the stock parts to live forever. Most folks here modify their bikes to make at least 20 more hp/tq than stock, some more than 50hp/tq more than stock. Some then actually bitch because their cranks don't stay straight, even after wheelies, burnouts, and generally hod-rodding their bikes.

[L-]

Well hell, if I were building a product and saw how good it was but didn't need to be I suppose I would up my profits also. Sure, why not.  How do they document the million miles ??  He sure has duct tape and oil leaks. Probably needed to split the cases at 750,000 miles though.

L-

[-SeabrookTrickBagger]

Wonder why Harley doesn't weld all cranks on original engine production.  Seems like that would solve allot of potential engine problems. 

A bit hard to rebuild the connecting rod if you weld the crank journal to each side of the crank pancakes.  Maybe rebuildability?   I hear SnS makes a bolt together crank for the TC88 which might be a hot ticket as opposed to welding the crank journal.