Starter Shaft Issue

[8080REG]

Hi everyone, I'm currently putting a stock primary back on my 8080 with a BDL enclosed belt drive. When fitting the starter shaft i noticed that the shaft nut will not allow the starter gear to engage fully with the ring gear unless I back it off?? The starter shaft appears to be to short! Primary is a 74 chain drive.
Any ideas what might be wrong before I machine the nut down!

[billbuilds]

     IIRC the BDL enclosed kit that I had several years ago came with a brass shim that goes onto the starter drive housing before you put the inner primary in place that effectively extends the length of the starter drive shaft. Are you certain that the key in the main shaft is correctly seated and that it didn't move when you slide slid the clutch hub in place? Seems like it (clutch hub) should be fitting a bit more inward than it is. Bill

[8080REG]

I only have the hub mocked up atm so no key....I didn't receive any shims with my belt drive set up. I am using an Ultima starter set up so I'm wondering wether this has anything to do with the problem?

[JW113]

Sorry mate, more info needed. You said "stock primary". You mean the stock primary that came off the bike as originally came with it? Or is this piecemeal from a collection of parts? How about you post an inventory of the parts you're using and the year and/or part numbers.

What I can tell you is the primary housings and starter parts changed several times over 18 years that the Shovelhead was produced. And you're also introducing an aftermarket starter into the mix.

-JW

[billbuilds]

     I believe that the Ultima starter is modeled very similar to the Spyke starters. I placed the starter drive shaft in the stock starter drive housing and measured from the gasket mating surface to the very end (where the nut you speak of threads on) and got about 122mm. I did the same with the Spyke and measured from the inner face which the same as the gasket mating surface on the stock housing and got the same easurement. I'm pretty sure that the Ultima starter is designed to use with the stock starter drive shaft so I'm not sure that's the issue.
     Are you using the stock cowpie 4-speed?  There are different kits for 65-78 and 79 to 84; you are sure that you have the correct one? I can call BDL on Monday and ask them if you'd like. Bill
       
      l   

[8080REG]

I'm running  The Ultima 70-232 starter mated to a 60620-74 inner primary. Starter shaft measures  7" in length and protrudes 120mm from starter housing.....ring gear sits 3mm proud of inner primary. Stock Cowpie transmission.
I'm thinking I might have to machine the boss on the jack shaft nut to make it work?

[billbuilds]

     Something that should have dawned on me earlier is that your spacer and locknut appear to be one piece whereas the stock setup uses two separate parts. If somehow your spacer is too long it would prohibit your Bendix from traveling the full distance it needs to in order to engage your ring gear. Any idea on the history of those parts? Here's a photo of a stock cone motor/chain final starter drive shaft with steel rule for reference.


     Another thing that I'd try is to remove the clutch hub, slide the thrust washer in place and then the primary cover without the derby cover on. You should be able to spin the thrust washer with your finger (there shouldn't be any binding). Conversely, there should be little to no slop between those parts.


     Check those items out and let us know. We should be able to figure this out by process of elimination. Please don't go machining anything yet.

[8080REG]

The starter parts are new Vtwin items 43-9153 is the kit number and it came with the one piece nut which measures 22mm as in your photo. The only way I can see to make this work would be to either machine back the starter housing or machine the starter nut boss too 3mm thickness?
I put the primary cover on as you suggested and the thrust washer has a lot of free play (about 3mm).
The belt drive is a BDL closed drive set up to suit 1970-1983  EVB-3T-4.

[Burnout]

Some of the outer primary covers have different depths on the starter bearing location.

[billbuilds]

     I don't see where machining the starter housing is going to help in any way; the jackshaft needs to move outward more to allow the Bendix gear enough travel to engage the ring gear. The only way that I can see that happening is by using a shim like the one in the photo and I realize that your kit did not come with one. Now if you were to machine the boss on the inner primary where your starter mounts, that would move everything (starter and starter drive-wise) outward and effectively give the jackshaft the extended length it appears to need. But you should not have to do a bit of machining. I still think that a call to BDL  would be in order and, again, I'll be happy to call them tomorrow and ask. Why they do not have installation instructions on their website for your kit if beyond me. I share in your frustration.

[8080REG]

I have emailed BDL Tech with the problem I'm having and see if they have a solution....I will probably contact Ultima as well,maybe it has something to do with the starter?

[billbuilds]

     I emailed BDL myself cause this one is bugging me too. I was asked whether your bike has chain or belt final drive even though I'd stated that yours is a 1980 (thought no belt final until 1982  ) I know that the ring gear is further outboard by about 5/16" on belt final drive clutch baskets. You do have chain final drive, right?  I really don't think that the Ultima starter is the problem since the jackshaft protrusion measured real close to the same as on a stock starter drive 120-122mm). They did not say why the instructions for your kit are not among those that appear on their website. 

[8080REG]

Thanks for that Bill,yes my bike is chain drive. I may end up machining the boss on the nut as I don't really want to machine the inner primary starter mount down.

[billbuilds]

     I am happy to try to help. Sorry that a solution wasn't closer at hand. No, you really don't want to machine the starter drive housing boss on the inner primary; was using that as an extreme example of what it'd take to move the jackshaft over.  Agree that machining the jackshaft boss may be the only solution. Please let us know how you make out, I know we're all rooting for you.

[8080REG]

Will do Bill,I haven't heard back from BDL yet....I wonder if the clutch basket is the correct one?

[david lee]

id like to know the outcome of this problem. why should anything have to be machined ?

[billbuilds]

Will do Bill,I haven't heard back from BDL yet....I wonder if the clutch basket is the correct one?

BDL's EVB-3T-RB is the kit for belt final drive Shovels. Possible (though not really probable) that yours got mispacked or mislabeled. Did you hear back from the people at Ultima?

[8080REG]

I haven't been able to find tech contact on their website....just out of curiosity my primary measures 90mm in width across the top where the starter bolts,does this sound right? I've thought about a spacer inside the starter housing to push the shaft out but I will run the risk of the shaft not meshing enough and stripping the gear on that end out!

[rageglide]

Original primary?  1980 Sturgis had a belt final drive (and inner belt as well) and a different inner primary.

[billbuilds]

     rageglide is right, my brain was thinking FLH's  :  Here's a photo of a belt final inner primary. I know that the bolt pattern for the starter drive on the belt final is slightly wider than that of the chain finals and the chain final won't fit right - would be a noticeable mismatch. The shim fits into the starter drive bearing bore and then the reduction gear goes on. Thus you get full spline engagement on the jackshaft but you sacrifice just a little bit of the needle bearing support.

[JW113]

Well that's why I was asking what bike and what parts he is using.

A short summary is that final belt drive has a different inner primary, outer primary, starter drive housing (2 piece), starter jackshaft parts, and clutch shell (starter ring moved outward).

-JW

[Burnout]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The Sturgis model had some really different and non interchangeable parts. Very hard to find.

If you are not doing a restoration, it Might be easier to put a chain on it than finding the correct parts.

If you have some of the Sturgis parts they are golden. A partial Sturgis set might easily be worth a complete standard set.

[billbuilds]

Well that's why I was asking what bike and what parts he is using.

A short summary is that final belt drive has a different inner primary, outer primary, starter drive housing (2 piece), starter jackshaft parts, and clutch shell (starter ring moved outward).

-JW

     Yeah and the reduction gear in the belt final starter drive is a different spline configuration and will not interchange with a chain final jackshaft (which he apparently has).


What do we know for certain so far?


   OP has an aftermarket, one-piece starter/drive housing  that is designed for use with chain final drives.   

   OP has a chain final jackshaft assembly all of which is aftermarket. 

   OP has a chain final inner primary although it is an earlier sandcast inner and not a diecast which was being used in 1980. Dimensions are, to    my knowledge, the same.

   OP has a clutch basket designed for chain final drive Shovelheads

    Thus I think that we can rule out any possibility that the OP has any belt final primary parts on his bike.  But then, there I go thinking again. 

     

     

[8080REG]

Thanks for that summary Bill.....I'm very confident my bike has no belt drive parts on it. I have owned this bike for 38 yrs and know it very well,but I like to change things from time to time which is when the trouble starts trying to match after market parts to stockers!

[david lee]

aftermarket non american made crap

[rageglide]

   Aftermarket stuff can definitely be a crap shoot... Very difficult for the aftermarket to keep up with all the permutations that HD has had in the transition years. 

If 8080REG has owned it all its life and it's all original primary inner/outer etc then I'd say it's likely the replacement starter drive parts are wrong, or a mismatch to the inner belt drive clutch basket assy.  (stating the obvious)

[JW113]

I realize that I'm purt near blind anymore, but did not see this in any of the above posts. Will ask again, and then shut the hell up.

What year & model is this motorcycle?

-JW

[rageglide]

SWAG, 1980 80" ?   But he did say a 74 inner primary...

and you know I'm as blind as you... we need a third ;-)

[8080REG]

I've spoken with BDL and there is a difference in the ring gear placement  on their belt drive set ups compared to stock....so I've machined the shaft nut and all is good now. It would have been nice to know that at the beginning!  Thanks everyone for your input

[rykk]

Hi folks - I know this is an old post, but seems I have the same problem... I'm new to this forum, and need help.

I am rebuilding a 1980 FLH and installing a BDL 1.5" EVBB-3T-4 kit. I had to replace inner primary as original was cracked - bought a V-Twin repop. I have validated that the ring gear on new clutch hub is about 1/4-3/8" further out from inner hub surface than stock hub. Current extension of stock starter pinion gear will not fully engage. Have tried calling BDL tech support but no luck so far.

The brass shim that billbuilds showed looks like it would solve the problem, but was not included in my kit. I cannot seem to find it listed anywhere. Wondering if I could use brass washers? My concern with reducing the depth of the shaft nut is that the starter shaft could be pulled out of the drive gear.

8080REG, how much did you machine off of the shaft nut? Was this recommended by BDL?

Thanks, Rick.