Oil pumping out the catch can

[N-gin]

Long story short
S&Sblock with man o war
Thayer plate and pump
Drilled rocker support to .125
4.180 bore 4.3/8 stroke
Anything after 3400 RPM it fills the catch can and down the side of the bike in under 10 min on highway. If over 4000 RPM it will fill it in under 4 minutes.

Do u guys think I need to drill the rocker plate bigger? I'm thinking it is not draining fast enough.
It's a new build and I just noticed after a highway cruise some time ago. Don't go on highway much cause all the streets are 55 and country road. But seems Everytime I go to highway it happens. This is the 3 time on the highway and third time it's done it, so I'm chalking it up to rpm. My gearing is 3.05.
Too many good parts in this engine to list. Hoban did the block for Dyna oiling.
Thoughts?

[N-gin]

I will add if riding around town I have no issues. And only water comes out of catch can, with just a hint of oil near the end of draining the can.

[Ohio HD]

I have the same size holes in the rocker supports, it should be more than enough. What type of oil return pass at the base of the cylinder, o-ring or a base gasket?

[Coff 06]

Maybe try lowering your oil level 1/2 quart.       Coff 06

[rigidthumper]

Check the leakdown, just to make sure it's a venting thing, not a blowby thing?

[Thermodyne]

How much oil are you pumping to the top of the motor?  Its either too much oil as the rpms come up.  Sumping preventing the oil from draining ( doubt that with a three stage pump) or its building blow by as the rpms go up.

With those big bores the piston skirts, or lack of become an issue.  Piston fit become critical.  If the skirt clearance loosens up you can get some rocking and loose the ring seal.  Might want to plumb in a gauge on that breather system and watch the pressures. 

[N-gin]

/quote]

I have the .030 cometic

Maybe try lowering your oil level 1/2 quart.       Coff 06

I already run it one notch from the bottom of the dipstick. this last time I know it was right in the middle of the crosshatch area and that was after warm sitting for a couple of minutes. I may try to lower it some more but this is a dyna it doesn't hold much to begin with.

Check the leakdown, just to make sure it's a venting thing, not a blowby thing?

oh man don't say that. I'll check, I have to leak down gauge, mine is in storage because of the move to Georgia. I do have a compression tester though not the same.

[N-gin]

How much oil are you pumping to the top of the motor?  Its either too much oil as the rpms come up.  Sumping preventing the oil from draining ( doubt that with a three stage pump) or its building blow by as the rpms go up.

With those big bores the piston skirts, or lack of become an issue.  Piston fit become critical.  If the skirt clearance loosens up you can get some rocking and loose the ring seal.  Might want to plumb in a gauge on that breather system and watch the pressures.

That's an idea about the gauge...
You made me think of something.
Do you guys think the breather tubes are too small? I bought the HPI external breather adapters and they have very small nipples. I did drill them a tad bigger cause they looked offley small to begin with. To put it to perspective I pushed on a 1/4 hard air line used for truck air brakes.

[FLDavetrain]

How much oil are you pumping to the top of the motor?  Its either too much oil as the rpms come up.  Sumping preventing the oil from draining ( doubt that with a three stage pump) or its building blow by as the rpms go up.

With those big bores the piston skirts, or lack of become an issue.  Piston fit become critical.  If the skirt clearance loosens up you can get some rocking and loose the ring seal.  Might want to plumb in a gauge on that breather system and watch the pressures.

That's an idea about the gauge...
You made me think of something.
Do you guys think the breather tubes are too small? I bought the HPI external breather adapters and they have very small nipples. I did drill them a tad bigger cause they looked offley small to begin with. To put it to perspective I pushed on a 1/4 hard air line used for truck air brakes.

Absolutely that could be the problem. Been there done that with issues surrounding the hpi external breathers. 1/4 inch hose is so far breathing better for my 124 dyna but if it shows stuffed up signs again I'll contact Jimmy for a different stand off and nipple size.

[Ajayrk]

*

[No Cents]

  I run 3/8" breather hoses on my 124 over to the catch can.
These bigger motors have to breath.
Have you noticed any addition crank pressure? Is the dip stick hard to get out once the engine is up to full running temp?

[attach=0,msg1296959]

[N-gin]

  I run 3/8" breather hoses on my 124 over to the catch can.
These bigger motors have to breath.
Have you noticed any addition crank pressure? Is the dip stick hard to get out once the engine is up to full running temp?

[attach=0,msg1296959]

Oil cap is tough to get to when hot due to exhaust routing.
These should have any pressure, right.
I haven't done this but with the old build when I had 3/8 air hose on the breather system I would have vacuum in the crankcase if I just run it shut it off and then pull the drain plug for the crankcase it would actually have vacuum. I did a video on YouTube about it. This new build I haven't noticed any vacuum in the engine I'll have to call HPI for sure.

[N-gin]

Okay I talked to Jimmy at HPI.
he said that he's got he's done a couple of breathers the stamp steel ones from the Harley dealership that were assembled incorrectly. These are new parts off the shelf so if anyone is experiencing this please check the orientation of your breather it may be backwards. I'll be opening up my engine and checking the breather orientation thanks guys for all your input I'll let you guys know what I find.

[Ohio HD]

Blow into the vent hose. If you can, then they're in backwards. If not, they're ok.

[BVHOG]

Okay I talked to Jimmy at HPI.
he said that he's got he's done a couple of breathers the stamp steel ones from the Harley dealership that were assembled incorrectly. These are new parts off the shelf so if anyone is experiencing this please check the orientation of your breather it may be backwards. I'll be opening up my engine and checking the breather orientation thanks guys for all your input I'll let you guys know what I find.

They are all assembled incorrectly when shipped from Harley, the flapper valve is in backwards. It bit me once and just bit another one of my customers a couple weeks back again.  But if this is the issue then I can't see how oil can get out of the breather system at all.

[1workinman]

How much oil are you pumping to the top of the motor?  Its either too much oil as the rpms come up.  Sumping preventing the oil from draining ( doubt that with a three stage pump) or its building blow by as the rpms go up.

With those big bores the piston skirts, or lack of become an issue.  Piston fit become critical.  If the skirt clearance loosens up you can get some rocking and loose the ring seal.  Might want to plumb in a gauge on that breather system and watch the pressures.

That's an idea about the gauge...
You made me think of something.
Do you guys think the breather tubes are too small? I bought the HPI external breather adapters and they have very small nipples. I did drill them a tad bigger cause they looked offley small to begin with. To put it to perspective I pushed on a 1/4 hard air line used for truck air brakes.

That what I run on by 12 street glide also . Not sure exactly the correct name for it. I made my fittings that screw into my heads by silver soldering the fitting together to make what I wanted and heated up the line and pressed them on the barb , added SS checks to them on . I added the breather that Ray did to his and also used the air line to those fittings also . Ran that line up with the SS check  and over to  the chain . My motor has around 5k on it and used very little . That line is black and really tough . I run my oil about 4 to 5 dots low on the fill

[N-gin]

This is the front cylinder

[N-gin]

Intake looks clean.
There was some oil residue on the intake but not behind the trottlebody. I'm thinking it was from the oil pouring out of the catch can and soaking the air filter
So it looks like it's put together correctly.
I'm stumped.
Oil level is one inch on dip stick. So it is a third the way up

[N-gin]

Is that gasket suppose the overhang like this?
That doesn't look right.

[dynabagger]

Blow-by? Have you done a leak down test?

[N-gin]

Not directly.
The catch can puffed very little out the filter.
I'll have to locate a gauge.

[pwmorris]

For sure, you have to start at zero, which means a leak down.
If all is good, get to work.

So this is a 120"? 117"?
11-1 CR or less?
Where are you venting this motor?
Are you running one way check valves on your venting?
Is oil tank vented?
Are heads vented? If so, where, how?
Have you dumped your crankcase to see how much oil is in there?
At 120" and up, and healthy comp, I would never just trust my stock internal breathing systems (especially those tiny drain holes) to solve my pressure/venting problems.

I run a quart low, but I spin mine up more than most.
The reason you don't see anything putting around town is that at moderate speed and gearing, the motor is not being tested under load.
Hard launches, hi rpm shifts, and hi speed freeway stuff exposes your weaknesses-and that bigger air/oil pressure must go somewhere, and must be addressed.
Breathe, breathe, breathe.....

[rredneckn2]

For sure, you have to start at zero, which means a leak down.
If all is good, get to work.

So this is a 120"? 117"?
11-1 CR or less?
Where are you venting this motor?
Are you running one way check valves on your venting?
Is oil tank vented?
Are heads vented? If so, where, how?
Have you dumped your crankcase to see how much oil is in there?
At 120" and up, and healthy comp, I would never just trust my stock internal breathing systems (especially those tiny drain holes) to solve my pressure/venting problems.

I run a quart low, but I spin mine up more than most.
The reason you don't see anything putting around town is that at moderate speed and gearing, the motor is not being tested under load.
Hard launches, hi rpm shifts, and hi speed freeway stuff exposes your weaknesses-and that bigger air/oil pressure must go somewhere, and must be addressed.
Breathe, breathe, breathe.....

PW just summed it up.

[Kllongbrake]

PW, what do the check valves on the breather hoses accomplish? Isn't the umbrella stopping any reverse airflow? 

[N-gin]

For sure, you have to start at zero, which means a leak down.
If all is good, get to work.

So this is a 120"? 117"?
11-1 CR or less?
Where are you venting this motor?
Are you running one way check valves on your venting?
Is oil tank vented?
Are heads vented? If so, where, how?
Have you dumped your crankcase to see how much oil is in there?
At 120" and up, and healthy comp, I would never just trust my stock internal breathing systems (especially those tiny drain holes) to solve my pressure/venting problems.

I run a quart low, but I spin mine up more than most.
The reason you don't see anything putting around town is that at moderate speed and gearing, the motor is not being tested under load.
Hard launches, hi rpm shifts, and hi speed freeway stuff exposes your weaknesses-and that bigger air/oil pressure must go somewhere, and must be addressed.
Breathe, breathe, breathe.....

Motor is a 120" with 4.375 stroke
Compression is close to 12:1 cranked 225 in Florida according to Wes B.
It is vented to a catch can located to the front of the bike attachched to the down tubes. About an inch or 2 above the breathers for the head. No check valves in the hoses. I have 2 separate hoses, one for each head. Hoses are hard line plastic 1/4 inch. I did drill the nipples on the HPinc breathers. Oil catch is vented at the top to atmosphere.

I'll drain the crank case.

One note/question:
If I was getting blow by wouldn't the oil be black?
It's still tan color with some hard miles, about 2000. Not a lot but maybe enough to turn it black if rings not seated.

[PoorUB]

PW, what do the check valves on the breather hoses accomplish? Isn't the umbrella stopping any reverse airflow?

Probably referring to any additional venting, like a vent hose out of the oil tank. Any extra venting should have a one way check to let air out, but not in.

[pwmorris]

PW, what do the check valves on the breather hoses accomplish? Isn't the umbrella stopping any reverse airflow?

Probably referring to any additional venting, like a vent hose out of the oil tank. Any extra venting should have a one way check to let air out, but not in.

Yes.
A 120" at 12:5 is huffing it pretty good.
Not ever run the Thayer pump-no opinion there (is there anything about this pump and set up that you missed? O rings, gaskets, pump set up, etc?).
3.08 total gearing....that's nothing. Even it freeway speed, that's not much rpm at all-I run 3.48-so I am looking at additional air speed hi mph volume and pressure in, not rpm in and of itself (I'm guessing only 2,800 at 70 mph?).
If leakdown numbers are good, make sure Total oil in system is 1/2 to 1 qt low.
That means in case, in filter, lines, etc. then get the lower number.
May have to drain everything and start from scratch. I have seen guys think they are running low, but the oil is all over in the system, and they really aren't. Stock HD umbrella system is fine for a 70 hp stocker......
I "T" my head breathers, then to a one way check valve-then to catch can with vented hose to atmosphere (you have this area nailed except for the check valve). I run additional venting but for you, start with this set up perfectly set up for now.
A reverse test might be worth it. Since external head breathers are your only additional venting- block them off, make sure catch can is fully dumped, and hit the freeway and hammer it a bit getting on the slab. Ride a bit, then back to the garage, and check can.
More? Less dumping.?
You need to keep testing but have seen this on several set ups before, and it's a lack of the combo of oil, air, and pressure not returning fast enough from top end. It doesn't catch up fast enough from what is being forced up there at load, and then that additional pooled oil pressure is releasing/dumped into the head breather hoses, and dumping into the can.
I had a scary situation happen at Phoenix at a drag race. My 3 stage pump wasn't set up correctly and no where near pumped the oil fast enough. By the time I did a burnout, launched and went down the track (8,000 rpms), oil filled the top end, dumped-poured into the catch can, and sprayed up to the vent by my tank, and sprayed me with hot oil at a buck forty. Barely could see, and luckily got to the return lane-in one piece.

[rageglide]

Everything pwmorris stated   

Speaking of oil in the top end.   How much is too much?  Drag bikes run zero oil other than a few squirts of lube to the rockers, but they only run the engine for a 1/8 or 1/4 mile.

I run an SE cam plate/oil pump plus S&S travel limited lifters and my top end runs relatively 'dry'.  It's not flooded.  I always open up the vents on my builds, it just seems natural.  I would guess folks that have a lot of carry over are overwhelming the rocker box drains.  The cam plate and lifters play a role in limiting the oil to the top end.  Worn out bushings and shafts for the rockers would also allow more oil into the rocker box.  This isn't meant to be critical to N-gin.   But if to much oil is pooling in the rocker boxes it will exit the breather.  IMO

[dynabagger]

In my case I have drilled the rocker support drains 0.125", I also use a DT pump. I keep my oil to maybe 0.250" below the full mark on my dyna dipstick. No oil carry over in my catch can. I did a recent trip from Phoenix to Vancouver BC. Only water and some yellow puke to empty every two days worth of riding.
I have about 25000km on this build. Lucky I guess but I've been through the catch can over flow previously and it's not pretty. My wife's left shoe can attest to that.

[N-gin]

Thank you for the info guys.
I'll locate a gauge and do some more testing. Slow motion for now, got a lot on my plate and unfortunately bike is a back burner.
I'll get back to you guys
Thanks