Can an ECM be changed to avoid warranty refusal?

Started by Ken R, May 31, 2019, 08:47:35 AM

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Ken R

I haven't had a bike that wasn't tuned using Power Vision in something like 10 years (3 motorcycles).  Now that the Motor Company voids warranties if they find that the ECM has been tuned by an unauthorized device, I'm afraid to have mine tuned.  It's under warranty for the next 5-1/2 years and my experience with the extended warranty has been fabulous on my previous two motors. 

I'm trying to learn all I can before buying a license for my PV.   I have time scheduled with my tuner on Monday.

I was wondering, could a person buy a spare ECM and simply put it into the motorcycle before taking it for any warranty work?  Do they come with the current tune? 

Currently, my motor is tuned using Screamin Eagle Pro tuner from the dealership.  Question #2:  Can the "canned" tunes for a Pro Tuner be modified?

Hope this is the right forum.  I put it here because this is M8-relative and not general tuning-relative conversation. 

Ken

remington007

The ECU stores vehicle mileage, Its own ID number as well as the serial number of the bike. (Who know what else) Now if you buy a new ECU it would need to be flashed by the dealer and married to the rest of the bike. Pre can-buss married to the TSSM. I think it would be a hassle to switch back and forth not to mention the mileage deal.

Ohio HD

Just doing that would probably void the warranty. As stated, they would know anyway.

rigidthumper

SE tunes have limited adjustment, and will keep you within MOCO/ESP warranty guidelines, as long as it's registered by the selling dealer on the SWR. If you want to keep the warranty, follow their rules.
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

Coyote


BVHOG

Quote from: rigidthumper on May 31, 2019, 10:43:50 AM
SE tunes have limited adjustment, and will keep you within MOCO/ESP warranty guidelines, as long as it's registered by the selling dealer on the SWR. If you want to keep the warranty, follow their rules.

That pretty much sums it up, when we mod our bikes then shouldn't we ourselves or our builders take some warranty responsibility?
If you don't have a sense of humor you probably have no sense at all.

PoorUB

I have never understood why HD would warranty a modified motorcycle to begin with!

I just take may chances. If I had to ride a completely stock HD, I wouldn't.
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

jrgreene1968

Quote from: PoorUB on May 31, 2019, 02:57:26 PM
I have never understood why HD would warranty a modified motorcycle to begin with!

I just take may chances. If I had to ride a completely stock HD, I wouldn't.

I agree. Back when programmers started making big power on diesel pickups, all the companies were trying to hide there footprint so as not to void warranty. Kinda hard to expect Cummins to warranty a engine you just added 200 hp to

Ohio HD

Quote from: Coyote on May 31, 2019, 10:52:00 AM
Quote from: rigidthumper on May 31, 2019, 10:43:50 AM
If you want to keep the warranty, follow their rules.

:up:

:up:    :up:   

And that's why I've never bought a new HD, and probably never will. I'd void the warranty within a year or sooner. If I did make changes, then I own the changes and the bike. 

98fxstc

Steve Cole says TTS leaves no footprint when the oem tune is returned to the ecm.
Apparently not so with other flash tuners.
Your bike is going to be running pretty crappy when you take it in though.

Ken R

Quote from: PoorUB on May 31, 2019, 02:57:26 PM
I have never understood why HD would warranty a modified motorcycle to begin with!

I just take may chances. If I had to ride a completely stock HD, I wouldn't.


The extended warranty purchases are a profit center for them. 

Apparently if you tune your motor with PowerVision, you're probably going to have voided the entire powertrain warranty.   That kind of sucks.  Mechanical things break; not necessarily because of a tune. 

I haven't had a motor that wasn't tuned for at least 10 to 12 years.  It's going to hard to refrain to protect my warranty and extended service plan.   
The canned maps don't take into account variances in components (like the injectors).  It gave me a good feeling knowing that my tunes were made using the components on my motor, not some lab components. 

So I'm thinking that tuners like PowerVision and TTS are going to be a thing of the past.  That there may not be enough owners of new motorcycles that want to risk their warranties that cost thousands.  And with the two major problems that the M8 engines are having (sumping and oil transfer from the transmission to the primary) the warranty seems to be very important. 

To that end, I wonder if a refused extended warranty because of non-Harley tuner can be terminated with unused portion being returned to the purchaser. 






Ken R

Quote from: 98fxstc on May 31, 2019, 05:45:38 PM
Steve Cole says TTS leaves no footprint when the oem tune is returned to the ecm.
Apparently not so with other flash tuners.
Your bike is going to be running pretty crappy when you take it in though.

Can we trust that? 

And if they can do it, why can't Dynojet? 

Ohio HD

The truth, I feel it's just being dishonest anyway. You buy something that has a warranty with conditions, and by buying it you agree to those conditions. Even if what is stated in warranty isn't what is believed to be a cause to another issue, you still agree when you buy it.

kd

Quote from: Ken R on May 31, 2019, 05:49:12 PM
Quote from: 98fxstc on May 31, 2019, 05:45:38 PM
Steve Cole says TTS leaves no footprint when the oem tune is returned to the ecm.
Apparently not so with other flash tuners.
Your bike is going to be running pretty crappy when you take it in though.

Can we trust that? 

And if they can do it, why can't Dynojet? 


I believe it was Steve that fixed the MOCO's earlier tuner problems (possibly just before TTS tuners were around) and IIRC he may have also done the SE tuner for them.  He may have the background to understand the key.
KD

Rusticwater

Quote from: 98fxstc on May 31, 2019, 05:45:38 PM
Steve Cole says TTS leaves no footprint when the oem tune is returned to the ecm.
Apparently not so with other flash tuners.
Your bike is going to be running pretty crappy when you take it in though.
I've been reading this forum (and some others) pretty much on a daily basis for the past 9 years. As a TTS user (v1.57 :wink:) to the best of my knowledge, it's never been independently verified since Harley settled with the EPA.

I assume that if it were true, it would be a huge marketing advantage that would be touted at every possibility...but that doesn't appear to be the case.

I've also read that regardless of the current state of the ECM, it can be detected if the ECM has ever been flashed, but maybe not necessarily by what.

It would be interesting to set up a controlled experiment to put these rumors to rest once and for all...

Support the Maine lobster industry

98fxstc

Quote from: Rusticwater on June 01, 2019, 05:08:29 AM
Quote from: 98fxstc on May 31, 2019, 05:45:38 PM
Steve Cole says TTS leaves no footprint when the oem tune is returned to the ecm.
Apparently not so with other flash tuners.
Your bike is going to be running pretty crappy when you take it in though.
I've been reading this forum (and some others) pretty much on a daily basis for the past 9 years. As a TTS user (v1.57 :wink:) to the best of my knowledge, it's never been independently verified since Harley settled with the EPA.

I assume that if it were true, it would be a huge marketing advantage that would be touted at every possibility...but that doesn't appear to be the case.

I've also read that regardless of the current state of the ECM, it can be detected if the ECM has ever been flashed, but maybe not necessarily by what.

It would be interesting to set up a controlled experiment to put these rumors to rest once and for all...

I think Steve Cole knows more about the HD ecm than anyone
kd is pretty close to the true facts
Don't need a controlled experiment
it will only take one to prove him wrong

Don't see the need for a controlled experiment

eddfive

I just went through this on a 2018 CVO. The Power Vision can put the stock flash back in the bike to get around the warranty. If you have a Street Tuner, and the bike has been flashed with it, Power Vision allows you to put the exact Cal ID that is in the ECU back in. The new Digital Tech screens they look for will show ST cal ID, that the bike was tuned with Street Tuner and will give the flash date. The mistake I made was putting newer ST cal ID in the PV and when dealer/MOCO read screens the 2018 CVO showed new ST ID plus not tuned and original factory flash date. If you do not have a Street Tuner as long as the factory cal id is used, it will show not tuned and original flash date, and the Power Train Warranty will not be voided. The MOCO has updated the Digital Tech software n the last year or so to look for more stuff. I have confirmed all of this with DynoJet as well.

rigidthumper

Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

Slider1950

Quote from: eddfive on June 01, 2019, 06:45:25 AM
I just went through this on a 2018 CVO. The Power Vision can put the stock flash back in the bike to get around the warranty. If you have a Street Tuner, and the bike has been flashed with it, Power Vision allows you to put the exact Cal ID that is in the ECU back in. The new Digital Tech screens they look for will show ST cal ID, that the bike was tuned with Street Tuner and will give the flash date. The mistake I made was putting newer ST cal ID in the PV and when dealer/MOCO read screens the 2018 CVO showed new ST ID plus not tuned and original factory flash date. If you do not have a Street Tuner as long as the factory cal id is used, it will show not tuned and original flash date, and the Power Train Warranty will not be voided. The MOCO has updated the Digital Tech software n the last year or so to look for more stuff. I have confirmed all of this with DynoJet as well.
.    ????

FSG

QuoteCan an ECM be changed to avoid warranty refusal?

Yes, No, Maybe  .......  I've not looked into it, but if done wouldn't that then be a case of Fraud?

And if you read through the Case 1:16-cv-01687-EGS  USofA   vs   HD and Subsidiaries  noting what HD are required to do and report, HD is going to take all steps available to then to see if a bike/ECM has been modified/changed and refuse warranty accordingly and in doing so ensuring their collective arsms (management) stay out of the wringer.

For me I either leave the bike stock OR just kiss goodbye to the warranty and modify/tune away.

   

98fxstc

Quote from: FSG on June 01, 2019, 06:19:17 PM
QuoteCan an ECM be changed to avoid warranty refusal?

Yes, No, Maybe  .......  I've not looked into it, but if done wouldn't that then be a case of Fraud?

And if you read through the Case 1:16-cv-01687-EGS  USofA   vs   HD and Subsidiaries  noting what HD are required to do and report, HD is going to take all steps available to then to see if a bike/ECM has been modified/changed and refuse warranty accordingly and in doing so ensuring their collective arsms (management) stay out of the wringer.

For me I either leave the bike stock OR just kiss goodbye to the warranty and modify/tune away.



:up: :up: :up:
Agree 100%

I like to improve the performance of any bike that I own and make it go
but in saying that, I have never had a new bike with warranty to worry about.
I guess it is becoming more of an issue now with the M8's and the known problems that they have , particularly the sumping which has destroyed engines.

BVHOG

Quote from: Ohio HD on May 31, 2019, 05:50:41 PM
The truth, I feel it's just being dishonest anyway. You buy something that has a warranty with conditions, and by buying it you agree to those conditions. Even if what is stated in warranty isn't what is believed to be a cause to another issue, you still agree when you buy it.

Why is this so hard to understand?  You buy it, you mod it for yourself and it's yours after that.   The problem I see is there is definitely an issue with the M8 oiling system/design. All the electronics in the world won't change that engineering flaw in the hard parts. In fact most modifications are making these bikes more reliable not less but then again how is the MoCo supposed to know which is being done correctly and which is not.   Maybe it needs to come down to anti tamper tags, maybe even heat patches to see if you overheated in traffic to deny warranty.  Part of the allure of the Harley Davidson motorcycle is to be able to personalize it for yourself. The MoCo has made their living off this for years and in that time have paid many bogus warranty claims just to keep good public relations. Taking this away right or wrong will cost sales.
If you don't have a sense of humor you probably have no sense at all.

Ohio HD

Quote from: BVHOG on June 05, 2019, 12:33:44 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on May 31, 2019, 05:50:41 PM
The truth, I feel it's just being dishonest anyway. You buy something that has a warranty with conditions, and by buying it you agree to those conditions. Even if what is stated in warranty isn't what is believed to be a cause to another issue, you still agree when you buy it.

Why is this so hard to understand?  You buy it, you mod it for yourself and it's yours after that.   The problem I see is there is definitely an issue with the M8 oiling system/design. All the electronics in the world won't change that engineering flaw in the hard parts. In fact most modifications are making these bikes more reliable not less but then again how is the MoCo supposed to know which is being done correctly and which is not.   Maybe it needs to come down to anti tamper tags, maybe even heat patches to see if you overheated in traffic to deny warranty.  Part of the allure of the Harley Davidson motorcycle is to be able to personalize it for yourself. The MoCo has made their living off this for years and in that time have paid many bogus warranty claims just to keep good public relations. Taking this away right or wrong will cost sales.

I don't know either. I'm all for making the bike run better, cooler, etc. But I realize it's my baby once I do that.

I just bought a new truck, I was on a RAM truck forum, just looking around to see if there were any bugs waiting to happen based on others experiences. Guys were pointing me to this tuner, and these headers, and what ever you can think of. All of these things will void warranty, and I'm not interested anyway.

My bikes are my toys, and I would do what ever I pleased with them, but I wouldn't expect the MOCO to take care of issues once I cross the bridge to modified against warranty.

JMHD

Quote from: Ken R on May 31, 2019, 05:48:28 PM
Quote from: PoorUB on May 31, 2019, 02:57:26 PM
I have never understood why HD would warranty a modified motorcycle to begin with!

I just take may chances. If I had to ride a completely stock HD, I wouldn't.


The extended warranty purchases are a profit center for them. 

Apparently if you tune your motor with PowerVision, you're probably going to have voided the entire powertrain warranty.   That kind of sucks.  Mechanical things break; not necessarily because of a tune. 

I haven't had a motor that wasn't tuned for at least 10 to 12 years.  It's going to hard to refrain to protect my warranty and extended service plan.   
The canned maps don't take into account variances in components (like the injectors).  It gave me a good feeling knowing that my tunes were made using the components on my motor, not some lab components. 

So I'm thinking that tuners like PowerVision and TTS are going to be a thing of the past.  That there may not be enough owners of new motorcycles that want to risk their warranties that cost thousands.  And with the two major problems that the M8 engines are having (sumping and oil transfer from the transmission to the primary) the warranty seems to be very important. 

To that end, I wonder if a refused extended warranty because of non-Harley tuner can be terminated with unused portion being returned to the purchaser.
If your extended warranty is denied or cancelled because of an aftermarket tuner or modification you do not get your warranty plan money back.

Hossamania

I'm not a fan of extended warranties. I've never collected on any, never really needed one. I know, some have benefitted from them, but my guess is the majority do not.
I had one on a Jeep back in '85, you'd think that one would have been a good call, $1500 for five years. I think I collected about $350 in repairs. It had a $50 deductable, that jeep ate u-joints, they fixed them every time, $50 per u-joint, a day in the shop, a ride back and forth, pain in the ass. Turns out I could do them myself in an hour for $9.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.