New build - fouled plugs and rough running

[BVHOG]

100% agree with Scott (and that don't happen often)  Don't make a mountain out of a mole hill.

[Pete_Vit]

well I'm glad I don't have a bore scope then, my untrained eye, looking at pic 3 and 4, looks bad, I guess I'm the guy 98fxstc
"Most of these guys know what they are talking about.
One doesn't." is talking about 

[Hossamania]

well I'm glad I don't have a bore scope then, my untrained eye, looking at pic 3 and 4, looks bad, I guess I'm the guy 98fxstc
"Most of these guys know what they are talking about.
One doesn't." is talking about 

Hmm, I thought it was me.
To the OP, tying into this and your other thread, a good plan of action would be to get it on a Dyno and get it tuned. Heat cycles can be done, the motor monitored, and the tune adjusted immediately to prevent further damage.
Then, if it really is found to have issues, it can be dealt with. It may not be an issue with the work, it seemed more a tuning  issue.
But that's just me, and again, I may be the one mentioned that doesn't know what he's talking about, definitely not the first time.

[Scotty]

The bottom line in this thread and regardless of peoples opinion which will always vary, none of us were there when he assembled it.
The OP has had a few problems along the way and only he knows if he truly has skipped or missed steps that some people just do not even thinking about it.
Not cleaning the bores properly can reduce piston ring life and sealing quite dramatically, however the motor will still run.
A broken or jammed oil ring and the motor will still run.
Then again a piston circlip could not be seated and pop out and ruin his entire day.
Too many variables and not enough information and I didn't build it or supply parts so it's hard to judge and to help.

[Mirrmu]

What information has been provided that there is anything wrong with build,

Running rough?

[Scotty]

What information has been provided that there is anything wrong with build,

Running rough?

No there has been 3 or 4 threads so if you have not read them all then you probably don't understand what is going on.
You need to go read all his threads from this build from injectors not working to cams possibly not installed correctly to pushrods not installed properly.
Read them all and form an opinion because just like backsides we all have one and they all smell just as bad.

[Admiral Akbar]

By all means go for it.. We can all learn something here.

[98fxstc]

well I'm glad I don't have a bore scope then, my untrained eye, looking at pic 3 and 4, looks bad, I guess I'm the guy 98fxstc
"Most of these guys know what they are talking about.
One doesn't." is talking about 

Hmm, I thought it was me.
To the OP, tying into this and your other thread, a good plan of action would be to get it on a Dyno and get it tuned. Heat cycles can be done, the motor monitored, and the tune adjusted immediately to prevent further damage.
Then, if it really is found to have issues, it can be dealt with. It may not be an issue with the work, it seemed more a tuning  issue.
But that's just me, and again, I may be the one mentioned that doesn't know what he's talking about, definitely not the first time.

Not you Pete or Hoss
His post has been removed
Referred to over-reaction after using a borescope for pics
I know if I had vertical lines showing in a cylinder, I would be having a good look at them

[Pete_Vit]

well I'm glad I don't have a bore scope then, my untrained eye, looking at pic 3 and 4, looks bad, I guess I'm the guy 98fxstc
"Most of these guys know what they are talking about.
One doesn't." is talking about 

Hmm, I thought it was me.
To the OP, tying into this and your other thread, a good plan of action would be to get it on a Dyno and get it tuned. Heat cycles can be done, the motor monitored, and the tune adjusted immediately to prevent further damage.
Then, if it really is found to have issues, it can be dealt with. It may not be an issue with the work, it seemed more a tuning  issue.
But that's just me, and again, I may be the one mentioned that doesn't know what he's talking about, definitely not the first time.

Not you Pete or Hoss
His post has been removed
Referred to over-reaction after using a borescope for pics
I know if I had vertical lines showing in a cylinder, I would be having a good look at them

I'd have no problem if it was me, I've only rebuilt 2 EVO motors in my life, If I had a borescope, I'd be going nuts I think, so I really don't have much experience, but that being said, I know what my jugs look like when I took 'em off and how they looked when I got them back from the machine shop, those pixs looked suspicious 
thanks 98fxstc! 

[BVHOG]

Do this simple test, pull out your borescope and look in any of your buddies factory untouched bikes and then tell us how you feel about yours.

[PoorUB]

It is together and running. I would get it tuned and ride it, but keep an eye on it. Pistons and cylinders are relatively inexpensive so if it starts burning oil, tear it down. Good chance there is nothing wrong and the bore scope is making it look worse than it is.

I put together a 107", broke a piston ring during assembly. I put 4,000 miles on the build before the oil consumption got simply terrible. I took a trip with it and was pouring in a quart of oil every 500 miles. Rode it home, tore it down and found the broken ring, big score in the cylinder, but never found the 1/2 long piece of missing oil ring. I was in a hurry as I had a big trip scheduled and replaced the cylinder an rings, pistons were good. Ran that build for 10,000 miles and it slowly started burning oil again. Tore it down but couldn't find any reason for the oil consumption. Put in a HD 96" to 103" big bore kit, stock 103" pistons and cylinders and it ran great. Found the broken oil ring in the oil filter and a chewed up oil pump that was still in one piece and pumping good pressure. No more oil issues. Blew a head gasket in Montana and traded it off on a new Limited! Cams, exhaust and a tune in the Limited and I am done. The heads will never come off!

[FXDBI]

It is together and running. I would get it tuned and ride it, but keep an eye on it. Pistons and cylinders are relatively inexpensive so if it starts burning oil, tear it down. Good chance there is nothing wrong and the bore scope is making it look worse than it is.

I put together a 107", broke a piston ring during assembly. I put 4,000 miles on the build before the oil consumption got simply terrible. I took a trip with it and was pouring in a quart of oil every 500 miles. Rode it home, tore it down and found the broken ring, big score in the cylinder, but never found the 1/2 long piece of missing oil ring. I was in a hurry as I had a big trip scheduled and replaced the cylinder an rings, pistons were good. Ran that build for 10,000 miles and it slowly started burning oil again. Tore it down but couldn't find any reason for the oil consumption. Put in a HD 96" to 103" big bore kit, stock 103" pistons and cylinders and it ran great. Found the broken oil ring in the oil filter and a chewed up oil pump that was still in one piece and pumping good pressure. No more oil issues. Blew a head gasket in Montana and traded it off on a new Limited! Cams, exhaust and a tune in the Limited and I am done. The heads will never come off!

So your telling us you had less than stellar results doing your own engine work and you wont be doing any more?   Engine work isn't really for most home handymen its best left to someone who has a good understanding of assembly work. You need the tools and knowledge to use them to do all the checks required and you can never be too clean.   Bob

[98fxstc]

Engine work isn't really for most home handymen its best left to someone who has a good understanding of assembly work. You need the tools and knowledge to use them to do all the checks required and you can never be too clean.   Bob

[Hilly13]

Engine work isn't really for most home handymen its best left to someone who has a good understanding of assembly work. You need the tools and knowledge to use them to do all the checks required and you can never be too clean.   Bob

As my old Apprentice Master used to say, cleanliness is next to godliness.
That bottom pic in the second lot shows, what looks to me anyway, a lot of oil in there, could explain the high CCP reading.

[PoorUB]

So your telling us you had less than stellar results doing your own engine work and you wont be doing any more?   Engine work isn't really for most home handymen its best left to someone who has a good understanding of assembly work. You need the tools and knowledge to use them to do all the checks required and you can never be too clean.   Bob

I literally have rebuilt hundreds of engines over the years and my 107" project was a lemon from day one. The cause of the oil burning from the second go-round was not obvious.  After the second rebuild the oil consumption was minor, practically none, it just got worse over time. It had to be ring seal. As I pulled the heads, did nothing to them and dropped them on the 103" and it did not use a significant amount of oil. Pretty sure the head gasket was caused from a pulled stud. When I torqued the heads when it went back to a 103" one stud torqued funny, it just didn't feel right. I went back and re-torqued before finished the top end and it torqued fine so I ignored it. I should have listened to my gut feeling.

Some of the issues were the result of being rushed as I had plans in place to travel. The one rebuild started Monday evening, ordered parts next day air Tuesday, put it together Wednesday, 100 mile ride Thursday evening and a oil change, then pack up Friday night and headed to North Carolina Saturday AM, all while working 10 hour days at my job.

Also, I am far from a handy man and have rebuilt everything from weed trimmers to car engines and diesel truck and tractor engines with extremely few failures. I was trained as a heavy equipment mechanic, but did not pursue it, but did work for friend over the years. My Yamaha R1 I have talked about was rebuilt from a collection of used parts. It doesn't use oil and runs like a top. About 6,000 miles of abuse and it keeps on ticking. My buddy gives me crap about it. He tells me I can't build Harleys, but I can slap together a 1000 CC sport bike engine with used parts and it runs like a top. I did a 95" on my '05 Ultra that ran like a champ.

Bob, I am sure you have never had one that just wouldn't cooperate! All of you builds were 100%, every time!

[Ohio HD]

Harley Davidson cylinders are not easy to bore, then finish hone and keep relatively straight and round. That's a lot of the problem with builds. Only use guys that have bored literally thousands of cylinders well. There aren't as many as you might thing out there.

[PoorUB]

Harley Davidson cylinders are not easy to bore, then finish hone and keep relatively straight and round. That's a lot of the problem with builds. Only use guys that have bored literally thousands of cylinders well. There aren't as many as you might thing out there.

I agree, Especially when opening them up to a 107". Mine were bored by one of the best, right here on this group.

[Admiral Akbar]

Harley Davidson cylinders are not easy to bore, then finish hone and keep relatively straight and round. That's a lot of the problem with builds. Only use guys that have bored literally thousands of cylinders well. There aren't as many as you might thing out there.

Well that's pretty nieve.  I've probably only bored 300 to 500 cylinders and while I've done less than 50 HDs, there really ain't any art.  It's simple machine work. Nothing else.. It's all about getting the right finish and clearance. Nothing more.

[FXDBI]

So your telling us you had less than stellar results doing your own engine work and you wont be doing any more?   Engine work isn't really for most home handymen its best left to someone who has a good understanding of assembly work. You need the tools and knowledge to use them to do all the checks required and you can never be too clean.   Bob

I literally have rebuilt hundreds of engines over the years and my 107" project was a lemon from day one. The cause of the oil burning from the second go-round was not obvious.  After the second rebuild the oil consumption was minor, practically none, it just got worse over time. It had to be ring seal. As I pulled the heads, did nothing to them and dropped them on the 103" and it did not use a significant amount of oil. Pretty sure the head gasket was caused from a pulled stud. When I torqued the heads when it went back to a 103" one stud torqued funny, it just didn't feel right. I went back and re-torqued before finished the top end and it torqued fine so I ignored it. I should have listened to my gut feeling.

Some of the issues were the result of being rushed as I had plans in place to travel. The one rebuild started Monday evening, ordered parts next day air Tuesday, put it together Wednesday, 100 mile ride Thursday evening and a oil change, then pack up Friday night and headed to North Carolina Saturday AM, all while working 10 hour days at my job.

Also, I am far from a handy man and have rebuilt everything from weed trimmers to car engines and diesel truck and tractor engines with extremely few failures. I was trained as a heavy equipment mechanic, but did not pursue it, but did work for friend over the years. My Yamaha R1 I have talked about was rebuilt from a collection of used parts. It doesn't use oil and runs like a top. About 6,000 miles of abuse and it keeps on ticking. My buddy gives me crap about it. He tells me I can't build Harleys, but I can slap together a 1000 CC sport bike engine with used parts and it runs like a top. I did a 95" on my '05 Ultra that ran like a champ.

Bob, I am sure you have never had one that just wouldn't cooperate! All of you builds were 100%, every time!

Is all good Poor, I have had my failures over the years. Did a in frame rebuild on a old tractor when I was 13 with a 76yr old mechanic.  Almost 64 now worked 40+ years has a millwright. Overhauled more things than I can remember and still learning, still make mistakes has well. Learn and continue is my motto.   Bob

[Hossamania]

I'm very interested to see how this turns out for the op.

[Mirrmu]

Have you started to disassemble?

[jls 64]

I'm very interested to see how this turns out for the op.

.me too!!

[Mirrmu]

would like to of seen a video and the plugs,

[BVHOG]

Harley Davidson cylinders are not easy to bore, then finish hone and keep relatively straight and round. That's a lot of the problem with builds. Only use guys that have bored literally thousands of cylinders well. There aren't as many as you might thing out there.

Well that's pretty nieve.  I've probably only bored 300 to 500 cylinders and while I've done less than 50 HDs, there really ain't any art.  It's simple machine work. Nothing else.. It's all about getting the right finish and clearance. Nothing more.

[chris.m.j]

I'm very interested to see how this turns out for the op.

Not great! I tore it down and just re-assembled and I've only done a 30s and 1min heat cycle but the plugs are fouled with oil (shiny black). I peaked in with the borescope and saw oily grime on the piston head. It looks like the same as the pics in a previous post so I think it was oil last time too and not soot. I assume the rough running is from spark plugs fouling and interrupting the spark. When I had it apart both exhaust ports and manifold pipe inlets were covered in a greasy black film.

I took the engine down all the way to the pistons and put new rings on it. I measured the end gaps, staggered the end gaps per instructions, and used a new ring compressor and they went on fairly easy. Replaced the cylinder base gasket and the cylinder deck dowel o-ring.

The cylinders look fine but I scrubbed them again in soapy water and wiped (and re-wiped) with ATF until clean. I put them on with a coat of oil in the bore. Put new cometic head gaskets on and torqued to spec (9-14-22-35-42ftlbs) and in sequence (see next post about sequence in the manual). Followed the manual for the rocker housing and rocker covers. Adjustable pushrods per instructions - top dead center compression with bleed down time for each.

I compression tested cold engine at 180psi which seems low. I put in about 4ml of oil and compression tested again and it was still 180psi.

What am I looking at:

Pushrod adjustment? Maybe cuz the compression is low but that shouldn't have anything to do with oil in the cylinder. I can re-adjust the pushrods just for the sake of it but I don't see what that will do for the oil.

Blow-by past the rings? Would the constant compression test with and without oil rule that out? If the rings were bad wouldn't the oil fix that?

What about ring seating? If I did a heat cycle before with the old rings would that mess anything up now with the new rings? Do you only have one shot at a heat cycle and if you mess it up do you have to replace the rings AND treat the cylinder again?

Is the head gasket messed up? I don't see any oil leaking for the two short runs I did. Can it leak in to the cylinder without leaking out? I followed the torque specs and did short-short-long-long but it's not clear if going front to back or back to front makes a difference. It looks like the figure of the cylinder head in the manual doesn't match the actual part. I'll post a pic in the next post.